Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
Also, kindly fuck off.
“How many of them are actually offensive is there is no assumption of dominance or power disparities?”
How many of (these things clearly attributable to whites having colonized America) are actually offensive? Well you can add “the is no assumption of … power disparities” to the list.
Get back to me when your children are routinely being put into foster homes and intentionally denied their cultural heritage, when within the last few decades your women where suffering forced sterilization, when they’re still being raped at rates far exceeding those of white women, when missing people of your race are routinely ignored by police. Kindly fuck off.
Or I will cite every last fucking one of those statements. And I have this feeling you won’t even read anything that blantantly lays out how America still routinely, systemically, discriminates against Native Americans.
Oh and regarding suicide in general, the rates have spiked with the economic situation. Big surprise, I know.
I’ve had arguments with MRAs about how their movement doesn’t help rape victims at all, and I never get any concessions. The same thing happened when I argued with one MRA dude about how the MRM marginalizes trans* men. In fact, when I was pushy with him, all I got was “Well, you’re just trying to force your trans* agenda on us!” He was also telling me that I’m only experiencing dysphoria because I “failed” as a man and faced bullying for being “effeminate.”
MRAs fail at inclusivity – nothing new, unfortunately. V_V
Argenti, I wasn’t sure what point you were trying to make about population percentage with your calculation. I mean, your math included the fact that the numbers were per 100,000 (since they were an incidence rate). It seemed that your point was to show something about incidence rate in relation to population percentage, but I wasn’t sure why that was of any interest.
“Also, when we say that the problem is gendered, we are only saying that gender socialization is a relevant factor. Which implies that it can change.”
Then it is gendered by practice. Making it gendered by definition prevents it from changing. Presenting people as sex objects is damaging. This is overwhelming done to women. It is the overwhelming done to women that makes it gendered, not the definition. With a non-gendered and non-directional definition gendered by practice issues can change. Women are sexual, there will never be a time when there is no presentation of women as sex objects. The same is true for men. Once women are objectified to the same extent men are, problem is solved. It stops being a gendered issue. No objectification at all is an unachievable goal.
“PS, link me to the scientific survey that proves false rape accusations happen at the same frequency as rapes. It also must show it’s method of collecting data, too.”
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf
1.1% of women where raped in the last 12 months.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
The low end of false rape accusations is 1.5%
False rape accusations are as much (at a minimum) of a problem within the subset of rape accusations as rapes are within the general population. There are 20 studies there with rates ranging from 1.5% to 90%. I’m not claiming the high end is accurate. I’m claiming the lowest reported rate of false accusations is accurate.
“it shows clearly that women are far more likely to be raped than men.”
Well, what’s the definition. Half of the first page of comments is dedicated to showing that the legal definition of rape is not good. The NISVS above shows 1.1% of women where penetrated by force and 1.1% of men where forced to penetrate. If your study show women are far more likely to be raped then I question the collection and definitions.
“Sorry, if you’re telling me women being raped by men at a relatively high rate worldwie is just a fact of life and can’t be curbed, you telling me it isn’t a problem. Creep.”
It can be changed. “Rape Culture” just isn’t the way to do it. “Rape Culture” will make the problem worse.
“Are you one of those guys who thinks that white privilege and male privilege don’t exist?”
I accept nothing on faith. I’ve been told repeatedly that they do exist. I’ve never been shown any actual evidence. Do Whites have it better than blacks, yes. Is this “White privilege” or “disadvantaged blacks”. White is not a consideration in hiring or promotions, black is. White is not a benefit, black is a liability. Do men have it better than women? NO. Men do get paid more. Women work less hours, have more flexible schedules and work less demanding jobs. Overall men and women are about equal. In most things there are costs and benefits that are very different for men and women. Overall men and women are roughly equal, with women having a slight advantage. If you know of a real substantial advantage that men have over women, one that is not rooted in greater costs or obligations, tell me about it. I’ve yet to hear one.
The very concept of “Privilege” is why stuff like the greater rates of male and white suicide are so hard to swallow. It is really hard to accept that there are ways that whites or men have it worse if they are “Privileged”
“Women work less hours, have more flexible schedules and work less demanding jobs”
Fuck you. You’ve clearly never done anything I child care…less demanding my ass. Also, before my parents were divorced, my mom did work less hours (same job). She also did the cooking, most of the stuff with the kids, and most of the housework. Overall she did more work, she just didn’t get paid for a lot of it. If the housework were split up more evenly theyd both be blue to work more similar hours… But women are expected to do more housework, take time off for kids, ect.
In cnclusion, you’re full of shit.
“White is not a benefit, black is a liability”
I wonder why this is … ::spoiler space, racism::
Anyone see his links? I can’t follow them on the iPad.
RE: Aaliyah
Yeah, it’s a source of some minor aggro for me that I often feel that as a trans man, I shouldn’t be in women’s spaces, but I’m scared shitless of setting foot in a men’s spaces. Right now, I just hang in co-ed spaces only, but that becomes a problem with shit like possible homelessness, when I’m required to give a binary gender…
You’re relatively new here, so you missed the hilarible discussion between me and MRA Antz. I told him to try and convert me, and he eagerly complied… right until I told him I was gay and trans. Then he just flat-out told me there was no place in the men’s movement for me. Big shock, I know.
RE: genderneutrallanguage
I still have no earthly idea what you’re saying, but godDAMN, man, shut your face. I know nobody who’s been falsely accused of rape, but I know… lessee… at least ten people off the top of my head who’ve been raped. And guess what? Half of ’em were men.
White is not a consideration in hiring or promotions, black is.
OMG! You… you actually believe that.
I’m from the USA South, you dumbshit. You bet your ASS that my being white was a consideration in my hiring. It was unstated, because down there, it’s a tacit, accepted ‘common sense’ that a white person is better for a job. My cousin would regularly discuss how his landscaping business got work because it was an all-white crew.
The hell planet do you come from?
White is not a consideration in hiring or promotions, black is. White is not a benefit, black is a liability.
And you think this shows that privilege doesn’t exist, is that what you are saying?
“Who the fuck said shit about the definition of suicide being “men shooting themselves”?!”
I did. I’m made a clearly bullshit gendered definition of suicide so that we have something to compare to the bullshit gendered definition of “Rape Culture”
“exceeding those of white women”
Well I’m talking about gender differences not race differences. Language is limited to one word being written or read at a time, so I can’t make my arguments all inclusive of every one world wide at all times throughout history. I’m talking about males and females in modern western industrialized democracies, and more specifically the US. You know I’m correct and are just trying to muddy the water by bringing race into it.
“MRAs fail at inclusivity”
I call this staying on topic. I’m talking about the balance of power between genders. Including Drunk Driving in the conversation adds nothing to it.
Those rates of false accusation are not 12-month rates. Check out Rumney’s study itself (cited there) to confirm that if you wish.
Nice try, though! (Not.)
Your point about gendered definitions impeding progress are so absurd that they aren’t worth addressing.
And no, you can’t ignore the direction. It exists. Rape culture, in this society at least, encourages male sexual aggression. That’s because of the influence from the patriarchy.
And no one is saying “No objectification at all.” We just want to get rid of it as much as possible. But women aren’t at fault for being objectified; the people who objectify women are. There is no such thing as a woman whose status is a sex object; there is only the cultural perception of women as sex objects.
Practically the same definition the NISVS uses. First of all you are only relying on 12-month figures – lifetime figures show massive differences in the number of male victims and the number of female victims. And that figure I told you shows says that both rape and sexual assault are much lower for men than for women. Since rape + sexual assault are broad enough to cover female-on-male rape, there is no problem with the figures. They are accurate.
@GNL
“The very concept of “Privilege” is why stuff like the greater rates of male and white suicide are so hard to swallow. It is really hard to accept that there are ways that whites or men have it worse if they are “Privileged””
If men aren’t privileged why are they paid more for the same jobs?
Why are they sexualized so much less often and less dehumanizingly then women?
Why are they not expected to do housework, much less half of it?
Why are they in so many more govt. positions?
Why is 18-34 year old white men a ‘core audience’ for so many things, but targeting to women is a risk? (I think this applies to lots of things without a white protagonist too, but not an expert on that.)
If whites aren’t privileged why are POCs imprisoned at such a higher rate?
Why are they represented so less in media?
If white people don’t have privelge how come there are so many of them in the govt, and other positions of power?
How come Native American women are raped so much more often than white women?
White woman are sexualized and stereotyped, but not based on race, and not to the same extremes. , ex, they aren’t assumed to be sumbissive like East Asian women
I really could go on, but I 1) have to eat soon and 2) cannot see how you can live in reality and deny white and male privelge.
Waiting to see your answers.
http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf
More on false allegations.
RE: Aaliyah
You have way more patience for Skippy up there than I do. Sweet motherhumping sheep-Jesus, why do the guys who try and speak for guys like me have to be such ASSHOLES?
“I wonder why this is … ::spoiler space, racism::”
Agreed….but not PRIVILEGE.
“MRA Antz. I told him to try and convert me, and he eagerly complied… right until I told him I was gay and trans. Then he just flat-out told me there was no place in the men’s movement for me. Big shock, I know.”
Do you have a link to this? MRA Antz is an ass that needs to be called out on bullshit. Trans, gay, asexual, bisexual, nonsexual whatever. If you think that fathers should have equal parenting rights and responsibilities to mothers, you are welcome in the MRM. If you think that jobs/promotions should be awarded purely on the basis of merit, with gender not being a consideration. You are welcome in the MRM. If MRA Antz said you where not welcome based on sexual orientation or gender identity, that’s bullshit that needs to be called out.
“And you think this shows that privilege doesn’t exist, is that what you are saying?”
Yes. White is not a benefit. Whites have nothing unearned or undue given to them. Black is a liability. Things are due and earned are withheld. This is a very important distinction to be made.
@GNL
“Yes. White is not a benefit. Whites have nothing unearned or undue given to them. Black is a liability. Things are due and earned are withheld. This is a very important distinction to be made.”
…the distinction is only in your mind. White people don have to deal with racism, POCs do, white people have the privelge of not being affected by it.
Just like putting out fires with water prevents you from being able to be putting out fires by any other means.
IN THE LAST TWELVE MONTHS
What’s the timeline for false rape accusations?
In all of your ramblings you have failed to demonstrate this.
A) there are more PoC than just black people, and B) YOU GET BENEFITTED FOR NOT HAVING THAT LIABILITY!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHA
Oh wait, you’re serious. Should I laugh harder?
Men get paid more. Get in more decision making positions. Are not expected to do much housework or childcare.
Jeez, you know, I bet these expectations for housework and childcare ARE INFLUENCING WOMEN’S WORKING LIVES.
You know what, I’ve been through this all before, so the last paragraph in this old comment o’ mine
WAAAAAH, people pointing out I have privilege is just as bad at being paid less, sexually assaulted at a higher rate, assumed as less competent, kept out of higher paying jobs, shoved off with all the child care
Oh, wait, let me make a white people (USian) version
WAAAAAAH, you saying I might’ve had ancestors who were slave owners is just as bad as the fact that our economy was built off of slave labor, PoC are disproportionately incarcerated, PoC are disporportionately paid less, PoC are disproportionately kept out of higher power positions!!!
If I weren’t bored I’d probably stop by now. =P
That’s nice. Too bad most MRAs aren’t like you in that respect.
Yes. White is not a benefit. Whites have nothing unearned or undue given to them. Black is a liability. Things are due and earned are withheld. This is a very important distinction to be made.
Why, exactly? Is the crux of your argument here that discussing these things in terms of the detrimental effect on other races is more effective than pointing out that this – by definition – results in an advantage for the race not discriminated against? Is it purely a tactical decision based on “no one likes to hear that they didn’t earn what they have”?
First, “It seemed that your point was to show something about incidence rate in relation to population percentage, but I wasn’t sure why that was of any interest.”
It, and anything one subset of the population experiences at rates varying from the average, is of interest to highlight a disparty. In this case a racial one, but it’s the same sort of thing as how the murder rate among trans* people (and particularly trans* WoC) is much higher than the national average — in raw numbers far more cis people are killed annually, but risk wise, trans* people face a risk of murder that’s about ten times the average. I was trying to apply similar math to suicide rates by race, but having utterly failed to find anything saying whether those rates where already adjusted, genderneutrallanguage might be right that whites and Native Americans commit suicide at similar rates.
Second, seriously genderneutrallanguage, fuck off. You fail on so many damned levels. First and foremost being that I was enjoying one of those huge lollies and I had to remove my decadent treat from my mouth to reply to you. Onto more important things!
“Well I’m talking about gender differences not race differences.”
Yes, I’ve noticed that you only acknowledge intersectionality when it suits you. Ignoring racial disparities when race is a much bigger factor than gender (and particularly when gender is moot, eg police ignoring missing Native Americans) is fucking racist.
“I call this staying on topic. I’m talking about the balance of power between genders.”
No, you are not. You’re talking about specific examples of things you want to attribute to gender disparity when they’re actually attributed to racial disparity. Also, you said that there are no power differences, we can all scroll up — “How many of them are actually offensive is there is no assumption of dominance or power disparities?”
And no, you are not staying on topic when you’re just pulling shit out of thin air like “I did. I’m made a clearly bullshit gendered definition of suicide so that we have something to compare to the bullshit gendered definition of ‘Rape Culture'” — if you’re going to make analogies, make them fucking clear. Because that one sucks, mostly. You almost got it! Men do kill themselves more! And rape more! Suicide presentation efforts should focus on recognizing warning signs besides “is depressed” (they do!) and encourage seeking help // discourage the stigma of seeking help (which is stronger for “must not cry” style men, and…they do!). Rape presentation efforts should focus on *drum roll* teaching men what rape looks like and what isn’t acceptable (they don’t! Because rape culture!)
As for the NISVS, I already frisked that one year shit, give me a moment to find it.
>>>Is this “White privilege” or “disadvantaged blacks”.
There’s a difference?
NISVS — http://manboobz.com/2012/05/22/oh-the-questions-they-ask/comment-page-3/#comment-157167
And footnote because my wording was weird — http://manboobz.com/2012/05/22/oh-the-questions-they-ask/comment-page-3/#comment-157201
Oh Antz…
RE: genderneutrallanguage
Ah, bugger it, it was about two years ago; while I dig it up, can you offer my skeptical mind some evidence that the MRM would accept me? Thus far, I have seen no posts speaking in favor of men like myself.
RE: Argenti
Yo, your manboobzfu is better than mine; you don’t happen to have that old argument with Antz lying around, do you?
Also, if we assume, as shown in that BJS article I linked to, that only 36% percent of rapes are reported and that the rate of false accusation (for male-on-female rapes) is roughly 5.9% , it follows that (36%)*(5.9%) ~ 2% of all accusations are false.
So a woman is 50 times more likely to be raped than to make a false accusation. Equal rates, you said?
Oh Antz… http://manboobz.com/2012/03/22/heartiste-totally-dominate-your-woman-by-farting-in-bed-and-pretending-to-kill-her-cat/comment-page-3/#comment-138335
I do now 🙂