Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
Note also that a false accusation tends to be a case of mistaken identity and *drum roll* racial disparity!
Citations on that, the former I can probably dig up, the latter is inference based facial recognization of crime victims (it sucks, more so if the perpetrator is a different race)
And it really sucks if a mask or such was worn (but that was one of my undergrad research papers, so no citation on that)
RE: Argenti
You’re royalty. Thanks! (And wow, it was only a year ago… god, my sense of time is so bollocksed.)
There ya go, genderneutrallanguage. Argenti kindly supplied links. I’d certainly appreciate seeing some to counter it; I’d take the MRM a little more seriously if they actually showed they cared about men.
Damn enter key! That was meant to end in ‘different kinds of men.’
“And no, you can’t ignore the direction. It exists.”
OK, I agree injustice can and often is direction and/or gendered. If you think this is the case, use the definition presented by Cogent Comment. It is a non-gendered, non-directional definition. If it is truly directional it will be directional by practice and you can demonstrate that. If it is not actually gendered or directional in practice, you need a gendered and directional definition to make it look that way.
“If men aren’t privileged why are they paid more for the same jobs?”
Men are not. Different pay for different work is a very different problem than different pay for same work. Equally qualified equally experienced doing an equal amount of equally difficult work are getting paid the same. The wage gap is unequal pay for unequal work. There is a 3%-7% wage gap that is explainable by discrimination, but that would be not getting promotions not unequal pay for equal work.
“Why are they sexualized so much less often and less dehumanizingly then women?”
Women are often seen as sex objects.
Men are often seen as success Objects.
Both are equally dehumanizing and destructive.
“Why are they not expected to do housework, much less half of it?”
Well because men work more outside the home. Total work, paid and unpaid is 46 hours per week on average for both men and women. Yes, women are doing more unpaid work. If you think this should change you first need to understand what is really happening.
“Why are they in so many more govt. positions?”
Because there is a tiny minority of men that are privileged, but don’t share that privilege with men in general.
“Why is 18-34 year old white men a ‘core audience’ for so many things, but targeting to women is a risk? ”
OMG OMG OMG there exists a demographic called whited OMG OMG OMG there is a demographic call men OMG OMG OMG. Someone is making products for these people OMG OMG OMG the world is coming to an end. Women account for 50% of consumer spending. Many things are targeted at women. That things are targeted for white males means nothing more than white males are a demographic that exists. It is risky to market products designed for one demographic to a different demographic.
The more you harp on this, the less willing I am to engage with you…
Damn, is there some kind of privilege denying-bingo I can find…?
Things that have been given to me on the basis of me being white:
*Most of the positions in government are represented by someone of my race.
*Most of the heroes in TV and movies are represented by someone of my race.
*When my dad’s grandparents immigrated to the US, they did not have to face racism in addition to whatever difficulties they faced based on being immigrants
*I have not been shown TV ads that highlight features of another race as exclusively beautiful.
*People do not come up to me with inaccurate stereotypes based on my race
And much, much more!
It, and anything one subset of the population experiences at rates varying from the average, is of interest to highlight a disparty. In this case a racial one, but it’s the same sort of thing as how the murder rate among trans* people (and particularly trans* WoC) is much higher than the national average — in raw numbers far more cis people are killed annually, but risk wise, trans* people face a risk of murder that’s about ten times the average. I was trying to apply similar math to suicide rates by race, but having utterly failed to find anything saying whether those rates where already adjusted, genderneutrallanguage might be right that whites and Native Americans commit suicide at similar rates.
Wait, I am still confused. It says right there that they are per 100,000. You even used that as a multiplier. They’re rates. They are always reported like that for exactly that reason. That’s what it means when the CDC says “rate”. Basically, no one ever reports raw numbers because they are almost never helpful.
I really hate to give GNL credit here, but it seems like you did lots of math for nothing. (Knowing you love math, I just assumed you were trying to illustrate some other point).
Has anyone emailed David for a sock check? This meltdown time, and nature, is Very Fucking Familar…ALmost like we do this ALl the damned time.
“You fail on so many damned levels. First and foremost being that I was enjoying one of those huge lollies and I had to remove my decadent treat from my mouth to reply to you”
XD it’s so true thoug… I need chocolate, but I just ate dinner and am full. What should I do?
I couldn’t figure out if that was per 100,000 whites/Native Americans/etc of per 100,000 Americans. Guess I should’ve been clearer on that point.
But yeah, it was a rate of something in the first place, and I bloody hate statistics that aren’t clear on the of what question.
Raw numbers = useless = yes. I keep trying to come up with a case where they might have meaning, and I’ve got nothing good (that is, nothing that can’t be expressed just as well as in percentages…number of vanilla ice cream cones sold versus percent of cones that were vanilla = same thing…and yes, all my off the cuff examples are ice cream related)
Why would you bring racism into this, Argenti?! Don’t you know cis het white men need something to feel oppressed by? //not saying there can’t be class oppression or ableism oppression here/// Seriously, though.
citation needed.
APEX FALLACY!
sorry, I couldn’t resist.
Men are passing laws on women, men were given the vote long before women, men have been able to be elected long before women.
But still, men are so oooopppppppprrrreeessseeeedd!!!! :waaaaah:
Waaaahahahhahhhhhhhhh!!!!!
It must be so sucky to be stereotyped as successful!!!!
Please tell me more about how the patriarchy oppresses men! Especially white men! They’re the most oppressed!
shorter gnl
“Women are sexual, there will never be a time when there is no presentation of women as sex objects. The same is true for men. Once women are objectified to the same extent men are, problem is solved. It stops being a gendered issue. No objectification at all is an unachievable goal.”
WTF did I just read?
Dude, “Women are sexual, there will never be a time when there is no presentation of women as sex objects”? Do you know what being a “sexual object” even means?
“Once women are objectified to the same extent men are, problem is solved.” Please, give me examples of the widespread sexual objectification of men. Are there men being displayed in skimpy clothes to sell things? Are heroic men being portrayed in movies while wearing as little as possible as they charge into battle while being fired upon?
@gnl
“Men are not. Different pay for different work is a very different problem than different pay for same work”
Don’t have stats for jobs, but does anyone remember where I left that link for Same amount education? Feminist Disney linked to the source and I posted link to her tumblr a while ago, since it had graphs for quick comparison. Just can’t navigate well on this iPad:/
“Women are often seen as sex objects.
Men are often seen as success Objects.
Both are equally dehumanizing and destructive.”
Haha. No.
“Well because men work more outside the home. Total work, paid and unpaid is 46 hours per week on average for both men and women. Yes, women are doing more unpaid work. If you think this should change you first need to understand what is really happening.”
Women do way more combined. I do understand what is happening (sexist assumptions that women are better suited for housework) but I don’t think you do.
“Because there is a tiny minority of men that are privileged, but don’t share that privilege with men in general”
Lol tiny minority my ass…
“OMG OMG OMG there exists a demographic called whited OMG OMG OMG there is a demographic call men OMG OMG OMG”
You disingenuous twit. Read what I said. 18-34 yr old white men (not just white. Not just men. Plus the age range, it’s a much smaller amount of the population). So many shows, comics, movies are targeted at that population. Way more than those at women.
GNL: False rape accusations are as much (at a minimum) of a problem within the subset of rape accusations as rapes are within the general population. There are 20 studies there with rates ranging from 1.5% to 90%. I’m not claiming the high end is accurate. I’m claiming the lowest reported rate of false accusations is accurate.
So, per your claim above there are fewer incidents of false rape accusation than there are of false robbery.
Since there are far more robberies than rapes, the real problem is false reports of robbery.
It can be changed. “Rape Culture” just isn’t the way to do it. “Rape Culture” will make the problem worse.
How?
White is not a benefit, black is a liability.
When competing in the trials for the Olympics (in the 100m sprint) fast is not an advantage, slow is a disadvantage.
This makes as much sense as what you wrote. If one thing is a disadvantage, the reverse is an advantage. If all people who aren’t white are disadvantaged, the being white is sure as fuck advantageous.
GNL: Well there are 5-6 posts that try to trivialize the issue by asserting women’s attempts are more important.
Dense, or willfully obtuse? No one is saying women’s attempts are, “more important”, we are saying the MRM (yourself included) is focusing on results (so they can say men are suffering more than women) than the root problem, which is despair/depression/etc. which leads people to be suicidal.
The only discounting being done here, is by you.
Well there is me. I think that I’m a rather good example of MRM and equality feminists advocating for very similar things.
If you (see above, re suicide) are a good example, there is reason the MRM is not well thought of; because if you are the best they’ve got, they suck worse than I thought.
Tactics do matter. There are idiots and bigots on both sides. I’ll agree to ignore your crazies if you agree to ignore the male crazies (and if you can actually point out a MRA crazy that’s not strawman or quote mining I will make a post denouncing them)
Paul Elam. Eivind Berg. Warren Farrell.
That’s three, go to town.
But you won’t. You’ll say they don’t count, etc. So go ahead, give me some names/blogs/websites which are representative of the non-malignant MRM, the “pro-equality” MRM. The MRM which is really fellow-travelling with Feminists.
I don’t want to be associated with people advocating murdering single mothers just like you don’t want to be associated with people advocating throwing toddlers through 5th story windows.
Whut? Who is advocating for throwing toddlers out of windows?
I’ve read your blog. It’s incoherent shit. I went and talked about why it’s incoherent shit in some other thread here on manboobz. Unless you’ve hired an editor the only way you get me to read any more is to pay me.
If you know of a real substantial advantage that men have over women, one that is not rooted in greater costs or obligations, tell me about it. I’ve yet to hear one.
They get paid more for the same job. They get paid more when they have equivalent levels of education.
That’s two. Now you’ve heard of them, so you can stop looking stupid. But I’ll bet you’ve heard of them before, and still deny them, so if you want to stop being stupid, you’ll have to stop letting your ideological blinders keep you from facing facts.
Fade — http://feministdisney.tumblr.com/post/8568399087/chart-of-the-day-depressing-pay-gap-statistic
Pecunium — either you read your email 3 seconds after it arrives, or ignore my last email, it was that you needed to come see this (damn man, you’re on top of shit today!)
And that was Marie, not Fade, sorry guys!
We just got back from the play.
Now to watch Dr. Who.
“‘I don’t want to be associated with people advocating murdering single mothers just like you don’t want to be associated with people advocating throwing toddlers through 5th story windows.’
Whut? Who is advocating for throwing toddlers out of windows?”
I missed that, odds are he’ll say “no one did, but I don’t want to murder single mothers!”
His bullshit analogy fails are on my nerves.
If you mean last nights, my only non-spoiler commentary is that sometimes you just need a Sontaran.
I couldn’t figure out if that was per 100,000 whites/Native Americans/etc of per 100,000 Americans. Guess I should’ve been clearer on that point.
Ahh, the penny drops! That makes more sense.
Hmm, you know, while I’ve always assumed (and am, in fact, pretty certain) that rate data is always “by 100,000 of that same category” it doesn’t appear to be clearly indicated anywhere. Huh.
I’m gonna have to leave in 20 minutes and hang out with my friend’s toddler. I’ll try not to drop her out a fifth story window.
Aaaaaaand, no response from GNL to my thing with Antz yet. I feel so unloved and alone. :(*
*not really
e” Is the crux of your argument here that discussing these things in terms of the detrimental effect on other races”
yea this is the crux of my argument. If White is “Privileged” that is a bad thing. These privileges need to be taken away so that there is a level playing field. Identifying “Privilege” is identifying a group that needs torn down. Identifying “disadvantage” identifies a group that needs lifted up. This is a very important distinction.
“can you offer my skeptical mind some evidence that the MRM would accept me? ”
Well there is a lot more here than it may look like. First, not everyone will accept you. Not all feminists accept you and you can reasonably expect about the same level of resistance. People can be bigoted against one group while fighting bigotry against another. Kind of messed up I know, but that is the truth. Trying to shield you from truths like that will only do more harm than good.
2nd The advocacy of MRA is limited. There are specific topics that we are trying to draw attention to. We are not out to solve all of the worlds problems with one over reaching ideology that is everything to everyone. If you are not affected by these specific issues as an individual, you shouldn’t expect much advocacy for you.
3rd, MRM is issue centered, not people centered. If you want the same things that I want I would love to have you help me advocate for them. I don’t care about your personal identity. This is a non-issue, but you do bring a unique perspective. There was a Woman->Man transgender that wrote a post for AVFM. It was very interesting because people like you really have the ability to say what it’s like to be perceived as both male and female. The post on AVFM (really need to find that and bookmark it) talked about how he felt so much more powerful as a man. More respected and taken more seriously. He was also perceived as a potential threat. Another man moving in to compete for women’s attention. He was just unprepared and ill equipped to deal with the reality of being a man. It’s harsh brutal competition and no one cares if you get run over. The thing that was hardest for him to deal with was the lack of attention. It took weeks to notice, but once he did notice that no one ever commented on his appearance he became very self conscious about it, not understanding why no one noticed him any more. It was a difficult transition and not all peaches and cream on this side of the fence.
If you are facing or advocating for fathers in custody battles, almost all MRA would love to hear your perspective on it. If you are prepared to agnolage that parental rights and responsibilities is not a one sided women only issue, you have a great deal to add to the MRM and would be a good MRA. I imagine that it gets even more complex as a transgender. Courts used to dealing with a binary gender would have no clue what to make of you. If you can’t afford school anymore because your the wrong gender for scholarships. This is an issue the MRM faces.
There is no reason to exclude your voice from advocacy. It would be a very strong voice. Limited participation means limited focus, so we may not be talking about issues that affect you much. You are welcome to join. Your advocacy may be better served working with the Gay Rights community since there issues are better aligned with ones I’m assuming you face, and they are much better funded with much larger platforms than the MRM.
“So a woman is 50 times more likely to be raped than to make a false accusation. Equal rates, you said?”
The rate of false accusations within the subset of rape accusations is comparable to the rate of rape within the general population. I’ve worded this carefully. Stop refuting something I didn’t say.
“Feminism really isn’t *for* men directly, we’ll happily take on the social structures that affect men and women, but with birth control up for debate in 2012 somehow, we kind of have other shit going on.”
This is from the link refuting the CDC study. Do you know WHY birth control is up for debate AGAIN!!! Well it’s two fold. First horribly unbalanced power in parental rights. We have codified into law that women are the gatekeepers of reproduction. Women hold all the cards and have all the power. This is broken. Removing access to birthcontrol would reblance. 2nd there isn’t a newer issue to talk about. If a bill for legal paternal surrender was presented, you can be damn sure that Jesus freaks would drop the birth control line and start fighting LPS.
Also. I used the one year numbers because there is clearly something wrong with the lifetime numbers. 25% of all rapes against men didn’t happen in the last 12 months. There are collection or reporting faults for the lifetime numbers.
So what? Your point is worthless. In the end, rape still happens way more often than false accusations. There are way more reported and unreported rapes combined than false accusations. You can’t deny this; it’s in the numbers. Sorry.