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Incels and PUAs agree: “Feminists are just self-hating women who want to be men”

Typical feminist

You might think that incels and pickup artists would be the deadliest of enemies, hating each other and agreeing on nothing.

They certainly have their differences; the very notion of pickup artistry challenges what incels call “looks theory,” the belief that women care almost exclusively about men’s looks, and only have sex with chiseled, genetically blessed pretty boy Chads (and/or their own dogs), not guys with middling looks and aviator goggles and an assortment of routines to amuse and hopefully bamboozle the “sets” of women they approach.

But incels and PUAs agree on most things relating to women, both groups accepting without reservation most of the shibboliths of “red pill” thoery, from the belief that western “sluts” are ruined by too much sex with men other than them to the idea that women “hit the wall” sometime between their twentieth and thirtieth birthday, turning suddenly from hot babes into withered old crones. Incels and PUAs also share an inability to fully grasp the concept of consent.

And they have similar ideas about feminists, whom one incel recently defined as “self-hating women who want to be men.” In a series of posts on the Incels.is forums, one Lv99_BixNood asked his incel colleagues

Ever notice how feminists try their best to turn women into carbon copies of men? Wearing pants, getting tattoos and pixie cuts, working men’s jobs, engaging in casual sex, using foul language, being loud, arrogant and “independent”. Female “empowerment” is measured by how masculine women are, if there’s even a shred of femininity left in them it’s evident they’re still “oppressed”.

This dude is working off of some really retrograde stereotypes of who feminists are — and what defines a man. Sure, there are some feminists who are happily butch. (There are also some butch women most feminists would regard as anything but feminist.) And a whole lot of feminists who are thoroughly femme. Gender is a complicated thing.

Why? Because being masculine is hip and cool while being feminine is looked down upon, in feminist societies even more so than in traditional “patriarchies”.

This would be a terrible irony — if it were true.

All feminists ever accomplished was making it socially acceptable for women to look and behave like men. They hate being women, so aping men is the pinnacle of “female empowerment” for them.

Saying something again and again doesn’t make it correct.

All the “feminist issues” they used to rant about relate to this cause: they wanted to work men’s jobs because working is something men do.

Because clearly, never before in history or prehistory have women done anything but laze around eating bon bons and/or their historical or prehistorical equivalents.

They wanted to wear pants because wearing pants is something men do.

When I have to leave the house, maybe.

They wanted to have casual sex, because casual sex is something men do.

I’m pretty sure feminists who have casual sex do it because they like sex.

They wanted to get short hair, tattoos and swear like a sailor because all of these are things men do.

Yeah, look at these masculine creatures with their mannish short hair.

The only man I’ve ever seen who could rock a Louise Brooks without shame is Emo Phillips.

Oh, ok. He-Man too.

And of course that avatar of traditional masculinity Prince Valiant.

As for tattoos, women and men have decorated their bodies in elaborate ways for millenia; in South Asia it’s women much more than men who get henna tattoos applied for special occasions.

Remember when feminists say incels hate women it’s pure projection. No matter how much we hate women, nobody hates women more than they themselves

No, I’m pretty sure no one hates women more than you guys. Probably not even the PUAs.

But the PUAs, or at least some of them, also think that feminism is an attempt by women to become just like men. In a post on his now-defunct blog (helpfully archived on TheRedArchive), the far-right racist PUA known as Heartiste offered a remarkably similar theory of feminists as ersatz men in his typically overdone prose. Drawing on a comment from one of his fans, he declared feminists to be

Masculinized Phenotypic Morphs … masculine women who use the ideology of feminism to rearrange normal society into a twisted slutscape that serves the interests of less attractive women who fail at extracting commitment from high value men. …

Masculinized feminism-congenial women want an unnatural order instituted that grants them the shame-free sexual freedom inherent to men while simultaneously restricting any expression of the natural sexual impulses of men themselves. 

So says you.

I don’t think I would have remembered this particular post from Heartiste had not one of Lv99_BixNood ‘s colleagues posted a link to it. Future cultural historians may want to use this as proof of the direct linkages between incels and PUAs.

And also the National Review. Heartiste ended his rumination on “masculinized” feminists by quoting what he called a “rare moment of ballsiness” from the conservative magazine:

Feminism has become something very different from what it understands itself to be, and indeed from what its adversaries understand it to be. It is not a juggernaut of defiant liberationists successfully playing offense. It is instead a terribly deformed but profoundly felt protective reaction to the sexual revolution itself. In a world where fewer women can rely on men, some will themselves take on the protective coloration of exaggerated male characteristics — blustering, cursing, belligerence, defiance, and also, as needed, promiscuity.

It’s Lv99_BixNood’s theory in slightly smoother prose. (And, though Heartiste doesn’t mention it, it was written by one Mary Eberstadt, a suspected woman.)

Heartiste, not content to merely quote, decides to elaborate on what he sees as the implications of the NR piece. Or. as he puts it, “to reword the conclusion of this NR statement for endarkening clarification.”

“In a world where fewer ugly, unfeminine, financially self-sufficient women can or need to rely on provider beta males, some will themselves take on the protective coloration of exaggerated male characteristics — blustering, cursing, belligerence, defiance, and also, as needed, promiscuity that leaves them feeling gross and unloved the next morning after Jack has slipped out the back.”

He continues:

The view is coming into focus now.

Loudmouthed feminists are more often than not:

ugly,
out of shape chunksters,
unfeminine androgynes,
older, Wall-victim spinsters,
spiteful, LSMV misfits…

who simultaneously loathe and envy the natural freedom and energy of male sexual desire. Because feminists are losers in the sexual marketplace, (and because they know it), they seek to tear down the organic, biomechanically-grounded social and sexual orders and replace them with bizarre androgynous dystopias that help them feel better about themselves. 

I’ll take a “bizarre androgynous dystopia” over anything Heartiste has to offer.

Heartiste may not be fond of incels but his theory of feminism is virtually indistinguishable from that of Lv99_BixNood. Peas in a pod.

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hammerofglass
hammerofglass
3 months ago

Half of these are also interchangeable with how TERFs talk about trans men.

ginger
ginger
3 months ago

*Shudders after reading*

Here’s what I genuinely don’t understand. These misogynists seem to enjoy, endorse, or want to have lots of casual sex. Fine — nothing wrong with lots of casual sex amongst consenting adults. However, if these dudes are all straight, with whom will they have lots of casual sex? With the straight women whom they will inevitably condemn as promiscuous? Truly, I cannot comprehend this mindset.

Well, this and the whole virulent misogyny.

YlVi
YlVi
3 months ago

Do gay men hate the men who will have sex with them as much as so many straight men hate the women who will have sex with them?

I don’t think so, because, while I’m not a gay man, I get the idea that gay men who have lots of sex just genuinely enjoy sex, and good for them. Misogynistic men, like the PUA types, don’t like sex so much as that they like the status and validation they can gain through having a lot of sex with a lot of different women. This is why they’re so paradoxically against women being promiscuous. Convincing a woman to fuck you through good looks, a fancy car or shitty manipulation tactics means they’ve “conquered her” (barf). If a woman doesn’t need much “conquering”, because she enjoys casual sex just as much as the guy trying to get with her, it doesn’t confer much status in their mind. So, they’re not as interested. It’s all very stupid.

GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
3 months ago

Wearing pants!!! Time to clutch their pearls.

Morena Baccarin also looks very attractive in a pixie cut (see Firefly and the remake of V). And there’s not a ton of difference between Brooksie’s hair and the famous Beatlemania style. I am told those mop top lads got a whole lot of Stacies.

@Crip Dyke: I’m picturing their heads imploding at the very thought of you.

@QotH: “Twisted Slutscape” is the name of my next band.

Full Metal Ox
3 months ago

@Tony:

Also, speaking of that bob haircut, Disney’s version of Mowgli is another dude who rocked it.

@GSS ex-noob:

And there’s not a ton of difference between Brooksie’s hair and the famous Beatlemania style. I am told those mop top lads got a whole lot of Stacies.

This gentleman also sported a variant early in his career:

http://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2022-01/10/19/asset/f9f43948c0e3/sub-buzz-9445-1641843919-1.jpg?resize=625:932

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
3 months ago

Jolene Blalock on Enterprise. Pixie cut. Form-fitting uniform. Definitely not masculine.

Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
Kat, ambassador, feminist revolution (in exile)
3 months ago

@ginger

However, if these dudes are all straight, with whom will they have lots of casual sex? With the straight women whom they will inevitably condemn as promiscuous?

Yes, with those very women.

It’s all part of the abuser mindset. Usually, a woman doesn’t know a guy is an abuser right away because he hides it. But once he thinks she’s not going anywhere — maybe they become exclusive or maybe they move in together or maybe she becomes economically or in some other way dependent on him — then the abuse begins. Or maybe that’s when it begins in earnest. And psychological abuse is abuse.

So if an abuser is inclined toward insulting a woman, yeah, he’ll call her names for having sex with him. Or other guys. Or for not having sex with him or other guys. It’s not uncommon for this type to call a woman a whore online — because she wouldn’t sleep with him. Nah, they don’t feel a need to make sense.

Queen of the Harpies
Queen of the Harpies
3 months ago

@Alan

in t’olden days, if you wanted to speak to someone you sent a pageboy to let them know. Hence ‘to page’ meaning to invite someone to talk, and thus ‘pager’.

Probably everyone else here already knew that.

I did not. Thanks for sharing.

@Viscaria

Judging by how long pants have been a common and unremarkable item of clothing for women, I’m going to guess this particular incel fought in The Great War.

My grandmother told me a story about how one of her peers (no, wait, it may have been my aunt) was sent home from school for wearing pants when it was freezing cold and made to change back into a skirt. Pants for women have still been contentious in some places, Because Sexism.

@GSS

Okay, but you’d better follow through. I want a signed copy of your first album.

Last edited 3 months ago by Queen of the Harpies
Snowberry
Snowberry
3 months ago

Women wanting the same social options and status as men ≠ wanting to actually be men. That’s a very basic level of nuance, but even that gets lost in black-and-white thinking.

QuantumInc
QuantumInc
3 months ago

I think the problem is that these guys rely on their gender for their whole sense of identity. Masculinity determines their whole personality and reason for getting up in the morning. So when a woman does something traditionally masculine it makes it questionably masculine making it all feel really threatening to them.

Gerald Fnord
Gerald Fnord
3 months ago

If Heartiste happens to be short-sighted, I certainly hope he eschews inorganic, unnatural vision correctors; if diabetic, he really ought to look into how artificial insulin and its analogues are made….

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