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NEWS FLASH: Women aren’t the mysterious creatures that Nice Guys ™ — and predators — like to pretend that they are

Consent: Not actually that hard to recognize.
Consent: Not actually that hard to recognize.

Blog posts by the New Misogynists I write about here often seem to be little more than combinations and recombinations of a relatively small number of very bad ideas. Today, let’s look at a blog post from a “conservative libertarian” and creepy Nice Guy ™ who identifies himself only as TIC, which combines a bit of “consent is hard” and “women only like bad boys” with some muddled notions from Evo Psych to conclude that women are such mysterious creatures that no one could possibly know what they really want — and so therefore it’s women who are the ones who are really responsible when they get raped.

It’s an argument that bears a strong similarity to the stories rapists tell themselves to excuse their actions. When people describe so-called Nice Guys ™ as creepy, this is why: in a lot of ways, they think like predators. In the case of TIC here, exactly like predators.

TIC starts off by ridiculing the notion that “no means no.”

Women are notorious for always warning men that “no means no”. For us men who have dealt with enough women, we know this to be pure malarkey. If “no” always meant “no”, many men would die virgins. There would also be fewer rapes as a result, because for once women would mean what they said instead of talking in indirect code language.

And now the victim blaming begins in earnest:

Women, many times, bring rape upon themselves. They purposely reject men, even ones they are interested in, in order to get him to chase her. Since women love to be the prize and the center of attention, leading a man on a wild goose chase through all sorts of hoops and mind games is all too common in today’s society.

Now, if this were actually true it would be, well, sort of annoying for straight men who don’t like jumping through hoops. TIC, though, seems to have convinced himself that the fact that some women play coy in the dating world somehow makes it literally impossible for men to tell when and if they’re raping a woman.

What this does is blur the line between what is acceptable for a man to do to a woman and what is not…because once we can all agree that women want to be chased, we can understand what a predicament it puts men into. Since “no” does not always mean “no”, there is no real way for a man to know when to stop his advances upon a woman.

TIC now pulls out some half-baked Evo Psych to bolster his alleged argument:

My theory as to why women give such pieces of advice goes back to dark triad genes or the lack thereof. You see, when a woman tells a man that he should just be himself, or to respect women, or to give them compliments, or that “no means no”, what she is actually doing is bullshitting the male. This is a weeding out mechanism that women use in order to ensure that men who don’t get it never will.

He follows this up with a fairly standard Nice Guy ™ whine.

You see, women do not want nice guys to propagate their genes. They do not wish for them to be successful with women. This is why advice coming from women is never good; it has been sabotaged from the get-go.

Well, actually, If women are telling Nice Guys ™ that “no means no” because they don’t want to have sex with these Nice Guys ™  aren’t these women, however mean you think they are, communicating what they want pretty clearly?

TIC moves on to another standard Nice Guy ™ complaint: that women actually get to turn down men for sex. Never mind that men also have the right to refuse sex with anyone they want. To the dedicated Nice Guy ™, the fact that women can say “no” means that they’re the ones running the show. And doing a terrible job of it, to boot.

Women have the power and control in the dating scene. This is important to note because it means that any and every problem with society in the context of female-male relations falls on the shoulders of women themselves.

And we’re back in Evo Psych-land again:

If women decide to start dating men who are genuine, nice, and honest, then that is what most men will become. Since women, however, are only attracted to males with dark triad genes, that is what most men strive to be. The ones that do not either are alone or being used.

Therefore, women are responsible for getting raped:

[S]ince women have decided to make men chase and act in an overly-aggressive fashion in order to get sex, the rape culture pervades society. Make no mistake about it, women invariably cause most rapes.

Oh, but ladies, TIC isn’t necessarily blaming you personally for being raped. You may be a perfectly virtuous woman. It’s all those other ladies who created the rape culture that got you raped.

Now, this is not to say that specific individuals who are victims of raped caused it or even desired it. The point is that women overall have created an environment in which only sexually aggressive, narcissistic, abrasive men are seen as sexually attractive (these traits are what women interpret as being “confident”).

They have created an environment in which “no” doesn’t mean “no”, it actually means “try harder, keep going, I want to be chased, I want to feel wanted even though you’ve already made it clear that you want me. I want to play games and toy with you until I’m satisfied.”

Huh. I thought women were only interested in aloof dudes who insult them and refuse to buy them drinks, not with supplicating so-called betas falling over themselves to chase women. At least that’s what all the Pickup Artists keep telling me.

But no. In TIC’s world, women are mysterious creatures who delight in mystifying men, and men have no choice but to try, and try, and try again.

Men are constantly placed in awkward, unsure situations because what women want is always esoteric.

If women are so “esoteric” how is it that so many of them manage to end up in relationships with people they love? Surely at some point they must have managed to convey to their partners what they wanted.

Should he approach? If she rejects him, should he continue his advances because that’s what she may want deep down? Who knows?

Who knows? You should know, dude, and if you don’t, you should find out. Seriously, if you honestly can’t tell if a woman wants to make out with you, or have sex with you, or even just watch an episode of Mad Men with you, STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING and USE WORDS to ASK HER what she wants.

If you ask if she wants to have sex and she says no, assume she means no, and don’t have sex with her. And don’t assume she said “no” because she thinks you’re a spineless beta for asking. Seriously. If a woman really wants to have sex with you, chances are infinitesimally slim that she’s going to change her mind and throw you out simply because you actually asked her if she wants to have sex. (And if she is that sort of person, count your blessings that you’re not dating her, and move on.)

If the woman you’re pursuing is such a flighty game player that for some perverse manipulative reason she won’t say “yes” when she means “yes,” DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER. Assume that anything short of a clear “yes” is a “no.” And maybe think about dating someone who can communicate what she wants more clearly.

If you assume that ambiguity means no, the worst that can happen is that miss out on having sex with someone who’s up for having sex with you, but who for some reason can’t or won’t tell you what she really wants. A missed chance to have sex is not the end of the world. If, by contrast, you assume that ambiguity means yes, the worst that can happen is that you rape someone. Err on the side of caution. Don’t err on the side of rape.

Unfortunately, like most of those who pretend that consent is somehow more complicated than quantum physics, TIC doesn’t actually seem much interested in figuring out the alleged mysteries of consent. He seems more interested in providing an excuse for men who want to pretend that consent is so hard, and women such mysterious creatures, that they just can’t help raping women.

For many men, leaving things to chance is not an option. They will continue to press the issue in order to find out the woman’s true intentions.

“Press the issue.” That may be the creepiest euphemism for rape I’ve run across yet.

Thus is the nature of women: enablers of the very thing they claim to despise the most.

No, it’s the nature of sexual predators to pretend that a clear verbal “no” from the target of their sexual advances means “keep pushing,” and, indeed, that any response short of a punch in the nose is evidence that their victim “really wants it.”

Rapists like to pretend that they somehow “misunderstood” the signals their victims gave them. But there’s good research showing that this just isn’t true – and that the predators know it. As Thomas Macaulay Millar has pointed out in a much-cited post on the Yes Means Yes blog, predators can read the signals from their victims just fine. It’s just that they don’t like what their victims are trying to tell them – that is, no. “[T]he notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong,” Millar writes. “Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.”

And this is where predators and Nice Guys ™ find common cause. Predators don’t really care what their victims want, and will keep going regardless of whether or not they get a clear message to stop; pretending that women are mysterious creatures unable to convey what they want gives them a perfect excuse for their predatory behavior.

Nice Guys, by contrast, may not actually be confident enough to believe that the women they fixate on will ever say yes to them. And so they’re drawn to the same specious arguments about the alleged “esoteric” nature of women that predators spout — because these half-believed arguments enable them to pretend that ambigious signals — or even flat-out no’s — are yeses in disguise.

TIC’s argument doesn’t explain rape culture. His argument is rape culture.

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Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@jenab6

Extending an invitation to sex

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I wonder if those invitations take the form of catcalling random strangers. If so, then it’s perhaps unsurprising they are rejected with hostility.

Without getting into TMI territory, in my experience, sexual encounters don’t originate in a vacuum. People will have established some sort of relationship and communication before that crops up; people don’t just spring the issue out of nowhere. By the time you’re ready for sex to be an issue you already know the answer as it were.

Myriad
Myriad
6 years ago

@jenab6

So which is it? Do you women treat your invitation to sex with hostility, outrage, or give the man trouble (whatever that means)? Or do women give you a soft no that is all wishy-washy and lead you on? You said we all do it and not to lie that we do it.

Thanks for telling us how we interact with people and what we think. That is so awesome of you. /sarcasm.

Myriad
Myriad
6 years ago

Oops. Second sentence should read: Do women treat not Do you women treat.

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
6 years ago

A women who declines an invitation to sex often does so with hostility, outrage, and tries to cause a man trouble on account of it. To get one yes, a man might have to weather rejection, violence, and possible criminal charges for “sexual harassment” twenty or more times.

Echoing what Alan says here – matey, if most of your “invitations to sex” result in harsh angry nos and/or sexual harassment accusations, chances are that it’s NOT a normal male experience, it’s NOT the fault of women, it’s that you’re actually being sexually harassing.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

What women usually respond with, when they don’t respond with a flat NO, is a “maybe.” That’s “maybe I will, if you spend enough money on me” or “maybe I will, if you do something for me first.”

….What makes men angry is that they end up serving a woman’s whims, at the expense of their time and money (which, really, is more time) and the woman decides she has no reciprocal obligation and prances away with the attitude of “there’s another man I got the better of.”

Hey, it’s not my fault that none of those lazy jokers met my totally reasonable demands: outfit a DeLorean DMC-12 with the correct time travel paraphernalia, set the date to June 1975, reach a speed of 88 miles per hour to activate the flux capacitor (use of lightening optional), and then travel back in time to ensure that my parents both go through with the blind date where they meet and fall in love. Most of them didn’t even try to get any plutonium. Why should I entertain the advances of somebody who displays such a lack of effort?

80’s movie hyperbole aside, I think mayhaps jenab6 is ignoring that little thing where women are socialized be nice and caring, and as such give soft “no’s” so that we don’t hurt anybody’s feelings. We’re not saying “maybe,” we’re saying “no thank you, please don’t get angry.”

And in my limited experience, even hard “no’s” leave a few men with the idea that there’s some room to negotiate. 🙁

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

Hey, it’s not my fault that none of those lazy jokers met my totally reasonable demands… Most of them didn’t even try to get any plutonium. Why should I entertain the advances of somebody who displays such a lack of effort?

Flying Mouse, you are now my new favourite person.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Nthing everyone else.

Propositioning random women who’ve never shown an interest is not likely to go well.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

There was a recent episode of Risk podcast in which a sex educator talks about a friend of hers who was very sexually open and how they’d have conversations like,
Him:”What ya wanna do today?”
Her:”Mmm…I dunno.”
Him:”Wanna have sex?”
Her:”Nah. No thanks.”
Him:”Wanna go swimming?”
Her:”OK.”
Very nonchalant. No pressure. No pouting at being rejected. NOT STRANGERS.
They were friends for a long time. They attended orgies together where her friend was very popular. She enthusiastically introduced him to her female friends. Everybody loved the guy. Context matters.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

Aw, thanks EJ! I’m a fan of your work here, too. 🙂

S.A.Lynden
S.A.Lynden
4 years ago

In my experience, most women (including Americans) do not know what they really want. They just go along with things according to how it feels.

Maybe it has escaped your notice, John, but there are female doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants, pilots and many many other professions that require a strong sense of logic and years of dedicated education and training.
Does that really sound to you like people who do not know what they want?
There are some women who may not know what they want. Many of us do know precisely what we want. There are also some men who do not know what they want. Stereotyping helps no one.

I think mayhaps jenab6 is ignoring that little thing where women are socialized be nice and caring, and as such give soft “no’s” so that we don’t hurt anybody’s feelings. We’re not saying “maybe,” we’re saying “no thank you, please don’t get angry.”

This hits the nail on the head. When I was younger, a man I didn’t know well asked me on a date. I said, “No thank you, I’m not interested.” He got angry, yelling at me, saying I was stuck up and I should give him a chance. Not a chance, a short temper is not an attractive quality.
Still, in future I was more cautious when rejecting a man, telling him something like “I’m busy.”

There is a catch-22 for women. If we are honest and straightforward about a lack of interest, we risk a hostile confrontation. If we make up excuses to let them down easily, we’re being ‘wishy-washy’ or ‘don’t know what we want’ and the person may persist and be pushy. It’s not a good situation.

The Honest Truth
The Honest Truth
4 years ago

But unfortunately they’re now worse altogether.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

Well, that’s it, ladies, this truth bomber has declared us “worse” now. Than what and when, we don’t know, but he sure showed us!

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
4 years ago

I like how there’s this whole thing with Charlottesville going on right now but trolls still find the time to call out the true enemy : WIMMINZ.

Ee
Ee
3 years ago

Anyone who thinks guys are completely rational and not emotional has obviously never met a man in their lives. I call bullshit. ?

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