Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
I am done with Tamen’s links!! And yes, I do want a cookie for this.
“Key elements of legally defined rape are force or incapacitation, nonconsent, and penetration or attempted penetration. Gylys and McNamara (1996)”
“Likewise, the original versions did not measure ways in which women may potentially coerce sex from men and also prevented them from reporting same-sex victimization.”
Tamen, you are officially a lying sack of shit. I’d say you simply misrepresented the studies, but there is no fucking way you read the 18 non-citation pages of Revising the SES: A Collaborative Process to Improve Assessment of Sexual Aggression and Victimization (Koss et al, 2007) without seeing these quotes. One of them is in the same paragraph as your quote above!
So again, Struckman-Johnson has issues with downplaying the severity of male rape via forced penetration, but male rape via penetration is included, it all focuses on legal definitions. And there are specific questions related to expanding it to cover “pressur[ing] men into unwanted sex”. As for the “unwanted sex” wording, there’s a paragraph devoted to that, it’s gender neutral, and focused on illegal sex acts that the victim does not consider rape — people are more likely to respond to questions worded to focus on specific behaviors than the broad “were you raped?” (for oh so many reasons, that you’d know if you read your own links)
Tangentially — “To administer the male or female version accurately, the proctor has to make assumptions of gender by visual assessment, which is as problematic as making visual racial assessments. Other approaches that require respondents to self-identify as a man or a woman raise concerns about negative effects of public disclosure and exclusion of people who are transgendered.”
“Passing” privilege has been eliminated!
Seriously, I just read 70 pages of research paper wording to say that “forced to penetrate // forced sex // sexual assault wording is used because of how rape is legally defined”
Re: suicide method — there’s one giant flaw in this question. It’s kinda hard to know why anyone who kills themselves picked the method they did, they’re dead.
That aside, methods for attempts don’t vary as dramatically. For example — http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19069613 — I can only view the abstract, but it seems to be saying that method choice isn’t significantly different between men and women.
I’ll see what else I can dig up, with the caveat that methods for attempts may not generalize to methods for completed suicides (actually, they probably don’t, seeing how some methods are more deadly — you just won’t find nearly as many firearm attempts as, say, poisoning/overdose attempts…most people do not survive shooting themselves after all)
“So… what do you want to do about it? Gun control?”
Well we can start by not denying male suicide even a real issue. That would be a great start.
“That’s because it would be a form of slavery, dickhead.”
So legally enforcing parity at gun point is a bad idea? I couldn’t agree more. When are we going to stop doing it?
“really low expectations for men, which I guess you would not like. ”
Not so much….but I really would like to be able to take my kids to the park and not have to explain to the police that I’m not a child rapist looking for my next victim.
Child care is “The hardest job in the world”. You can argue that it’s either the hardest job women are capable of (but men can do much more) or that it’s a very hard job for men as well. Either/Or no third option. Well I suppose you could claim that stay at home Moms are just lazy deadbeats, that would be a third option.
“But rape culture exists. If you want it to not, work on dismantling it. ”
Rape culture does exist. It’s somewhere between man-hate and a tautology. Rape is bad, talking about it in terms of “rape culture” is worse. “Teach men not to rape” will do nothing but exclude non-rapists from interactions with women. Increase women’s interactions with rapists, increase rape. I want less rapes, not more.
“accusing men of child mole station to bias a judge is wrong, and lookie, we agree!”
This is why I keep hammering away at these topics. Once you get past your own preconceived bullshit, we agree. If no one bothers to talk about these topics they are quickly and quietly swept under the rug to keep the conversation on women. Once you get past the perpetual professional victim hood of feminism, The MRM is fighting for the same things “real” feminists are. How poorly most men articulate this is much more a symptom of schools failing boys than the men being sexist or hateful.
And…. a follow up? Would gun control help? I mean, right now the issue is males succeeding at suicide more often. So you need to work on preventing their success.
Nonsensical sentence is nonsensical: we are not doing it.
You could argue that you’re a sexist dickhead. Did anyone here say childcare was easy for men?
I think you hae an enormous lack of understanding. Rape culture exists. You have done nothing to disprove it, all you have is done whine that people say it.
Teach men not to rape: does not exclude non-rapists from interactions with women. How does it?
Now how about you get past your preconceived bullshit?
I’m sorry, let me go cry you a river. The school system is not failling men, unless you have some stats for this (and no, women enrolling in college more is not a stat, as i have previously mentioned, because women need to get more school to get the same pay as men with less)
And what MRM is doing for gender equality? Saying that they should not jail rapists? Saying that women hit their “prime” at 25? Saying that incest is good for children? Please tell me how these are the same goals feminists have
GNL: Well we can start by not denying male suicide even a real issue. That would be a great start.
You could stop lying about it, “not being a real issue”.
So legally enforcing parity at gun point is a bad idea? I couldn’t agree more. When are we going to stop doing it?
When did we start?
Not so much….but I really would like to be able to take my kids to the park and not have to explain to the police that I’m not a child rapist looking for my next victim.
I’m gonna say it didn’t happen.
Child care is “The hardest job in the world”. You can argue that it’s either the hardest job women are capable of (but men can do much more) or that it’s a very hard job for men as well. Either/Or no third option. Well I suppose you could claim that stay at home Moms are just lazy deadbeats, that would be a third option.
Whut?
It’s a hard job (I’ve done it). It’s one that gets short shirt. It’s one where expectations are radically different. If a man is taking care of kids, everyone has a warm fuzzy (even the cops at the playground). If a woman does it, they also ask how well she keeps house, comment on how well dressed she is, blame any “failures” of behavior on her, etc.
The dude, is given a pat on the back for what he does. When he hands the kid off to a woman, she’s “just doing what comes naturally”.
Rape culture does exist. It’s somewhere between man-hate and a tautology. Rape is bad, talking about it in terms of “rape culture” is worse. “Teach men not to rape” will do nothing but exclude non-rapists from interactions with women. Increase women’s interactions with rapists, increase rape. I want less rapes, not more.
Could you break this down. Because I don’t understand it. Use big words if you have to.
The MRM is fighting for the same things “real” feminists are.
Examples please. Also, tactics matter. Even if we assume (arguendo) this is true, the hate campaigns against women (Aria Richards, Kathy Sierra, RHA) are wrong. They taint your movement (again, stipulating, for purpose of argument that your clam “we want the same things” is true). Not because no feminist has ever done bad things; in the name of feminism, but because your group accepts,and supports it.
Yeah, the worst thing that happened to my dad when he was out alone with kids is the lady who was hitting on him freaked out when she figured out he had teenage daughters (she thought he was much, much younger)
My patience level is long past shot (I would say “you try reading Tamen’s 70 pages” but I did it so you won’t have to).
To answer the question about suicide methods, all I’ve found so far is this — http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/197/4/320.full
It’s specifically about hanging, and in the UK where firearms aren’t going to be a real common suicide method. Also, there at least, hanging has gender parity (of course, this really isn’t the sort anyone wants). But as for why? It’s seen as clean, quick, more or less painless, and is accessible.
I’ll see if I can find anything from a country where suicide by gun is actually feasible.
And genderneutrallanguage? Gun control just increases hangings, and who the FUCK said male suicide isn’t a real issue?!
“…but I really would like to be able to take my kids to the park and not have to explain to the police that I’m not a child rapist looking for my next victim.”
Option 1) this has never happened to you and is another MRM talking point that rarely occurs
Option 2) yet again you’re applying racism to all men
Those may well both apply. Should this have happened to you, I’m truly sorry, but it really isn’t a thing that most men face (or even fear, my cousin’s got his two boys in the Adirondack’s currently!)
@Argenti
To be fair, I was the one bringing up gun control (I did not know it just increased hangings). His idea for “doing something” was a fight vs the straw feminists in his head, aka trying to get people to admit it’s a problem.
Oh and fuck you, there’s a huge difference between “falsely accusing men of child molestation is wrong” and “all women make false accusations” — the MRM claim the later. And they’re the ones that need a reality check.
And I’m the one that needs more coffee and another clove (yep, I am that goth…they taste good!)
@gnl
“Well we can start by not denying male suicide even a real issue. That would be a great start.”
You’re fighting with straw men, bub. No one is denying its a real issue. Just that its a problem that affects only men, because it is not.
“So legally enforcing parity at gun point is a bad idea? I couldn’t agree more. When are we going to stop doing it?”
…where the heck does this happen?
” You can argue that it’s either the hardest job women are capable of (but men can do much more) or that it’s a very hard job for men as well. Either/Or no third option.”
…I don’t think it’s the hardest job in the world. I think different people are better/ less stressed/ enjoy it more than others. I just don’t think there’s a gender divide for who those are.
“Rape culture does exist. It’s somewhere between man-hate and a tautology. Rape is bad, talking about it in terms of “rape culture” is worse. “Teach men not to rape” will do nothing but exclude non-rapists from interactions with women. Increase women’s interactions with rapists, increase rape. I want less rapes, not more.”
Once again you show you don’t know what you are talking about. 1) how the fuck is calling it rape culture worse? When we live in a society where it is acceptable to say that because someone is wearing revealing clothes, or drinking underage, or ‘leading a man on’, its okay that they were raped, or it wasnt really rape and that men can’t be raped because they should be glad they are getting any sex, we are indeed living in a rape culture. People were whining about how the boys in (forget spelling. Steubenville?) rape case had their futures ruined because people know that they *raped somebody* we live in a rape culture. Calling it a rape culture is just helping name it, not making it worse.
2) we teach men not to rape. We teach kids not to hit or steal when they are growing up. We teach parents not to shake their babies. We tell drivers not to drink and drive. These aren’t to discourage people for having kids, or driving, it’s just because some things must be taught.
“The MRM is fighting for the same things “real” feminists are”
No. The mrm has suggested single moms be put in whorehouses to repay their debts. They have suggested that female babies have their voice boxes removed. They have suggested ::cough warren Farrell cough:: that rape is ‘exciting’ that incest shouldn’t be taboo, that it is fraud if a woman goes on a date with a man and does not have sex with him. There is so much more n this site pointing out the hateful things they say. If they were not so hateful, there would not be a site like this that can update so often, pointing out so many hateful things they say, for such a small, recent movement. The mrm is hateful. Get used to it, and get the fuck out.
Fade: Yeah, when I have been out with the kids I have been providing childcare for (none of them my own), the reactions have been, across the board, favorable. Not once (in thousands of hours) have I been accosted by the police. I’ve had women ask me about the baby; when they find out it’s not mine they tended to get even kinder to me.
I’ve been hit on while caring for kids. I’ve had people tell me what a fantastic father I will be. I’ve been called some variation on, “noble” more than once.
Women who do childcare, “oh, that’s to be expected”.
Fade — yeah I realize that was you. Just trying to summarize what little I could find, and note that “is it because firearms are messy?” was moot.
“Teach men not to rape” means focusing on patriarchal male socialization and ensuring that the worst of it doesn’t affect men and boys. Because most rapists are male thanks to the patriarchy. It’s also a response to the idea “Teach women to not get raped.”
And your assertion how it will exclude non-rapists from interactions with women is demonstrably false, sorry. It makes me want to laugh, and that’s no exaggeration.
Huh, neither the UK nor Australia have seen a decrease in gun related suicides.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom — solid UK data
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/robert-farago/the-truth-about-australias-gun-ban-and-spree-killing/ — pro-gun US source re: Australian rates
I like how “rape culture” will make more rapist (which we see Warrell talking about; but 20 years on this isn’t happening; and men and women are still having sexytimes with each other; and flirting, and dating, and being friends, and all)>
Also, feminism has been gaining more and more momentum over time. Awareness of the concept of rape culture has also gained prevalence.
And now, guess what? Rape has declined by at least 64% percent since 1995.
I don’t see more rape – do you?
And now my partners and I are going to a play. Have fun with all the neutral topics. Tamen, if you show up, don’t worry, I’m not ignoring you. I have better things to do for a while.
Argenti – cloves. You can’t be in the US, then, can you? Aussie or UK? Because they are illegal here now. (Or you could have figured out a way to get them). Also, good and obvious point about not knowing reasons behind completed suicides.
Thanks all for doing the interesting research on suicide stuff.
Derailing, but the person I posted about before when I delurked, an ex sending me harassing, creepy emails for no reason, is now sending even creepier things. I feel like I can’t tell him to leave me alone forever, because he is definitely trying to be obnoxious and to intimidate me on purpose. Saying anything will likely just egg him on….But if I don’t say anything, I feel like I can’t then rightfully say, well you knew I did not want this and stepped on my boundaries anyway…but then he’ll know I am upset and be able to upset me further. And I never want to block emails because they’re evidence if anything ever happens.
Ok, it looks like method choice, in strict terms among completed suicides is highly variable by location. In other words, men use guns more is US specific to a silly degree. Hanging is just more popular in the UK, India favors hanging, drowning, poison and self-immolation (omgs bride burning, go google, I’ll spare you)
@Argenti – that makes sense; where did you find info on how guns in US is super specific. That’s important. Especially when I have to see that 5 year olds are shooting 2 year olds in our country.
Seriously, don’t look up sati or bride burnings, you’ll never stop crying.
bahumbugi — idk where the fuck you are, but they’re legal in CT (and in PA, at least they were a year ago). Brit…I wish, no one would claim I’m eating oatmeal that needs more water (it’s called porridge people!), all the BBC!, universal healthcare, and never again having this happen:
“Watch out for the turn about”
…
“Why didn’t you warn me about the traffic circle!”
Citation on Indian suicide methods — http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19486437
Re: your ex — you’re in the states then? You need to explicitly tell him to stop to have a harassment claim when he doesn’t. Are you using gmail? Because you can set it up to send all messages from a specific address to their own folder and mark them as read in the process — you’d have them, but never have to see them.
@Argenti
I did a tiny bit more of reserach on suicide. Evidently women are less likely to use methods that disfigure the face or head.
Ok, not quite only the US, but mostly. And here — http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/9/07-043489/en/
I’m charting some of the data, I’ll have a graph in just a moment.
Just saw the numbers on suicide. First time through I thought it was about the rape definition thing and ignored it.
You did a lot of really pointless math.
Ratio of men:women committing suicide per 100,000 is 4:1
Ratio of Whites to blacks is about 2.5:1
Ratio of whites to native Americans is about 1:1
Men are by far the most likely to off themselves.
Whites and Native Americans are much more likely to off themselves.
If this is a racial issue, it’s a downside of being white.
Sorry, but this is what your numbers say. And you did some really pointless math.
“No one is denying its a real issue. Just that its a problem that affects only men, because it is not.”
Well there are 5-6 posts that try to trivialize the issue by asserting women’s attempts are more important. There are 3-4 posts claiming it’s a race, not a gender issue. If you wanted me to believe that this wasn’t a gendered issues, this would have been the first reply, not backpedaling after I’ve made my case.
“Examples please. Also, tactics matter.”
Well there is me. I think that I’m a rather good example of MRM and equality feminists advocating for very similar things. Stuff like equality. I’m not arguing that women should be barefoot pregnant and chained to the stove. I’m arguing that we can’t have equality between men and women if we only ever talk about women. There is another side to that equation MEN.
Tactics do matter. There are idiots and bigots on both sides. I’ll agree to ignore your crazies if you agree to ignore the male crazies (and if you can actually point out a MRA crazy that’s not strawman or quote mining I will make a post denouncing them) I don’t want to be associated with people advocating murdering single mothers just like you don’t want to be associated with people advocating throwing toddlers through 5th story windows. Note, they must self label as MRA. Finding a crazy and labeling them MRA doesn’t count.
For more of my thoughts on “Rape Culture” read my blog. I’ve done 4 posts and am not going to retype them here. “Rape Culture” “Rape Culture part 2” “Man-hating Rape Culture” “Man-hatting Rape Culture part 2”
Thank you for mentioning your blog, because now I know you are the kind of dickhead who thinks things like this
Also, I don’t think female teachers are sexually harrassing male teachers or doing things to keep them out of their field. Its not our fault men want the higher paying jobs that are biased in favor of them.
I did look at your article on “Man hating rape culture” but it was so full of shit I”m having a hard time pointing out all the ways it’s full of shit