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Are Roosh V’s “Bang” books how-to guides for rape?

Roosh V explains the mechanics of sex
Roosh V explains the mechanics of sex

If the almost universally despised pickup artist and rape legalization proponent Roosh Valizadeh is able to deliver his planned talk tomorrow at some as-yet-undisclosed venue in Toronto, he won’t just be talking about the unoriginal blend of warmed-over misogyny he perplexingly calls “neomasculinity.”

He will also be selling his infamous “Bang” books, a series of pickup guides aimed mostly at North American tourists hoping to score easy sex in an assortment of countries in Europe and South America. These guides seem to have been Roosh’s main source of income for the past several years.

So it is worth asking what exactly Roosh is selling here.

Most of the “Bang” books are country-specific guides offering Roosh’s, er, insights into each country’s nightlife, dating mores, and women. “The best way to describe a Ukrainian girl’s personality is that of a corpse,” he explains in Bang Ukraine. “They really don’t show any emotion, interest, or spark when you first approach them. They just stand still with their eyes darting around.”

Alongside Roosh’s recommendations on cities to visit, bars to prowl, and dating “logistics” (rent an apartment near the bars you intend to frequent so you can easily get “girls” back to your place before, you know, they change their minds), Roosh also provides case studies of his sexual, er, conquests of women in each country.

Judging from Roosh’s own descriptions of them, many of these alleged conquests might better be described as rapes.

Again and again in these stories, presented as true, Roosh literally won’t take no for an answer, pressuring reluctant and resistant women into giving him what he wants, in one case using outright physical force in order to continue intercourse with a woman who had changed her mind.

In many of these cases Roosh tells us or at least implies that the woman in question consented to sex, but it is worth asking what kind of “consent” is preceded by literally hours of struggle against a physically imposing man who refuses to believe that no means no. It’s also worth asking what the woman’s own account of the experience would look like.

Are Roosh’s Bang books essentially how-to guides to date rape? Read some of his stories and decide for yourself. [Trigger Warning for the quotes that follow.]

The most notorious passage in any of Roosh’s Bang books comes from Bang Iceland, in which Roosh describes sex with a drunk woman he ushered to his apartment after she was left behind by her friends at a bar.

While walking to my place, I realized how drunk she was. In America, having sex with her would have been rape, since she couldn’t legally give her consent. It didn’t help matters that I was relatively sober, but I can’t say I cared or even hesitated.

I won’t rationalize my actions, but having sex is what I do.

Sex with women too drunk to consent is considered rape in Iceland as well as in the US.

Roosh continues:

If a girl is willing to walk home with me, she’s going to get the dick no matter how much she has drunk. …

I figure my dick was inside her about forty minutes after meeting her, likely my fastest bang ever. The sex was as good as drunken sex can get, but I did notice her pussy was drier than the Sahara desert.

Roosh’s sense of self-awareness is as underdeveloped as his conscience.

With another Icelandic woman, Roosh reports:

In the middle of the night I got another boner, put on a condom, and jammed it back in while she was half-asleep. I came and passed out again with the condom still on my dick….

Roosh’s accounts of his sexual escapades in Iceland are sadly rather typical for him. In Bang Poland, he makes clear that the word “no,” won’t stop him, no matter how many times it’s repeated.

We moved to my bed. I got her down to her bra and panties, but she kept saying, “No, no.” I was so turned on by her beauty and petite figure that I told myself she’s not walking out my door without getting fucked. At that moment I accepted the idea of getting locked up in a Polish prison to make it happen.

After more such “foreplay,” Roosh gets what he wants:

I put on a condom, lubed up, and finally got her consent to put it in. … I put her on her stomach and went deep, pounding her pussy like a pedophile. She took it like a champ even though I imagine it must have felt like being fucked by a telescope. My orgasm was from another world.

This is what passes for a happy ending in Roosh’s stories.

In 30 Bangs, a collection of Rooshian case studies, Roosh gives his excruciating account of “sex” with an anonymous Catholic girl a similarly “upbeat” ending:

After dinner we went upstairs and I eased her onto my king-size bed. It took four hours of foreplay and at least thirty repetitions of “No, Roosh, no” until she allowed my penis to enter her vagina. No means no—until it means yes.

The sex was painful for her. I was only the second guy she’d ever had sex with. … She whimpered like a wounded puppy dog the entire time, but I really wanted to have an orgasm, so I was “almost there” for about ten minutes. After sex she sobbed for a good while, talking about how she had sinned in the eyes of God, but in an hour she got horny again and we went at it once more.

In Bang Ukraine, Roosh describes how he used “some muscle” to hold a woman down after she changed her mind during sex.

I was fucking her from behind, getting to the end in the way I normally did, when all of a sudden she said, “Wait stop, I want to go back on top.” I refused and we argued. … She tried to squirm away while I was laying down my strokes so I had to use some muscle to prevent her from escaping. I was able to finish, but my orgasm was weak.

Afterwards I told her she was selfish and that she couldn’t call an audible so late in the game.

Again and again in these stories – and there are more of them — Roosh misleads, manipulates, cajoles, pressures and intimidates women until he gets what he wants. The women could not be clearer in their refusals, telling Roosh no and pushing him away. He doesn’t care.

To judge from his own accounts of his sexual exploits in the books he published himself, Roosh is a dangerous sexual predator who has been getting away with it for years. In his Bang books, he teaches young men that they can get away with it too.

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EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

She tried to squirm away while I was laying down my strokes so I had to use some muscle to prevent her from escaping.

“Preventing someone from escaping” isn’t arguing about a sex position, it’s physically forcing someone to continue having sex with you even when they don’t want to. There’s a word for that and that’s “rape.”

I hope she’s okay, whomever she is.

EDIT: Also, “couldn’t call an audible so late in the game” sounds like an evil version of Calvinball.

Kat
Kat
6 years ago

@Kimberly Brown

I don’t see how arguing about a sex position is wrong. All of this is a gray area or moral gray area.

So . . . not wrong.

But also . . . not right. A moral gray area.

I’m convinced! Roosh is really a great guy.

OK, here’s the truth: Roosh raped that woman. Consenting to sex doesn’t mean that you consent to anything and everything your partner might want to do. And rape is not only wrong but illegal. Roosh might never go to prison. But he does get to live with the knowledge that he’s a rapist.

I hope that this woman has been able to recover from the trauma of Roosh raping her.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

Consenting to sex doesn’t mean you consent to anything and everything

People also need to remember that consent can be withdrawn at any time. Initial consent is not a licence to carry on regardless until you’ve ‘lost your nut’ (or whatever the ghastly phrase is).

One would think that was obvious but it’s scary just how many people seem to think that’s unreasonable.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/aug/24/george-galloway-todd-akin-rape-comments

dhag85
6 years ago

@Kimberly

How far gone do you have to be in order to believe it’s OK to pin someone down and rape them while physically preventing them to escape?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
6 years ago

I don’t see how arguing about a sex position is wrong. All of this is a gray area or moral gray area.

There are many things in this world that aren’t a strict black-and-white binary. Sexual orientation is one. Gender is another. Consent is not.

There’s no such thing as a “Grey area” here. It’s either enthusiastic or it’s rape. Pretending otherwise is one of the cornerstones of rape culture.

Also, you’re a dickhead.

EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

M, I hope that when I’m grown up I can be as awesome as you are.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
6 years ago

Is Kimberly really Roosh?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

Speaking of people who think consent is optional, looks like Assange is going to get away with it.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/04/julian-assange-wikileaks-arrest-friday-un-investigation

I know people make excuses for him on the grounds that this is something to do with fears of being extradited to the US, but he was quite happy living in Britain until the moment the rape allegations came to light (and it’s not like we won’t render people) so that’s bollocks.

Kimberly Brown
Kimberly Brown
6 years ago

@WeirwoodTreeHugger

nope

@dhag85

If a guy or girl is close orgasm, they probably wouldn’t want to change sex position. The rest as far I am concerned he could be a rapist. If you so intensely believe he is a rapist as everyone responding to me seems to believe, contact the people he “raped” and convince them to contact the police instead of being judge, jury, and executioner. I am not advocating for Roosh. I am only saying there is reasonable doubt based on what I have read.

It’s like none of you guys have had sex.I propose a test ask your gf and/or wife to have sex for every change of position, touching of every body part, and whatever else for the next week. See how annoyed she will get, if I am wrong then will admit defeat.

katz
6 years ago

I propose a test ask your gf and/or wife to have sex for every change of position, touching of every body part, and whatever else for the next week. See how annoyed she will get, if I am wrong then will admit defeat.

I propose a counter-test. You’re having sex and just getting really close when your SO starts screaming “OW OW OW THAT REALLY HURTS!” Do you keep going? I mean, you’re really close!

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
6 years ago

If you so intensely believe he is a rapist as everyone responding to me seems to believe, contact the people he “raped” and convince them to contact the police instead of being judge, jury, and executioner.

Even if it was up to us to force rape victims to relive the trauma – putting themselves at the mercy of a culture who’d believe an octopus before a mere woman and opening up the possibility of violent retribution from one of Roosh’s cultists – when they don’t want to, which it’s absolutely not… How? We don’t know their names, and that feminist time machine you all seem to think we use to teleport around the planet doesn’t actually exist.

I propose a test ask your gf and/or wife to have sex for every change of position, touching of every body part, and whatever else for the next week.

I like how you can’t bring yourself to pretend that (straight) women exist, even on a feminist site, even when you’re using a female name.

Also, you’re still a dickhead.

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

Kimberly Brown | February 5, 2016 at 1:44 am
@dhag85

If a guy or girl is close orgasm, they probably wouldn’t want to change sex position. The rest as far I am concerned he could be a rapist. If you so intensely believe he is a rapist as everyone responding to me seems to believe, contact the people he “raped” and convince them to contact the police instead of being judge, jury, and executioner.

Ah, you’re one of those “He’s not really a rapist until he’s convicted!” types apparently. As a rape survivor myself:

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1339426725154_9146065.png

And while you’re in the process of fucking off, read this.

I am not advocating for Roosh. I am only saying there is reasonable doubt based on what I have read.

“I’m not here advocating for Roosh, I’m just saying I don’t have any actual idea what rape is, and thus Roosh isn’t a rapist because I don’t even believe his own words can condemn him!”

It’s like none of you guys have had sex.

> Assumes we’re all dudes.
> Tries to insult us by saying “You’ve just never had sex before!”

*snerk*

I propose a test ask your gf and/or wife to have sex for every change of position, touching of every body part, and whatever else for the next week. See how annoyed she will get, if I am wrong then will admit defeat.

Putting aside that you’ve apparently only asked this question of straight dudes, allow me to provide input, as a woman myself (since you’re basing this off of how women would feel about it, which I don’t understand why you would tell men to do this silly experiment instead of just asking the women in the thread how they’d feel about it when we’re sitting right here.):

I actually like it when my partner asks me if I’m feeling okay every once in a while. “Does this feel good?” “Am I doing this right?” “Are you comfortable?” Yes, even during the really kinky BDSM kind of stuff that I really like.

And you know what? I consider it a huge fucking requirement that my partner asks things like “Hey, can we try [sex act] now?” or “Is this feeling okay? Do you want to switch or stop?” Because it shows that they fucking care about me just as much as they want to get off.

I don’t understand why everyone who is against consent education wants to blow this shit out of proportion by thinking we’re telling men to ask for permission for every sex act, when all we’re asking is for a little consideration in the bedroom. And yes, that includes backing the fuck off when we say “No” or “That hurts!” or “Stop it!”

Saying Roosh is a rapist for ignoring 50 no’s and pinning a woman down who was actively trying to get away from him during sex, or telling people that consent isn’t a free pass for every sex act in the book isn’t the same as demanding that men ask for permission for every little thing.

Also, here’s a comic that you might find relevant as well. (Linked because NSFW.)

Kimberly Brown
Kimberly Brown
6 years ago

@katz

Strawman: You are misrepresenting my argument. If that were the case then, the guy should stop. I am only stating a disagreement on change in sex position, because the women is not getting off is not wrong.

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

I don’t care what ideology you personally associate or believe. You are woefully deluded if you believe that American or western society would believe an octopus before a women. What do you consider a roosh cultist? Unless I am mistaken you can sue practically sue anyone for anything in the US. Take whatever evidence you evidently have to believe he is guilty there. In the mean time, innocent till proven guilty.

“I like how you can’t bring yourself to pretend that (straight) women exist, even on a feminist site, even when you’re using a female name.”

*facepalm*

It’s like practically everyone bringing up fictional arguments to openly be dismissive.

“Ah, you’re one of those “He’s not really a rapist until he’s convicted!” types apparently. As a rape survivor myself:”

Ah so you’re one of those let’s hang everyone a woman accuses of rape types. US legal is evidently pointless. So, let’s rip the US founding principles and documents just to please you. I am sorry if you got raped, which is the exact same thing I would say to any other person a victim of any other violent crime.

“I’m not here advocating for Roosh, I’m just saying I don’t have any actual idea what rape is, and thus Roosh isn’t a rapist because I don’t even believe his own words can condemn him!”

That is for a court decide not your emotions! If you want a mob to bring out pitchfork every time a guy says something that sounds incriminating, go live somewhere else. #MyCousinVinny ( The situation is different, but the principles are the same)

“And while you’re in the process of fucking off, read this.”

*sigh* What is expect to be done if it is not reported to anyone? The same thing could be said about illegal immigrants in the US. There are police more interested in solving crime than interested in deporting an illegal immigrant. This is not victim blaming as I can already expect the next comment to state that is what I am saying.The second survey if to be an accurate statistic advocates women should be report based on the data.

The first survey is using the NCVS for the data. There definition of rape sounds objective, but their definition of sexual assault is in some ways subjective in the same way normal assault is. “These crimes include attacks or attempted attacks
generally involving unwanted sexual contact between
a victim and offender”. For example: Maybe a m/f at a young was playing tag under water and m/f accidentally touched her breast while they were playing. In this situation, the guy has committed
sexual assault may or may not have committed sexual assault depend on the girls subjective feelings.
not involve force and includes grabbing or fondling. Also, the second source (“Is
Reporting of Rape on the Rise?) in the article didn’t have a large enough sample size n=3001, . if I remember correctly, which would take into account only 1,000,000 of the about 100,000,000 in the united states. ( I am going to stop here for tonight)

Do you want to know why people don’t try to take the time to disapprove statistics like these? Because it is take a great deal of time and most likely to be dismissed.

“> Assumes we’re all dudes.
> Tries to insult us by saying “You’ve just never had sex before!” ”

Would you try a test if I suggested one? If so, then why should I bother? I am not trying to insult you on whether or not you have had sex. It would be ludacris do take dictate how other people should have sex without having had sex before.

“Putting aside that you’ve apparently only asked this question of straight dudes, allow me to provide input, as a woman myself (since you’re basing this off of how women would feel about it, which I don’t understand why you would tell men to do this silly experiment instead of just asking the women in the thread how they’d feel about it when we’re sitting right here.):”

It’s your subjective opinion that it is silly.

Since, I know everyone who read everything everywhere on the internet.

“I actually like it when my partner asks me if I’m feeling okay every once in a while. “Does this feel good?” “Am I doing this right?” “Are you comfortable?” Yes, even during the really kinky BDSM kind of stuff that I really like. ”

Some girls do some girls don’t like talking in the bedroom. They may prefer to just use their body try to push your hands away if you are doing something wrong or may do (or say) nothing at all if she feels any pain. That is my point. Also, one of the key things you said was “once in a while”. n=1 is not representative of all women.

“And you know what? I consider it a huge fucking requirement that my partner asks things like “Hey, can we try [sex act] now?” or “Is this feeling okay? Do you want to switch or stop?” Because it shows that they fucking care about me just as much as they want to get off.”

Not all girls like be asked to have sex now being dogged to have sex, or having half a conversation (or communicating during sex). I am not sure how true or untrue the following statement is: “Hey, can we try [sex act] now?”

“I don’t understand why everyone who is against consent education wants to blow this shit out of proportion by thinking we’re telling men to ask for permission for every sex act, when all we’re asking is for a little consideration in the bedroom.

*facepalm* The second link when searching google “consent education” has a relevant critics opinion on the topic. , “Do women sometimes say no when they mean yes? The prevalence and correlates of women’s token resistance to sex.
Muehlenhard, Charlene L.; Hollabaugh, Lisa C ” (which can be read online if you can look it up with your college library online catalog), evidently moms and/or dads must not have taught there sons not to rape/hurt women, and is insulting men by being told in schools to not hurt/rape women (like rapist would stop if they obtained this education).

Consideration is one thing but scaring guys more about approaching women is not the solution. Also, the class may give a false impression of what (some or all) women actually want. Since one bad interpretation on a female part could have his life and livelihood threatened/destroyed.

And yes, that includes backing the fuck off when we say “No” or “That hurts!” or “Stop it!” ”

I agree!

Saying Roosh is a rapist for ignoring 50 no’s and pinning a woman down who was actively trying to get away from him during sex, or telling people that consent isn’t a free pass for every sex act in the book isn’t the same as demanding that men ask for permission for every little thing.

If that is what is proved in a court of law, then he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Read above article: “Do women sometimes say no when they mean yes? The prevalence and correlates of women’s token resistance to sex.
Muehlenhard, Charlene L.; Hollabaugh, Lisa C “

EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

I’m trying to popularise the term “Gertrude” for this type of asshole: one who starts off by saying “I’m not advocating for Roosh” and then spends thousands of words doing precisely that. Advocating is a verb of action: if we see you busily advocating for someone then it avails you nothing to claim “Aha, but I said I wasn’t advocating for him!” We’re capable of reading and we know what “advocating” means, you know.

When you’re Gertruding, it means that you want to advance a line of thought whilst appearing to distance yourself from it. This is pretty close to the definition of argument in bad faith.

(The term is a reference to a line in Shakespeare: “Methinks the lady doth protest too much her innocence.”)

Realistically, someone spending that many keystrokes defending a position has some tie to it. You might admire Valizadeh and believe him incapable of wrongdoing; you might believe that rape only happens to bad people; you might even simply dislike the people here and be invested in demonstrating mastery over them. Whatever it is, there’s something leading you to do it rather than playing video games or watching cats on youtube. What do you think that is?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
6 years ago
Kimberly Brown
Kimberly Brown
6 years ago

@EJ

If adovcating for a fair trial of both, men an women is advocating then I am guilty.

“Realistically, someone spending that many keystrokes defending a position has some tie to it. You might admire Valizadeh and believe him incapable of wrongdoing; you might believe that rape only happens to bad people; you might even simply dislike the people here and be invested in demonstrating mastery over them. Whatever it is, there’s something leading you to do it rather than playing video games or watching cats on youtube. What do you think that is?”

Yes, I have a tie to it. No more so than the girl I responded to. No, based on my previous statements I have said if taken to be true then don’t see how you gathered that. I have a disagreement with people here. Yeah sure you have seen through my master plan. The same could be said for you. If you want to be in a hugbox there is the door.

@ troll

I assume you are referring to me. Can you send me a poster?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

If you want to be in a hugbox there is the door.

I think you misunderstand where you are. Perhaps you’d like to go back to 4chan?

(For the unaware: “Hugbox” is a term for places on the internet where antisocial behaviour is considered high-status and being a nice person is frowned upon. The term originates from a slur against autistic people, and especially against the awesome Temple Grandin.)

Kimberly Brown
Kimberly Brown
6 years ago

@EJ

Thank you for correcting my doublespeak big brother. Let’s all use your newspeak.
#1984

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
6 years ago

there is reasonable doubt based on what I have read

How is there reasonable doubt when the perpetrator himself has said that he pinned someone down and raped them while physically preventing them from escaping? Answer that question, please.

It’s like none of you guys have had sex.

Listen, you fucking idiot. I’m married, and if during sex my wife were to tell me “stop” and try to escape from underneath me, you better fucking believe I wouldn’t physically force her to stay and continue what I’m doing. Did you just admit to being a rapist as well?

Kevin
6 years ago

Roosh has plenty more advices that he gives to thousands of men, on how to actually just rape women and suffer no legal consequences

http://i.imgur.com/wktH2Yt.jpg

Raven
Raven
2 years ago

That thing is revolting, I feel besmirched by reading this. Roosh is not a human being and it would be really offensive to animals (even sea elephants) to call him one. Reading this makes me want to vomit and take a lenghty shower afterwards.

Warning: Don`t read the following unless you can take reading as vile, brutal and sadistic fantasies as that thing would deserve it. Seriously: nothing for the faint-hearted!
You have been warned, continue reading at own risk.
(Though after reading what that thing wrote chances are you’ll applaud it.)

So in one point Roosh is right: I do have a rape fantasy regarding that thing, only it doesn’t play out like it would imagine.
Basically it involves a soundproof cellar, a cable (can be turned into a makeshift torture device; after all “no means no until it means yes”, right? what’s better to get a quick yes without too much effort and time loss than good old electrocution?) and hence a “consensual” (in the Roosh sense) intimate encounter between a hot soldering bolt and Roosh’s rectum.
Though I’m sure at this point he’d change his definition of consensual astonishingly fast. Bet this would correct his misconceptions about women and the meaning of the word “no” within minutes.
I especially revel in the beauty and elegance of the almost poetic justice in it.

Ok, now seriousy: sometimes I’d really, really like to do that to him or any other rapist (those personally known to me specifically), but that thing and the likes of it aren’t worth my freedom and neither yours, so I also don’t want to instigate others to commit such a heinous crime.
Not even when that thing would be the deserving “victim”.
(Although I’d have to lie if I claimed I wouldn’t probably laugh my ass off if somebody actually did that to Roosh.)
No, I’m just sharing the feelings, images and thoughts such texts evoke in me. Might help numerous women (especially rape survivors) whom reading Rooshs BS made half sick half livid feel better about the things that certainly crossed their minds.
Yes, it’s pretty normal to have such fantasies about scum like that, especially if you had encounters with such people in your personal life.
No reason to feel bad about it. Because the difference is we might seek relief in imagining it but we don’t actually do such things to people.

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