all about the menz alpha males beta males boner rage empathy deficit entitlement evil sexy ladies evil women heartiste imaginary oppression incel internecine warfare irony alert men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny narcissism nice guys playing the victim PUA PUAhate red pill rhymes with roosh self-congratulation

Pickup artists argue that "Game" is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong.

From Elliot Rodger's Google+ Profile
From Elliot Rodger’s Google+ Profile

Pickup artists, classy fellows that they are, are using Elliot Rodger’s killing rampage as a marketing ploy. In the comments to one of Rodger’s videos on YouTube, a company called Strategic Dating Coach offered their solution to prevent similar shootings in the future: send disturbed young men who can’t get dates to one of their coaching sessions!

THIS is why we do what we do. TO PREVENT THIS SHIT!!! Could couldn't experience it because he didn't learn to attract women. He should have gone to our website and got our personal dating coaching or purchased one of our products. IF ANYONE NEEDS HELP, CONTACT US! Don’t do anything stupid.

While this response to Rodger’s mass killing is uniquely crass, the argument that “Game saves lives” is hardly new. To PUAs like Heartiste and Roosh Valizadeh it’s practically an article of faith.

In the wake of George Sodini’s murderous shooting spree in a Pennsylvania gym in 2009, Heartiste (then known as Roissy) wrote

If Sodini had learned game he would have been able to find another woman and gotten laid after his ex dumped him. He wouldn’t have spent the next 20 years steeped in bile and weighed down by his Sisyphian blue balls, dreaming of vengeance. Game could have saved the lives of the women Sodini killed.

The fact that Sodini had in fact imbibed in the alleged wisdom of pickup artistry, going so far as attending a pricey seminar from old-school pickup guru R. Don Steele, a self-proclaimed expert on dating young women, didn’t lead any in the pickup community to reconsider this position.

Nor has it this time. It is clear that Elliot Rodger was steeped in “red pill” thinking about women. And while he wasn’t himself a PUA, he was certainly aware of the basics of “Game.” Indeed, he subscribed to a number of PUA channels on YouTube and was a regular commenter on PUAhate, a sleazy forum devoted to criticizing “game,” not because it is manipulative and misogynistic but because it doesn’t work.

On the Roosh V forum earlier today, Roosh acknowledged that Rodger knew at least a little about “red pill” ideology – noting that Rodger referred to himself as an”alpha” – but still went ahead and argued that Game was the solution to massacres like this:

He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives.

In a followup comment, Roosh expressed his concerns for the real victims of this tragedy – Pickup artists:

I’m trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we’re the solution to this sort of murder rampage. This is the society that progressives wanted, where women are fully able to choose the top 10% of alpha males while shaming masculinity, leaving beta males with modest resources in the dust. Of course they will simply push a ban on guns, but this wholly neglects the cause. Seven people died because this guy couldn’t get laid … .

Other commenters were quick to agree. According to someone known as Moma,

Roosh has a very valid point. This will continue to replay over and over again. As human beings, our wiring is very basic yet primal. …

When have you last heard of a porn star shooting up a place? How many have emptied their balls in a hot lizard and then felt the urge to go and smoke 50 strangers?

According to Samseau, the problem wasn’t that Rodger hadn’t heard the Game Gospel; the problem was that he had rejected his salvation:

He knew about Game. If he had an account on PUAHATE then he knew about game. He was just a denialist. There was no helping this dude.

Roosh seconded this bit of wisdom, seeing it as clear evidence that “game denialism kills.”

Michelin, for his part, hoped that PUAs would be able to use the massacre as a publicity bonanza and a great “told you so” to all the haters.

One should write a mainstream article about this case. The argument that game could have saved lives can be an eye-opener and a smash in the face to haters of game.

Tuthmosis, the man best known for a Return of Kings post on the “5 Reasons to Date a Girl With An Eating Disorder,” reported his joy that PUAhate was getting bad press:

Seeing your enemies fall is a delicious treat you only get to taste a few times in your life. I’m savoring this delicacy with a cup of freshly brewed coffee. It’s a shame real people had to lose their lives, but I can’t help but think this will discredit a horrible website, PUAHate–and a way of thinking–that could have harmed even more men and innocent people. Beta losers will never go away, but this will wake up a few men and, more importantly, scare others.

Zelcorpion blamed “girls” and MGTOWers for giving Rodgers bad dating advice:

I bet a few girls told him that he only needs to be himself, be nice, be a gentleman, have a nice car, looks etc. – only to realize that it mattered shit. Instead of learning from the PUA-community he chose to listen to PUAhaters and some of the anti-female comments of the MGTOWs who themselves are often refusing to accept Game or even basic concepts like Alpha/Beta. I think that problem will become way worse, since hypergamy and promiscuity will only increase and most men will be left in the sexual wasteland.

But it took a relative newcomer to the forum by the handle of thedavidgt to raise the obvious logical objection to the Game-for-everybody solution to incel rage:

If every sexless beta in the world took it upon himself to learn game, approach girls, lift, dress well etc, would it not simply feed women’s egos and entitlement? So instead of occasionally getting awkwardly hit on by skinny fat, poor-dressed chumps, the average 7 would then be approached several times a day by extremely high value men. We’ll have a society of men working to improve themselves for women who will get lazier and lazier while at the same time demanding more and more.

In fact, the “Game saves lives” mantra is dead wrong, but not for this reason. First of all, there is no clear evidence that “game,” per se, works, except insofar as it encourages men to pursue large numbers of women and numb them to the pain of rejection. It’s possible that a few of the conversational ploys invented by various PUAs may work better than having no conversational ploys at all. But there are no magic cheat codes to “getting with women.”

There is one more disturbing way in which “game” may increase “success” with women for unscrupulous men: many of the standard techniques of “game”– invading a woman’s personal space, touching her repeatedly, trying to “isolate” her from her friends – may serve as “tests” to find women who are less likely to resist violations of their boundaries. In this way, “game” may serve as a quite effective enabler of date rape. Indeed Roosh himself has admitted to raping a date too drunk to consent.

So how much of a solution is training a guy who is already filled with a toxic mixture of entitlement and self-loathing (yes, these strange bedfellows do often go together) in some techniques that might help him to tamp down his insecurities enough to manipulate some willing or not-so-willing women into bed?

You might have simply turned a mass killer into a serial rapist, or possibly a serial killer. Ted Bundy was quite the charmer. Somehow this didn’t make him a decent human being.

Even if “game” were the beneficient form of “self-improvement” that some of its proponents like to claim it is, teaching Rodger how to be a better dater would not make him a better person. Would having a girlfriend solve all his problems? Hardly. Relationships require patience and compromise and mutual respect, and Rodger seems to have had none of these qualities. Instead of directing his narcissistic rage at “girls” at large, he would likely have ended up abusing a string of girlfriends.

The problem wasn’t Rodger’s lack of “Game.” It was his lack of humanity.

1,746 replies on “Pickup artists argue that "Game" is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong.”

@Marie just saw your sculpture – perfect 🙂 I love that the attack chickens have red eyes.

If we’re now dumping random things here this is basically the funniest thing I’ve read in ages and you should all read it right now if you need a bit of a pickup after days of reading random guys defend a murderer because omg sad penis is the worst thing ever. Man feels discontented with his girlfriend because she’s a “big girl”, signs up for Fetlife, bullies her into agreeing to an open relationship, and then…

I know it’s long but read it all, it just keeps getting better and better.

Curvy Kate is on the low quality end of bras in large cup sizes. In HH-K they’re really not very supportive and the fibers they’re made out of give out fast. They make sexy-looking stuff that’s, really, for the floor. It can be fun to wear for a few hours with the intention of undressing and tossing on the floor but, at least in HH thru K cup, they are not super comfortable nor super supportive. They do not last and some of them make the wearer’s boobs a wonky shape.

Best brands for functional and attractive bras in HH-K cup are Panache (and Cleo by Panache, up to J) and Elomi. Panache is by far my favourite. They’re more expensive than Curvy Kate but you get more wear out of them.

I wear each bra twice, then wash in mesh bags, two per bag, on the delicate cycle with Forever New detergent. I try to wear each of my bras before washing to ensure they get equal wear and all last. Some last two years. Six months is normal so I’m doing very well.

I don’t have money but I do spend on shoes and bras because, when you have big breasts, they’re SO important for musculoskeletal reasons.

cassandra: I read that last week, and guy’s brilliant plan backfired gloriously.

The best part is where the response was “it’s your own fault, dude, so stop whining” and he was all “you are being very unfair to me!”. Perhaps he, too, will one day come here to tell us his tale of woe.

(And when some of us immediately recognize him for the entitled sexist asshole that he is, we’ll be told we’re being too mean and should cut him more slack because he might be sincere.)

When I read about this guy on Jezebel, some aggrieved dudebro tried to say that was a woman who wrote the tale, because a guy wouldn’t do that because manly reasons.

Wouldn’t want to look like a “click” or mean girl bullies.

Now available on Amazon We Hunted the Mammoth:

The New Clicker Training: Pavlovian reactions in trolls.

Denial is the cure for what ails you, if what ails you is reality not going your way.

I really love the thought that duder’s girlfriend was finding blokes who actually liked and were attracted to her without any of that too-big-where’s-my-hot-babe-ration shit. Plus the bloke who rubbed it in. Sweet, just sweet.

I wonder if she’d told the other guy how sneered at she felt by the boyfriend and that was why he decided to twist the knife a bit. I know men who’d do that.

::nods:: I can imagine Mr K doing that.

I hope she drops bf’s sorry ass for good. Hopefully her confidence has taken a real boost from finding that hey, she’s the one people are liking and wanting to date and have sex with, not him, despite all his “you’re not fulfilling sexually [‘cos you’re fat, though I’m not going to say so aloud]” shit.

Both Marie’s statue and the redditlog thing are amazing. Serves the BF right…

I have major back issues due partially to the boulders I’m holding up. I’ve got some exercises I need to do that do help though.


What exercises do you do? My mom wears a B-cup even after three kids, and my sister has to stuff to fill an A-cup, but I got my dad’s boobs (or, rather, my grandma’s and paternal aunts’), so I have no idea what to do about them, other than commiserate with my sister that we can’t average them out.

I might order that Royce bra, though the Enell one that Unimaginative linked is also a contender; I like that they’ll customize it for you! How handy. And actually they seem to have stores that carry it in my city, so I won’t even have to do a border run for a US postbox! That probably actually seals the deal for Enell 😀

Ha! International shipping is a pain!

@dustedeste and @cloudiah
they are exercises to strengthen the shoulder muscles that are around your spine. They do help, if you do them regularly (my problem…) My physical therapist ‘prescribed’ them. There’s a bunch of different ones, but the best I’ve notice are laying on a foam roller so your spine is parallel to the roller, than doing ‘angel wings’ slowly, then alternating arms in front of you (like you were rolling your shoulder, but move the whole arm), the upside down ‘flies.’ After you’ve done this every day for awhile, you start adding weights (and other exercises) to continue strengthening. I’ll see if I can find some diagrams or something.

On this page, the ‘birddog’ and the ‘supermans’ exercises were suggested by my physical therapist in addition to the foam roller ones.

This video has the two I described. It doesn’t have the ‘snow angel wings’ but the circles are pretty close:

I haven’t done any exercises for about two weeks now and I’ve been getting back pain at the end of the day again. 🙁 Before I went to the physical therapist, it would be all day, every day, so bad that I needed prescription strength muscle relaxers. I just need to remember to do it, even when I’m tired and make time even when I’m busy. It is literally less than 5 minutes a day. And talking to you guys has motivated me! I’m going to do it now!

To keep my spine aligned I have to strength train. My lats have to stay strong to support my boobs. I do cable lat pulldowns and seated cable rows. You can do the exact same exercises with resistance bands though so no expensive equipment or gym membership needed.

I use the foam roller for stretching and working out tension. Love hearing my back crunch and pop when I’m on it.

I’ll have to give those a try! I’m really out of shape, on top of the shoulder boulder issue, and I’ve been meaning to start trying to institute and maintain some kind of exercise regimen for myself. And I did just move into a new apartment complex with a little gym in it, so now’s the time for it 😀

Besides just general improved fitness, I want to work on my upper body strength (for swords! and armor! also a shield, shields are good), so probably pushups is where it’s at. Though if anyone knows any tips for women looking to up their upper body strength, especially starting from a very low fitness level, that’d be great, though please nothing weight-loss-related (I find it triggering).

@marinerachel my phys therapist showed me how to do those exercises with the resistance band. She did say that they were ones I should do a couple of times a week, whereas the foam roller ones I should do every day.

Definitely strength training!

@dustedeste, I’m in the process of moving to a new apartment complex with a little gym, and fitness-wise, I’m in the same boat as you. I’m trying to improve my cardio-vascular, so I’ll be doing the elliptical, but I definitely want to get stronger as well. In addition to being strong enough live with boobs for an entire day… I need more overall strength, but especially upper body.

I’ll be checking back here in case anyone provides some tips!


I’d been swimming for cardio, but I’ve let it get away from me the past few months, and I might try hitting the elliptical instead, if we’ve got one (I don’t remember; I know the gyms in some of the buildings we looked at had them, but I’m not sure if this one did. If it doesn’t, it probably has an erg, and I might try that instead; my sister can give me tips I guess).

The best thing to come out of this thread, for me, was Leonora Carrington. Thank you Katz! Hadn’t heard of her before.

It was my pleasure! I will proselytize about Leonora Carrington at the slightest opportunity. She was a cool lady.

What surprised me about that Leonora Carrington self portrait – the Inn of the Dawn Horse – was learning it wasn’t recent. I’d never heard of her, and assumed it was from maybe the 80s or afterward. Just shows how deceptive big hair and tight trousers can be! 😛

Finally caught up. Wow. Just wow.

Everything I thought about responding re: Erin “I’m totally a woman! Really, I am! Now watch me dismiss every other woman’s experience as irrational and call them whores for calling me out on my bullshit” the Troll’s* dumbassery has been addressed, so I’ll just say that the rest of you guys (no, not rancid either) were simply awesome. “You’re mean because you’re calling me out even though I’m really, really, reallyreallyreally a woman and feminists are required, by a definition I just pulled out of my ass, to agree with all women everywhere!” Priceless.

I love how cassandrakitty manages to make trolls flip their shit in a matter of a few posts. I also nominate Marie for all the Internets for her awesome statue and her consistently hilarious responses.

*Note to self: work on your nicknames for trolls.

I’m in great health and lucky enough to carry the weight well but I am significantly overweight. Because I know it will likely affect my health in the future though (and, honestly, because I want people to leave me the fuck alone with their feigned concern for my well-being when, in fact, they just don’t like looking at a fat girl) and that it’s MUCH harder to get fit later in life, I’m doing it at twenty-five. I’m developing fitness habits now. The challenge is 80% diet but I get a sense of satisfaction from strength training that doesn’t come from not eating. At least I’m actually doing something I know is helping when I’m lifting. I also like to pester my friends with “Do you lift, Bro?” That and I’m a BIG eater. I LOVE food. I don’t eat emotionally. I eat recreationally. I enjoy the hell out of it. The more muscle I have, the more I have to fuel, which means MORE CALORIES! I just put away food on the days I lift. It’s amazing. Anyways, it’s a simple 45 minute routine 3x/week combined with a diet that averages 1,250 calories/day. If you’re in the high range of overweight or the low range of obese according to BMI that’s a 2+lb weight loss/week.

3 SETS OF 15
bicep curls
tricep curls
shoulder presses
let pulldowns
seated cable rows

3 SETS OF 12
bench press
back squats (2x/week only)

I literally just press the bar, no added weight. I don’t even use the bar for squats. That thing’s 44lb and, when you’re just starting, squatting with no added weight leaves you in pain for five days. Gyms usually have a set of fixed weight barbells starting at 20lb though. You start with no added weight and, when you’re recovering from that within two or three days, move up to the 20lb fixed weight barbell.

There’s no shame in starting with 5lb dumbells for your arms either or setting the cable machines to 30lb. You don’t need to add weight until what you’re working with isn’t giving you any resistance.

Make sure you’re doing the exercises correctly and you’ve got killer form and you’re golden with that routine.

I hike or cycle once a week for cardio benefit. To be honest though, I don’t do nearly enough cardio, which is shameful. I live in BC. Why am I not outside every day?

Thanks to all of you who left nice comments about the statue 😀 I”m glad it got so much love.

(and I’m just skimming the fitness conversation cuz I still I have weird problems with body stuff.)


I’m trying to improve my cardio-vascular, so I’ll be doing the elliptical,

random thought dump if no one minds: Ellipticals are pretty good if high impact exercise hurts your joints. Pre disability, I still couldn’t run b/c i injured my knee and it couldn’t take the stress of running, but it was fine on the elliptical.

I’m back at walking. For a while I was walking 5 miles a day. Now I’m back at only walking that much in a given week.
I’ve got alot of catching up to do if I want to keep up with the kids all summer.

Just a little time each day with resistance bands or light weights are great for building strength.

Yoga and hulu hoop were my to favorite workouts for a while. Now, I’d just rather walk with kids or critters.

Well, I’d rather read all day, pausing only for coffee, but with the long winter over and school almost out, that’s not an option. I’m going to be active whether I like it or not.
Time to go back outside get used to smelling like sunblock and sweat. ;P

With my very bad not good shoulder a regular push up is, as my PT put it, contra-indicated. But I can do wall push ups. You can vary the intensity by how far from the wall you stand. I miss lifting though. These days my exercise program is ‘own an 82 pound dog who needs regular long walks and try to remember the exercises the PT gave me.’

I have a local (and excellent) bra shop that carries a real variety of sizes. I have friends who swear by Her Room. The online shopping is fairly easy. They have a Universal Cup Size calculator and they tag their larger bras by that as well as by manufacturer sizing. Because not only are women’s bodies not standardized, neither are bra cup sizes above a D so every company has their own unique slant on it. That means a 36G from 3 different companies will be different sizes.

This was the first site I opened after hearing about the shootings. I trusted the discussion here and the good intentions of the regulars. So, thank you David and thank you Mammothteers.

::cautiously pokes head into thread::

Is Erin gone? Like really for real gone? Oh, thank goodness!

Marie: You’re statue is awesome and you just kinda made my day! So did cassandrakitty with that redditlog! That’s the best thing I’ve read online since this awful shooting! Thank you!

And rancid left some turds, too. Dammit, racnad, you did indeed say that women were not justified in their fear of rejecting men, even though women are hurt/killed when rejecting men, because the stories that were linked didn’t say how the women rejected the men. We can go back and read your words, you know.

(TW: violence, murder, sexual assault)

So, here’s a Tumblr called “When Women Refuse” that collects incidents of women being hurt/killed when they reject men. Maybe all these stories will convince rancid that, yes, women’s fear is justified. I doubt it, but, well, this is what women live with.

Wow, I finally got caught up reading this thread and I am so glad that Erin came by. No, seriously. Because that was such a catalog of whatthefuckery that I really think David should do a separate post on it. So many times people come here and to places like this and say (essentially) “But what did I do?!? What did I do that was so wrong? I like women!! I’m an ally, why are you being so mean to me?!?” And Erin did Every. Single. Possible. Thing. He came in identifying as female not because that was the gender he felt best fit him but because he would not be called on his sh*t. He came in mansplaining why he totally, out of the bestest and deepest depths of his dear, woman-loving heart thought we should stop being such fraidy cats and worrying our silly little heads, because there really wasn’t any danger out there. He came in and, as soon as there was the least bit of pushback, started flinging gendered slurs. He came in professing to know about the lives of sex workers and then started flinging cliches from bad movies and TV. And on, and on, and on…

It might be great to have something to point to and say, “This. This is what you should not do. And here is why.”

Not that they will listen, though…

@ gillyrosebee

It really was quite something, and obvious from very early in the conversation, and yet some of us still got asked to back off and be nicer to him because he probably wasn’t a troll. I’m still boggling at that, tbh.

I love the statue too. I was going to say the face on the rider might be a bit too cute (flattering) but since we don’t know what Erin looks like, whatevs. Monumental statuary is always done in an exaggerated and flattering style, I guess.

Sure is nice now without him, though. Erin was worse than that troll who went on in another thread about how xe reads this blog all the time whilst stepping on toes in the comments and then finally revealed that xe only read the OPs. >.<


I was going to say the face on the rider might be a bit too cute (flattering) but since we don’t know what Erin looks like, whatevs

Heh. If he’s too cute it’s cuz I just put generic white* guy face on him that I draw, I didn’t bother thinking of more distinct features. XD

*I tend to assume lots of our trolls are white cuz most mras are white guys appropriating violence against men of color and acting like it applies to all men. I have no idea Erin’s race, and he wouldn’t even tell me what he looked like so I could make my statue accurate! 😛

It really was quite something, and obvious from very early in the conversation, and yet some of us still got asked to back off and be nicer to him because he probably wasn’t a troll. I’m still boggling at that, tbh.

It was kind of a bullshit way to treat regulars with pretty good troll-dar, and women in general when they tell you someone’s not right.

It really was quite something, and obvious from very early in the conversation, and yet some of us still got asked to back off and be nicer to him because he probably wasn’t a troll. I’m still boggling at that, tbh.

Yeah, that pissed me off a bit too, and it’s reinforced after the suspiciously-like-Erin troll we’ve just had.

I live in a different time zone to Erin, which is fortunate for me because you guys handed him his ass on a platter whilst I was asleep. One of the creepiest aspects was that he name checked me, a woman who had stated that her daughter looks like the very pretty blonde young women Rodgers wanted to kill, and tried to persuade me that I should encourage her to make herself available.

So, thank you! I find Maya Angelou’s ‘And still I rise’ a tremendous source of comfort and an antidote to the Erins of this world; I mourn her passing but her words don’t die. And although Youtube has an awful lot of loathsome stuff it also has her:

Mr C was just talking about having to read I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings and how mind-expanding it was for him as a just arrived in the US high school kid yesterday. Angelou is already being missed.

When I was looking for the Spearhead post about David’s grandfather’s book, I spotted their Maya Angelou headline: it’s sad that she died because she was a woman who loved men.

Wow. The Spearhead just strives to be a bottomless pit of awful, doesn’t it?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.