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Red Pillers: Hey Ladies! That visceral disgust you feel in our presence means you want us. Bad.

Ladies love men in groups.
Ladies love men in groups.

What do women want? Dudes. In groups. Especially dudes who hate them.

That, in any case, seems to be the conclusion drawn by a blogger who calls himself Hipster Racist, and who seems to be a white supremacist of some kind. Anyway, he’s written a little post about the rise of Reddit’s  Red and Blue Pill Subreddits and how they illustrate the Mannerbund Effect, a theory that helps to explain just why it is that the ladies allegedly like getting up in men’s business so much.

Here’s how HR tells the story of the two subreddits:

Someone created a section of reddit called TheRedPill which is devoted to “game,” seduction and anti-feminism. Essentially, a group of young men comparing notes on their various romantic successes and failures, which for obvious reasons, include a lot of frustration and what some might call misogyny. … Some of these men talk about “gaming” women in the same sense you might talk about training a dog. Gaming bitches, they might even say.

Yeah, some might call that misogyny.

The men’s romantic advice to each other essentially boils down to: women are selfish and incapable of love, so never fall in love, just improve yourself, lift weights, make money, dress better, and the women will come running.

Yeah, some might call that misogyny too.

As if on cue, the women show up and create TheBluePill a section of reddit exclusively focused on mocking, shaming, and attacking TheRedPill with anti-male rhetoric just as critical and harsh and the anti-female rhetoric of TheRedPill.

Now, pretty much none of that is true. TheBluePill is populated by a lot of dudes as well as women and the subreddit is basically an elaborate parody of the Red Pill subreddit, punctuated by occasional serious posts when people there are too astonished by the misogyny to make jokes about it. Take a look. If you can find any sincere anti-male rhetoric within it, posted by a regular commenter and with net upvotes, I’ll literally mail you a dollar.

But what is so fascinating about the dynamic is this: the men exclusively discuss how to improve themselves, while the women exclusively discuss … how the men can improve themselves. Obviously, they have very different views of what “improvement” looks like, the men essentially say “be more macho” while they women essentially say “be less macho.”

Well, not exactly. The advice in The Blue Pill subreddit is really only implicit advice, and it isn’t so much “be less macho” as it is “don’t be a misogynistic, manipulative, rapey asshole who gets validation from a bunch of other misogynistic, manipulative, rapey assholes like those Red Pill dudes on Reddit.”

Anyway, so Mr. Hipster Racist thinks that what all this means is that the Blue Pill ladies want the Red Pill men, and want them bad.

The dynamic plays itself out, over and over again, constantly. A group of men get together – the Mannerbund is formed – and do something. The women then show up, watch the men, and either cheer them, or heckle them.

But when the boys get together, the one thing the girls cannot do is ignore them.

Mr. Racist refers us to the manosphere-famous video of the protests of the Warren Farrell talk at the University of Toronto from last year. He points us to one female protester who became notorious in the manosphere for shouting at one of Farrell’s male fans, declaring him to be a “fucking rape apologist, incest supporting, woman hating, fucking scum.”

To Mr. Racist, only one thing could be driving this much apparent hate: pure animal lust.

Look at the man, look at the woman, and look at how the woman is looking at the man. Look at her eyes.

You could cut that sexual tension with a knife.

No. Just no. Sometimes a “you fucking rape apologist” is just a “you fucking rape apologist.”

So, anyway, someone took the opportunity to post Mr. Racist’s reflections on the Mannerbund Effect to the Red Pill subreddit — well, ok, that “someone” was Mr. Racist himself — where it met with many huzzahs.

My favorite comment of the bunch comes– surprise! —  from Mr. Racist, posting as jack50s; it’s almost Penthouse Lettersesque in its sophomoric eroticism:

mannerbuynd

Later, Mr. Racist wandered into the Blue Pill subreddit, and quickly convinced himself that everyone there, including me, had the hots for him. (To be fair, I did kind of lead him on a little.)

catswatch

Huh. Apparently I’ve been awarded some sort of honorary Women’s Studies Degree from the Dean of Pompous Nazi Blogger University. That will help to ease the sting of rejection a little. A little. At least I have my cats.

204 replies on “Red Pillers: Hey Ladies! That visceral disgust you feel in our presence means you want us. Bad.”

Wow, I’ve had guys mistake just being polite as a come-on before, but never have I encountered anyone to mistake active dislike as a come-on…

lol again with that “tingle” stuff

At least they aren’t saying “wet” all the time. “Tingle” is pretty close in creepiness, though.

To clarify, I generally don’t actually have a problem with people saying “wet” in that context – it’s just that I feel very uncomfortable when I hear misogynists use it in their writing. I’m not sure why.

Same here, Aaliyah. Perhaps it’s because we know that they mean it in a degrading way because they have so much contempt for women with any kind of sexuality. Or maybe it’s because I don’t want these men anywhere near my sexuality (no no no no no) so I have a gut negative reaction when they use terms like “wet” or even “tingle”, which I’m perfectly fine with in other contexts.

@athywren

(My family have a habit of mispronouncing him as Benedict Cummerbund… it’s funny…. oh shush.)

Are you related to my fiancé? He has done the same thing. 🙂

I’m not thinking about these dudes all day long. Why waste that much energy when I can spend it on better things, like talk to my SO?

Did you hear Tom Martin’s attempting to make a documentary?

Imagine if he got Agent Orange to narrate it. That would be perfection.

Athywren, mannerbund is German for male bonding. I wonder why he chose German, was he too embarrassed to use English?

…..is this guy SHIPPING subreddits? Yes, he seriously is. Holy crap. I guess I’m just mainly surprised it’s not slash.

Given his entire argument, I can’t tell you how funny I find that Jack person reacting to “flirting” as if it were his kryptonite.

…..is this guy SHIPPING subreddits? Yes, he seriously is. Holy crap. I guess I’m just mainly surprised it’s not slash.

Now waiting on a Reddit-tan Doujinshi.
“Oh, Creepshots-senpai…”

Athywren, mannerbund is German for male bonding. I wonder why he chose German, was he too embarrassed to use English?

So he’s basically just saying community? And here I was thinking that it was a word to describe a complex relationship between two separate communities – the “male” community and the sane community. But he’s basically just doing the pseudo-intellectual thing of using a shiny new word that makes him sound smart. I wonder if he tells his mates to “check out the decolletage on that!” or if it’s wussy to use french words to sound smarter than he is. Ah well, I R shoxxor.

@Athywren

More specifically, I’ve been thinking about how the argument logically extends to abstinence being as bad as abortion, and wondering why the people who are so opposed to murdering babies through birth control are so completely in favour of murdering babies by not having sex at all. This is, of course, assuming that keeping an egg from being fertilized really is murdering a baby.
Now that really is amazing! Though, to be fair, I’ve probably only given it half an hour’s thought over the course of the day.

Then they might have to admit that some of the eggs are going to die, we cannot having thousands of babies each. Maybe I’m misunderstanding the whole ‘murding babies through birth control argument’ people make, but like, I just don’t get it.

“Now waiting on a Reddit-tan Doujinshi.
“Oh, Creepshots-senpai…”’

If you post this on Tumblr, someone will draw this.

“Tingle” used to be common currency on evo psych/game blogs about 5-7 years ago. It was used to refer to what happened to women’s privates in the presence of violent criminal alphas. Don’t know if they still use that one… Roissy loved it, iirc.

If I thought I could pass as male, I’d totally infiltrate one of these meetings all alpha dogging it, bro-ing it up, but then suddenly break out with “What if I told you…” [dun dun DUN] “…that GoldenEye was not a documentary.”

The refusal to produce human resources is unamerican unpatriotic and against godandcountry!

I did a little Googling on Männerbund and yeah, it’s a Nazi term. I am Jack’s complete lack of surprise.

I refuse to be bested by the evil denizens of WordPress!

“What if I told you…” [dun dun DUN] “…that GoldenEye was not a documentary.”

Say what?

There’s a tumblr blog devoted to Indifferent Cats in Amateur Porn; it is of course completely NSFW.

What if I told you I had cats? They Like to watch.

LMFAO! I’m using that one day!

I know this is random, but when I read, “Hipster Racist” I think of a zombie from days of old, quietly muttering to itself, “I was racist before it was mainstream”.

Nothing quite like engaging in sexytimes and realizing there is a giant grey cat STARING AT YOU. Thanks, Lilly, you little mood killer.

This is why Mr K has banned the furries from the bedroom.

Also, is it just me, or does Crossbow Dude in that pic look uncannily like Terry Jones?

@tedthefed

…..is this guy SHIPPING subreddits? Yes, he seriously is. Holy crap. I guess I’m just mainly surprised it’s not slash.

It’s like the Rule 34 of fandom: Someone out there ships it. No exceptions.

I was just looking for shots of Foyle and Milner in their lovely fedoras and saw … THERE IS ANOTHER SERIES OF FOYLE’S WAR BEING MADE

IT IS AIRING THIS YEAR

OMG OMG

(apologies for the caps but … Foyle’s War!!!)

@jain I fed the troll but I am stuck in moderation.

You pretty clearly fail to understand dominance and submission. These are desires, lusts, and loves which start off from a relationship. Disgust and contempt are not the basis of a relationship, they are the death of it.

As far as d/s and feminism, cool story bro. I have found feminists both friendly and hostile to BDSM in the same proportion as the general populace. Given a medium-size group of “lesbian feminists” the notion that some would not be D and S types seems silly. This is especially true if you know more than a few lesbians.

All I could think of was that anime Dance in the Vampire Bund. Well that and the huge question marks over my head. I thought college associations were supposed to be for education, didn’t realize that when it’s a group of women it is for “servicing men.” Yuck, just yuck.

Oh lord, this is funny (several regulars here have seen it already, I know) – Tom Martin making an ass of himself as usual over on Pharyngula, with this “documentary” he claims to be making. He is such a pathetic piece of work, truly.

I love it, I love it, I love it:

Tom Martin here.

Thanks for your interest in this documentary. I’ve had 300 crew applications so far, from people who seem to get it. Skeptics can apply too. If there are any humourously unrepentant gold-diggers reading this who’d like to co-host the experiment, that would be fun – or, if there are any gold-diggishness deniers – victim-feminist wets who simply don’t except women would ever gold dig, or who think that gold-digging exists because patriarchy – or who think that we should simply pretend gold-digging doesn’t exist – stand up now. Otherwise, sit down and watch the documentary without shooting the messenger too much – its very unbecoming.

PZ Myers, are you an expert on gender and humour? – because if you are, you can peer-review the experiment at the core of this documentary, along with the other expert in the field I ran it past who has already given it a thumbs up and expects my hypothesis to be supported.

You can follow developments with this documentary by subscribing, on youtube and twitter, @sexismbusters

This documentary will be stepping around the victim-feminist blockade, taking the experiments and the evidence to the people who count.

You can misrepresent my court case against LSE (The Times et al did) but you will not be able to interfere with gold-diggers digging their own holes, on camera, or with stand-up independent women who choose to reject gold-digging, making us laugh with them.

All those in favour of gold-digging?

Didn’t think so.

I just…there’s nothing I can add to this to improve it.

It’s priceless, isn’t it?

Plus, so many band names.

Humourously Unrepentant Gold-Diggers

Gold-Diggishness Deniers (their rivals, presumably)

Victim-Feminist Wets (known for performing outdoors in winter on unroofed stages)

Victim Feminist Blockade (formed from rejected applicants to V-F W)

@Jain I love the assfax he pulls on the assertion that all women are submissive. He talked to three women; it are bio-fact!

Some quick google research on the subject of gender roles in BDSM reveals:

About 30 percent of the men and 32 percent of the women reported being dominant or usually dominant, about 44 percent of the men and 38 percent of the women reported being switches, and the remaining 26 percent of the men and 33 percent of the women reported being submissive or usually submissive. Taken at face value, we can say that there are different roles (dominant plus usually dominant, versatile, and usually submissive plus submissive), that men and women tend to fill these roles in roughly the same proportions to each other, and that there is a significantly greater chance that any given sadomasochist will be versatile, instead of being either a dominant or a submissive.

http://www.sexuality.org/authors/breslow/nbres.html

Caveat, though. This study was conducted through questionnaires mailed to people who advertised in BDSM magazines or who responded to questionnaires published in these magazines, so it may not be a representative sample (not all kinky people read magazines), and there’s a self-selection response bias.

Actually, what I’ve been thinking about all day long is the argument that effective birth control is just as bad as abortion, because it keeps the sperm and the egg from coming together and fertilizing, and it is just as much a murder to prevent it before conception as it is to abort it afterwards. More specifically, I’ve been thinking about how the argument logically extends to abstinence being as bad as abortion, and wondering why the people who are so opposed to murdering babies through birth control are so completely in favour of murdering babies by not having sex at all. This is, of course, assuming that keeping an egg from being fertilized really is murdering a baby.
Now that really is amazing! Though, to be fair, I’ve probably only given it half an hour’s thought over the course of the day.

If we accept, purely for the sake of discussion, the ridiculous idea that a recently fertilized egg has moral status, then it does make a certain amount of sense to be against the pill. The common pill is designed to do three things: 1. Prevent ovulation. 2. Prevent sperm from entering the womb, by changing the texture of the fluids at the womb entrance, and 3. changing the texture of the vaginal wall so no fertilized eggs can get stuck there. It’s as safe as it is because it does all three. In SOME cases 1 and 2 will fail but 3 will still protect you, and in these cases you have murdered a precious fertilized egg . (And of course, plan B is designed specifically to flush out recently fertilized eggs that hasn’t attached themselves to the wall of the womb yet, so if recently fertilized egg=person, it follows that plan B kills.)

If that’s your argument against the pill, however, you still ought to be fine with people using condoms. If you argue against condoms merely because they prevent sperm and egg from meeting, then yeah, abstinence should be just as bad.

Uh, hit post too soon.
Still, a decent statistician could attempt to correct for those (I think), and an actual study still trumps the 50 Shades argument.
And, as opium4themasses said, that’s not how BDSM works anyway. Just because someone has a pee fetish doesn’t mean it’s OK for random strangers to just start whizzing on them.

I… probably could have picked a better example for analogy there, but the point is that just because someone might happen to have a submission fetish≠they are a subhuman sexthing that doesn’t get to have opinions.

Okay, so awhile back, I said the MRAs are stuck in ‘Hollywood high school’ mindset, where every movie cliche is brought to life and considered an actual metaphor for the world at large.

I must revise this statement.

Some of them, at least, appear to be stuck in the ‘fictional grade school’ mindset, where sticking girl’s hair in inkwells and dropping frogs down their backs is somehow seen as a sign of affection, and throwing rocks is considered reciprocation.

I think the idea that real adult life is like grade school IS a movie cliche in itself. There’s this cliche where a man and a woman can’t stand each other but deep down are attracted to each other and eventually get it on, or a man or a woman going straight from arguing to making out and having sex.

I even read on the internet that the writers of Star Trek DS9 was planning for a while to make a couple out of Gul Dukat and Kira Nerys, because they thought the two had “chemistry”. For you who haven’t seen the show, Gul Dukat’s people had violently oppressed Kira Nerys’ people, put them in concentration camps, tortured and murdered them large-scale. After a peace-treaty, Kira was in a position where she was forced to be somewhat polite to Dukat, despite everything he’d done (including being responsible for deaths of family and friends of Kira’s), but quite understandably hated his guts, which came out in her making angry jabs at him whenever she could. That’s not fucking “chemistry”! Fortunately, Nana Visitor who played the character of Kira put her foot down and went “NO FUCKING WAY”. In the end then, they had Dukat being attracted to Kira and being all creepy about her while Kira just hated him, which is so much more plausible given the history of the characters.

But yeah, I think this “woman hates a man but is simultaneously attracted to him and wants to fuck him” really IS a movie cliche.

So, self-selection bias…how important that is depends the nature of the question. Eg those medical studies you see ads for, obviously you’re self-selecting, but the bias issue is less a straight bias and more that the cause of people not self-selecting may impact the response to the treatment (f’ex, if it’s a study on the effectiveness of drug A versus drug B in psychosis, the people too paranoid to respond may respond differently…but overall the results are usually valid)

Where I’m going with this is —
1) self selection does not inherently mean toss it out the window
2) something like that it seems unlucky that, say, switches are more likely to read such magazines — one’s BDSM role would have to impact both whether you read such things, and whether you reply (if there’s a notable effect here, it’s more likely tied to the gender or age of readers than their role directly…but either of those factors could be correlated with D/s…)

Stats are complex >.<

I’d toss it if it was “which presidential candidate?” Or “views on abortion” those are irrelevant to the readership and the BDSM subculture in general may lean a different way that society at large. A question pertaining to BDSM…yeah, sometimes you need to self-select (even less ideal is “snowballing” — tell someone to tell their friends, it’s exponential self-selecting basically…and also what a lot of research on hard to reach populations resorts to, eg homeless people — the ones in shelters know about shelter services, pointless to ask them how to increase outreach, so you ask them to have the people they know who don’t use such services contact you)

/stats babble

But yeah, I think this “woman hates a man but is simultaneously attracted to him and wants to fuck him” really IS a movie cliche.

Hating a man is the antithesis of sexual attraction to him, as far as I’m concerned; if I hate someone it’s because they’re racist, or sexist, or a fucking shite in some way or another, and that immediately puts them into the Utterly Unattractive category. It doesn’t matter what they look like. Tony Abbott could look like George Clooney or Johnny Depp or whoever, and he’d still be utterly repulsive. That’s the thing these MRAs never, never get: sexual attraction can be a hella lot about personality. They can’t admit it, of course, because then they’d have to admit that women who dislike them aren’t reacting that way because we’re gold-diggers, or hypergamous, or go for ‘bad boys’, or require Brad Pitt clones. It’s because the MRAs are repellent people.

palmedfire: This is why I am continually grateful to have found this blog and it’s truly magnificent commentariat! I am now going to read everything on TakaWiki and watch copious youtube vids!

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