Oh dear. The Spearheaders are talking about the Slutwalks again. The discussion may be the worst on the subject that I have run across so far. Some of the lowlights:
Keyster seems downright pissed that women actually have the right to say no:
They’re high functioning children with sexual power and they don’t want you to forget it. They’re outraged that just because a young woman dresses and acts in a sexually provocative manner, that she might receive unwanted attention from young men that don’t appeal to her.
She should be able to dress like a street whore and abuse alcohol to the point of delerium and they feel compelled to lecture us on how that doesn’t mean this is an advertisment to be sexually harrassed, sexually assaulted or heaven forbid raped. …
They want the “RIGHT” to dress as sexually provocative as they want to without being constantly annoyed by lowly beta males. They’d prefer you not “sexually victimize” them, unless you’re hot and they’re into you, then it’s totally OK. …
Remember this: She didn’t bother to get dressed up for the likes of YOU. Her hope was a worthy athelete or Hollywood star might notice her and talk to her; not some weak, pathetic loser …
“We’ve got the sexual power, the power of consent, the gate keeper of the holy vaginal crevice. See our bouncing propped up cleavage, our long legs and glorious ass protruding from those heels? You want it don’t you?
….ha, ha, ha…you can’t have it because I SAY SO! Because I have THIS power over you, lowly little man. Bow down to me and beg me a little, I might even let the others see me talking to you, without calling the cops.” …
This isn’t feminism, it’s flaunting female sexual power in the faces of men.
You’re seriously complaining that woman have the “power of consent!?” EVERYONE has the power of consent. No one male or female is obliged to have sex with anyone they don’t want to. That’s, you know, rape. It bothers you that women are the “the gate keeper[s] of the holy vaginal crevice?” Who the fuck else should be the gatekeeper of a person’s vagina other than the person whose vagina it is? The mind reels. But apparently the 50+ upvoters of this piece of abhorrent nonsense aren’t bothered by any of this.
Demirogue, meanwhile, suggests we need to better discipline our women:
While perusing FB last week I came across the newest deviation of this mentality which is going topless. … And they want to cry about rape? They need to cry but only because people said enough is enough and started to belt them on their asses.
Women need to be controlled and on a very, very short leash. They’ve been given every right, every option, every opportunity to be something and what do they do with it? Abuse and manipulate it with reckless abandonment and incessant demands.
Geography Bee Finalist himself thinks the slutwalkers must be retarded:
I wouldn’t worry too much about these Slutwalk sows.
They have no redeeming features. None.
They cannot figure out that if you dress like a whore, you deserve to be treated in a disrespectful manner. Even conservatively dressed mentally retarded women can figure this out and conduct themselves with more propriety and intelligence than these Slutwalkers … .
Knuckledragger blames it on those damned suffragettes:
…we let ‘em drive, we let ‘em vote, and this is what we get.
Ridiculous to even offer attention to another excuse to dress like a whore, goof off in public, and not bring me a beer.
Any man worth his salt should fire any skank who was “sick” from work to attend this nonsense.
SingleDad seems to think that all accusations of rape are made up:
Rape is now the extra tax women charge men if some how their unsatisfied with whatever arrangement was made before or after any encounter in or outside of marriage.
Other lowlights:
Poiuyt agreeing with Anders Breivik’s “observations surrounding this femaleist pandemic,” while adding that he “is to be rebuked for taking the wrong cureative actions to solve it.”
Demirogue (in a second comment) complaining that “overvalued pussy is all [women today] have to offer and only to certain men.”
Anonymous age 69 explaining that “rape laws were intended to protect women of good character, from being sexually violated,” not “to protect promiscuous sluts .”
And more, much, much more. Many of the worst (including most of those quoted here) have many dozens of upvotes. Go read the thread yourself, if you think you can stomach it.
There are no arguments to rebut here; I can only repeat the basic message that the slutwalks are trying to convey: no one deserves to be raped, no matter what they are wearing or how much consensual sex they engage in. Even if they show some cleavage or prefer athletes and/or rocks stars to so-called beta males.
Okay. Let me put it this way. I’m not saying all women do it. But if there’s really nothing to this female sexual elitism thing, why is there this entire blogosphere partially devoted to the phenomenon? You can say MRAs and MGTOWs are crackpots but there are hundreds of them, at the very least. There has to be at least something there. What has led to many people to this same conclusion, if there’s absolutely no grain of truth in it?
People who can’t get dates trying to figure out why and deciding that it can’t have anything to do with them? That would be a fairly simple explanation.
You do know that there are women who have a hard time finding and/or maintaining relationships who are convinced that it’s because all men are chasing after bimbos/sluts/models what-have-you, and that’s why they can’t find a man, right?
To my knowledge there’s not an organized movement devoted to that, though.
Holly,
That’s because if it is true, then it is not a problem of wages, but of positions. That does not mean that there is no sexism, but the causality is very different. Lets assume as a thought experiment that men and women are paid the same if they do the same job, and men tend to be in more higher-paying jobs. This leads to a difference in average wages of x%. To combat this injustice, legislation mandates a wage increase for all women of x%, and now there is no more wage gap. Is the world now a more just place? I’d say no: instead of one instance of injustice (men being in higher-paying positions) there is now one more (women get better pay for doing the same job). To really combat the symptom of injustice, the gap in wages, in a just way, one needs to get at the core of the problem, and intervene there.
There’s a good example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox#Berkeley_gender_bias_case
What seemed to be a strong gender bias in graduate admissions against women is actually a gender bias slightly in favor of women, and women applying to more competitive fields. Again, this does not mean that there is no sexism, but that the sexism that appears at the surface may be very different from the one that actually causes it.
@MRAL:
The population in the US, right now, includes about 150 million men. Hundreds, even thousands, is barely a drop in the bucket. You have MRA websites which are devoted to feeling cranky about women, so naturally the types of people who devote time to those sites are ones that agree with its message.
It’s essentially like taking all the people in the US who hate the taste of chocolate, gathering them together in one spot, asking why chocolate is so terrible.
“Okay. Let me put it this way. I’m not saying all women do it. But if there’s really nothing to this female sexual elitism thing, why is there this entire blogosphere partially devoted to the phenomenon?”
Given that they can’t substantiate their fact claims that it is happening, the most parsimonious explanation is that it is because they are stupid.
“You can say MRAs and MGTOWs are crackpots but there are hundreds of them, at the very least”
There’s millions of creationists. Just because there’s a lot of people who share an opinion doesn’t make that opinion correct.
“There has to be at least something there. ”
No there doesn’t.
“What has led to many people to this same conclusion, if there’s absolutely no grain of truth in it?”
Idiocy.
@MRAL:
“To my knowledge there’s not an organized movement devoted to that, though.”
I wonder what Susan Walsh is up to?
“That’s because if it is true, then it is not a problem of wages, but of positions. That does not mean that there is no sexism, but the causality is very different. Lets assume as a thought experiment that men and women are paid the same if they do the same job, and men tend to be in more higher-paying jobs. This leads to a difference in average wages of x%. To combat this injustice, legislation mandates a wage increase for all women of x%, and now there is no more wage gap. Is the world now a more just place? I’d say no: instead of one instance of injustice (men being in higher-paying positions) there is now one more (women get better pay for doing the same job). To really combat the symptom of injustice, the gap in wages, in a just way, one needs to get at the core of the problem, and intervene there.”
If MRAs admitted that there was massive discrimination against women still, and merely objected to the specific claim that there was discrimination in pay, but acknowledged the hiring and promotion gaps, then this would hold water as the reason MRAs use it as a rebuttal.
That’s not what happens, though, at all. “No discrimination in wages, therefore no discrimination period”. We just had Clarence trying to say this, poorly, and failing. And he didn’t even succeed in substantiating that there is no discrimination in wages.
I imagine I’m not making any new points but I don’t much have time online to plow through the comments – but you hear this idiocy so much – I read one guy somewhere saying ‘in this society women have the absolute control over whether or not sex happens’. WTF though?
MEN ARE ALLOWED TO TURN DOWN SEX (AND DO SO). Men have absolute control over who does what with *their* penis, and where it goes. There is no right here that women have that men don’t.
There is no discrimination in wages.
How do you know?
MRAL, there are entire websites with comments sections full of women complaining about not being able to find a man. There are magazines that some women buy whose main content is about finding and keeping a man. There are bookshelves full of books devoted to the subject. Move in some circles of women and it will be nearly all they discuss.
Now, I realize that since you don’t socialize with very many women you don’t know this but, I assure you it’s true. It flies below your radar because you’re emotionally invested in the idea that all women want Brad Pitt, and won’t talk to you, and chase “alphas” and an assortment of other foolish ideas.
But there are women who pay for seminars similar to those conducted by the PUA gurus (with about the same level of success; read very little), who drag themselves to the newer “upscale” urban strip clubs that have happy hours, who make lists of sports’ bars, etc., all because they think that they can’t meet men and want to have relationships. And a great many of them are convinced that there must be something wrong with them or wrong with men.
The fact that they haven’t assigned themselves “club” titles and acronyms, or don’t call themselves a “movement” doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.
Okay, so let’s say that’s true, for the purposes of this discussion. They’re probably all overweight. Not saying that as an insult, just a fact.
@MRAL:
How do you know? (Not being facetious)
“Okay, so let’s say that’s true, for the purposes of this discussion. They’re probably all overweight. Not saying that as an insult, just a fact.”
Fatties actually tend to have *more* sex than average. 😀
“There is no discrimination in wages.”
What a pathetic little fool, only capable of reading his gospel.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.172.6634&rep=rep1&type=pdf
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2007/07/art3full.pdf
Misogynists who are only attracted to women should stay lonely; that way your toxic shit doesn’t have to affect someone who you know intimately.
MRAL, I know that you’re young. And I know that your level of solipsism is not restricted to youth, necessarily. But you can’t actually believe this. Surely, you see that this is part of the wall you’ve created that helps you make sense of the world as you believe that it is, while blocking the view of the way it actually it is.
I know that it’s hard to process new information. Breathe. Listen. Don’t immediately fall back on “sputter, sputter, fat women, sputter.”
There are women out there in the world who have a very hard time meeting men and having relationships. They talk about it all the time. If you have to believe that they’re all fat -even though you know that there are plenty of fat women who have relationships- just to make sense of these new fact, I don’t know what to say.
Oh, MRAL, looky here:
“But if there’s really nothing to this female sexual elitism thing, why is there this entire blogosphere partially devoted to the phenomenon?”
“Okay, so let’s say that’s true, for the purposes of this discussion. They’re probably all immature five year olds. Not saying that as an insult, just a fact.”
“Okay, so let’s say that’s true, for the purposes of this discussion. They’re probably all overweight. Not saying that as an insult, just a fact.”
You assume that they’re correct, and further assume that they’re overweight.
ARe you putting forth a serious attempt to be named king of the morons?
Female “sexual elitism” does exist, sort of. Women do want to sleep with some men more than others. Where you fall down is in thinking:
1) That it’s all the same people.
2) That it’s all about looks and/or asshole swagger.
and
3) That this is some kind of injustice.
So we’re elitists in the sense that we don’t want to sleep with everyone exactly equally, but not in the sense that we’re making an organized effort to snub omegas and go after rock stars.
Also, you haven’t got a leg to stand on when you don’t exactly find all women equally sexy.
*insert MRAL stuttering about how fatties don’t *deserve* sex because, with just a little self-discipline, they could be hot! Not like *me*!*
Except this: (removing, unusually “sensitive” cap and returns to normal)
All the by-numbers ranking systems, and absurdly complicated “Greek” systems (greater beta, seriously?) and websites complaining about sluts, hypergamy, rock-stars and thug boys, haven’t provided you with any encouragement, given you any useful tips, or helped you in any tangible way in your quest to meet women and, maybe, have a relationship where sex is a possibility.
You spend your “time” with and defend people who tell you that you’re a “beta” and that women are hypergamous because it gives you a sense of solidarity. Fine. But that’s a sausage party.
@Molly your link doesn’t work!
@Nobby: Crud.
http://jezebel.com/5072249/study-shows-overweight-women-have-the-most-sex
I once tried to host a sausage party. I bought some premium links from Germany, learned how to use a grill, and even sent out invitations to all my friends and people in the area! Unfortunately, the only people who came were men, and they seemed really disappointed when they arrived.
*sigh* I must not be a very good host…
[/snark]