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Men's Rightsers offer innovative new theory about rape and feminism. And by "innovative" I mean horrifying.

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Paul Elam: “Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.”

There’s a post on the AgainstMensRights subreddit today highlighting a comment from a  Men’s Rights Redditor that offers some, well, interesting theories about why feminists are “obsessed” with rape and abortion, even though he thinks they are very ugly.

Actually, in his mind, it’s because they are very ugly, and secretly wish someone would be attracted enough to them to rape them.

Sasha_ 3 points 1 day ago   I can't help noticing that many of these women protesting so vehemently about rape seem to be...well I don't really know how to put it; but if they're rape victims then there must be some very odd rapists in the US; because some of those women are clearly about 15+ stone in weight and there're not what one would describe as 'traditionally attractive' - unless one's particularly attracted to scary she-beasts.  It does make me wonder whether some of these women are motivated by sexuar frustration? A great many female feminists seem to be quite unhealthily obsessed with rape in a disturbingly-obsessed way.  It goes right across the board really - feminists are always banging on about rape and abortion. It's as though half the time they're obsessed with being 'ravished' - and God knows half the books women read seem to be rape-fantasises like that 'Twilight' nonsense - and the rest of the time they obsessed with killing the results.  The more I think about it, the more I think that feminist are really quite creepy.

I’m sure there are MRAs out there who would like to dismiss his posting as the ravings of a random Redditor. Sadly, it’s not. Despite the terribleness of his “explanation,” or perhaps because of it,  it seems to be a common one amongst Manosphereians and Men’s Rightsers.

Indeed, in one notorious post a couple of years ago, A Voice for Men founder and all-around garbage human Paul Elam — probably the most important person in the Men’s Rights movement today — offered a much cruder version of this argument. [TRIGGER WARNING for some primo rape apologism. I have bolded the worst bits, and archived the post here in case Elam decides to take it down, as he has been doing with some of his more repellant posts].

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Isn’t it more than just a little fascinating that underneath all this hoopla about rape is a whole lot of women who, when thinking about some guy pinning them down in a kitchen and forcing a hand up their blouse, generally tend to do so with their own hand or a vibrator between their legs? …

And isn’t it also interesting that the most rape obsessive morons on the planet also happen to be some of the ugliest morons on the planet?

Consider this. If rape awareness was a religion, Andrea Dworkin was The Fucking Pope. The 300+ lb. basilisk of man-hate had a face big enough and pockmarked enough to be used to fake a lunar landing. Her body was roughly the size and shape of a small sperm whale.

And she thought of little else in her life other than rape. The subject drove almost everything she said and did.

She even claimed to have been drugged and raped in 1999 in Paris, an accusation that was never proven and which came under a great deal of scrutiny, apparently for damned good reason.

C’mon people, Dworkin’s problem wasn’t that she was raped. Her problem, and I mean all along, was that she wasn’t.

Oh, it gets worse:

Like a corrupt televangelist who only shuts up about sexual purity and morality long enough to secure the services of a five dollar hooker, Dworkin was the poster child for “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”

Or, in other words, she was obsessed with rape, quite possibly even creating the illusion it happened to her, precisely because her worth on the sexual market was measured in pesos.

Dworkin wanted to be raped, which in her mind meant being sexually desired, but didn’t have the goods to make that happen so she made a career of hating both the source of her rejection, men, and the source of her competition, attractive women.

In the end, the most narcissistic of all Men’s Rightsers concludes that rape is all about female narcissism:

The concept of rape has a lot of utility for women. One, it feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. Two, if feeds their narcissistic need to feel irresistible. That level of irresistibility is the pinnacle of a woman’s sexual viability and worth. And for a whole lot of women, sexual worth is the only self-worth they know.

A Voice for Men’s domestic violence mascot Erin Pizzey seconded Elam’s argument during an appearance of hers last year on Reddit.

If you’re referring to Paul’s statement that many or most women fantasize about being taken, I’m sorry but that’s the truth. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped, but it’s a fantasy I think almost all women have. And I think he went on to say that feminists like Andrea Dworkin who were and are so obsessed with rape are really projecting their own unconscious sexual frustration because men don’t give them enough attention. Andrea was a very sad lonely woman like this

This is an “insight” that many other manosphereians keep reinventing and announcing to the world. In a 2013 post, for example, the “Red Pill” blogger and sometime Return of Kings contributor who calls himself TheMaskAndRose offered a very similar take on the subject.

Feminists are ugly women. They are fat, old, masculine, aggressive, hateful, sociopathic, unattractive, or any combination of those things. Attractive women tend not to be Feminists, so I encourage you to think about why that’s the case. So keeping in mind that they’re not the type of women who normal men desire or pay any attention to, here’s my theory:

Rape culture is the ugly woman’s rape fantasy.

I think the true heart of a rape fantasy is narcissism.

I think it’s about the idea of saying NO to a man, over and over, but he throws caution to the wind and gives into the animal instinct to just overtake you–because you’re so attractive, so beautiful, so alluring, so irresistible that he just can’t help himself.

It’s about being wanted, more than anything else. Wanted so badly that a man would risk throwing his whole life away just for the chance to put his penis in you.

So, since Feminists and unattractive women generally don’t have men paying any attention to them at all–at least not the sexual kind of attention they crave but won’t admit to … they instead cast themselves in the role of heroine in a cultural narrative whereby men think they’re just so fucking deliciously hot that they can’t wait for the chance to rape them.

They project that insanity onto the world around them, and voila–“rape culture.” A world full of scary men so overtaken with lust and desire for these fat, ugly, manly cow-beasts that you never know when one of them is going to risk his career, family, money, and life outside of prison just to have sex with you.

There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for why feminists tend to be “obsessed” with rape: because it happens all the fucking time.

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kittehserf - MOD
kittehserf - MOD
7 years ago

I liked one comment (from tumblr? twitter? No idea) about how the commenter would love to live out one fantasy scenario from 50 Shades of Dreck – the one where someone goes straight into a job after graduation.

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

Ugh, Hardy. Yeah, his later books were written when he was clinically depressed, right?

Yeah. I can see where you guys are going there.

Never thought of that angle, actually.

gillyrosebee
7 years ago

Okay, that’s it. I want to sign up with Mars One because I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.

TW for incest:

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/what-its-like-to-date-your-dad.html

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

OK, that’s pretty creepy.

Not as creepy as abuse or rape, but pretty creepy.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@GroundPetrel:

Must not have read far enough then. 😛 Again, I haven’t either, but apparently 50sog tries to engrave the connection into your mind, with both Anna and Christian referencing Tess of the D’Urbervilles (it might even be Anna’s favorite book) constantly and with Anna wondering if she was Tess.

If you want, you really should read through some read-throughs. Maybe the characterization through some second-hand source might be a bit better?

I dunno… your other comment did give me a better concept of where you were coming from, which made me realize that my comment was off-base. Sorry about that.

I don’t get it myself; I have a very strong suspension of disbelief with regards to flat characters, but it did bug me that you were so insistant on denying basic labels like “man” and “woman” to them. It’s such a basic idea to me those labels can refer to fictitious characters as well as flesh-and-blood creatures, and I don’t understand what other significance they have that you’d want to deny to the 50sog characters.

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

Eh, it’s fine, kirbywarp. I know I’m a young, immature dude, and part of why I’m in college is to make me less of a young, immature dude.

And personally, I can’t stand flat characters, but something about these two went above and beyond flat characters that have annoyed me before. I mean, I usually refer to the “Twilight” main bricks as “the bloodsucker, the pedophile poodle, and the hood ornament”, but these two rubbed me the wrong way more than usual.

Sorry for creeping people out, that wasn’t intended and was rooted in a very subjective judgement.

I mean, normally I do treat characters like people. It was just this one case that, I dunno, maybe just creeped me out to an absurd extent.

Anyway. Sorry about that.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@gillyrosebee:

That article… seems strangely intent on trying to portray that “attraction between estranged relatives” thing as an ingrained behavioral thing rather than a really simple “this isn’t a person I view as a relative due to the estrangement and all.” I’m uncomfortably unsure if it’s the sort of thing that Warren Farrel would put forward…

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@GroundPetrel:

Alright then. At least it turned into a discussion with a nice resolution, unlike earlier with another person. 🙂

contrapangloss
7 years ago

It’s so nice for at least one discussion to end sort of well. Just, try to be a little more careful in the future, alright?

Still, thanks, GroundPetrel.

Also, based on your comments, the Jenny Reads FSlG is probably right up your alley. She complains a lot about that kind of stuff, initially.

gillyrosebee
7 years ago

I’m uncomfortably unsure if it’s the sort of thing that Warren Farrel would put forward…

Mark my words, someone in the manosphere is going to use that as justification for their nonsense

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

Lemme google that thing, actually…it might help me understand those crapsacks.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

I can vouch for Jenny’s awesomeness. I think she was the first one I read, actually.

@gillyrosebee:

I’d even wager it’ll be all over the manosphere within a week.

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

damn you all, I need to puke now.

Jenny’s awesome, but i need to puke. Then cry. Then cuddle Sho-San (my stuffed panda, who I’ve had since I was about 1 and I’m not afraid to admit that I still sleep with her every night for comfort purposes). Then call my mom tomorrow morning and thank her for raising me better than the creepy shithead.

Ugh. How the fuck did any of this shit get published???

alaisvex
alaisvex
7 years ago

It got published because it got so popular on ff.net first. It helped that it was originally as BDSM Edward/Bella fanfic because those are (or at least were) very popular in the Twilight ff.net community. Now, ff.net is populated by a lot of people who are teenagers, inexperienced sexually, and therefore not familiar with BDSM but very into tropes like “dub con” (i.e. dubious consent, which is somehow different from rape in their minds). So, Fifty Shades of Grey and its sequels (then Master of the Universe) were very widely read and reviewed on ff.net, so E.L. James was able to use that to self-publish successfully enough to get a deal with a major publishing company.

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

So it’s like creepy piled on lack of ethics piled on stupid piled upon the morass that is Twilight.

Yup, it’s a good thing that I stopped reading those crapsacks.

alaisvex
alaisvex
7 years ago

Anyway, if we’re still making troll bingo cards, can we add a space for Fifty Shades of Grey?

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

Here’s the link to Cliff’s Fifty Shades index: http://pervocracy.blogspot.se/p/fifty-shades-of-grey-index.html
He’s quite busy now with his new job though, there was a several months long gap between chapter 24 and 25, and he has yet to finish the book. But I really like his reading of it since, as I said, he’s so loyal to Ana, and takes the whole thing fairly seriously while also making jokes when the occasion rises. Also, since he’s both a sub and masochist for many years, and has sadly experienced physical abuse and rape (the rape in a BDSM-setting) (he’s written about all this on the blog), he knows very much what he’s talking about.

mildlymagnificent
7 years ago

For a really good take on that godawful “attraction”-between-estranged relatives thing, otherwise known as adult incest, I reckon Tauriq Moosa is a good place to start. Maybe even to finish. I certainly don’t have any desire to read any more about it.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/indelible/2015/01/16/the-ethics-of-fucking-your-father-its-not-about-disgust/

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

Welp, I finished Jenny’s sporking.

Anybody know if there’s a specific thread I should use to fix Sho-San? I clutched her so hard that part of her tore, and I’m kind of distraught. I have a needle and some thread (because I fortunately know how to quilt), but I need something durable that won’t be visible.

Oh, and the crapsacks didn’t get any better. The only good part was where the diametric opposite of the female protagonist was represented as the Twelfth Doctor’s magnificent eyebrows.

Thanks to whoever first recommended that particular sporking.

Falconer
Falconer
7 years ago

You might try this.

Did you get a Welcome Package yet? If not, scroll up until you see the candle on the right (right under the lavender seal) and click on that.

GroundPetrel
GroundPetrel
7 years ago

Thank you, Falconer.

My sewing knowledge is mostly in quilting, so fixing my much beloved panda is not something that I’m good at.

And yeah, I did look at the Welcome Package. It was…very penguiny. Which is good, since penguins are kind of awesome.

Falconer
Falconer
7 years ago

Penguins are all kinds of awesome.

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