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MRAs to women: You make us hate you! (Also, don’t call JohnTheOther a neckbeard. He’s clean-shaven!)

Racists – victim blamers extraordinaire — like to pretend that their racism isn’t their fault, that they’ve been driven to their racism by the bad behavior of some members of the group they’re bigoted against. Do a search for the phrase “I don’t hate blacks, but” and you will find thousands of examples of this “logic” at its crudest. “I don’t think blacks are ignorant just the NIGGERS,” one YouTube commenter writes, encapsulating the racist “logic” in a phrase.

Misogynists are fond of making similar “arguments” about women. As one commenter on the Scott Adams blog puts it:

I don’t hate women, but I have a pretty low opinion of women overall. I think they have poor priorities, they have poor analytical skills, they tend to be disorganized, they tend to be impulsive, and they think the world revolves around their feelings. I don’t think all women are like that, but it’s the impression I have of the gender in general, and I don’t like those traits.

Naturally, variations of this general argument (such as it is) abound in the “manosphere.” “Misogynists are not born they are made,” writes MRA/MGTOW elder and proud misogynist ZenPriest in an oft-cited rant titled “Hate Bounces.”

“Once, a long time ago when the world was young, I loved women with all my heart and soul,”ZenPriest (also known as Zed) writes. But then along came feminism, which ruined women so thoroughly that poor ZenPriest found himself more or less forced to become a woman-hater:

I began to see women as vicious creatures whose only agenda when it came to me, or any man, was to see how much they could get from the man – then when he had nothing left to give because they had taken it all, toss him out with yesterday’s garbage. In short – as nothing but users. …

I took to avoiding women, particularly groups of them, because I could never sit quietly and put up with the bashing and would always challenge it, which ended me up in a lot of fights and added greatly the count of times that I got called “misogynist.”

Gosh, why would anyone who “see[s] women as vicious creatures” get called a misogynist?

[A]fter 3 decades of listening to it, and hating it, and trying to keep the animosity which had been building in me over it … I caved in and began to really hate women. …

I will not allow most women in my house unless I have known her a long time and she is old enough to have escaped being infected with the plague of man hating or is escorted by someone I trust, nor will I enter theirs except on the same conditions. If I pass a woman stranded on the road, I will not stop to help her because it is as likely as not that she will be afraid of me.  …

I changed from a man who loved women and thought they were just about the greatest thing in the world, to a man who can’t stand them, or anything about them.

And of course it is all the fault of women and their alleged incessant man-hatery:

Man bashing and man hating harms women, because it makes men hate them back – eventually. A puppy returns love for love, but if you beat it will eventually turn mean and will one day turn on you when you raise your fist or your stick (or the club of words) to hit it. Men are no different.

As this last bit makes clear, this “she made me do it” logic is the very same logic used by abusers to justify their abuse.

Now our old friend JohnTheOther has offered a similar blame-the-ladies explanation as to why he’s developed what he calls an “indifference to female opinion.” In his telling, the straw that broke the camel’s back was some unnamed feminist who had the temerity to use the word “neckbeard” in an internet posting.

The culture of easy, casual insult by women against average men, creeps, neckbeards, mother’s-basement-dweller and so on, has a effect which might not be recognized by women. Guys generally don’t need to be told they’re held in contempt as a group, our wider culture makes this sparklingly clear. However, individual instances of circumstantial ad-hom have the very real effect of making men not care about women’s opinions.

Yeah, that’s why these guys don’t give a shit about what women say.

Naturally, Mr. TheOther feels the need to tell us that 1) he doesn’t have a neckbeard and 2) he has a (presumably human) girlfriend.

Am I a neck-beard? No, I’m clean shaven, Im not an online gamer, I have a girlfriend, a career, I dress well et-cetera. But whenever I see some casual, throw away comment like creeper, neck-beard or other minor belittling insult used to describe average men, it cements my not giving a shit about the opinions of women.

After being criticized for his blatant misogyny by a commenter in the Men’s Rights subreddit (virtually the only MRA site online where misogyny is ever called out), Mr. TheOther altered that final bit to read “it cements my not giving a shit about the opinions offered.” He evidently thinks that changing the wording of this one sentence, and complaining about “quote-mining” will convince readers that the misogynistic argument set forth in detail in the rest of the post somehow isn’t misogyny. (And, on the Men’s Rights subreddit, that ploy seems to have worked.)

Naturally, like so many misogynists, Mr. TheOther insists he’s really not a woman-hater:

I don’t hate women, I don’t believe in any “back to the kitchen” nonsense, or any other female-targeted belittlement. What I’m talking about is my personal attitude towards women’s opinions, their utterances, their writing, their thoughts, their contribution to society. If you are a woman reading this, that means your thoughts, ideas, speech, writing and so on.

Well, that clears it up. You don’t hate women; you just don’t give a shit what women think or say or do. Obviously there’s no bigotry in that!

Utterly dismissing “female opinion” because some woman called you a neckbeard: Men’s Rights activism at its finest!

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Shiraz
Shiraz
10 years ago

“@Shiraz
You might not think of babies during sex, but the only reason you want sex is due to a reproductive drive.

Oh, if you need a drink be sure to not have sex with anyone you deem worthy if either of you are drunk or high. That’ll be added to the CDC rape stat of 1 in 5. And whatever you do stay away from well lit college classrooms surrounded by people at desks. That seems to be a hotbed of rape activity, a veritable culture.”

Oh boy, do I have some questions….
Um, dude, since you addressed me up there, are you saying the presence of alcohol makes rape happen? Like, without question? That’s……stupid. Was that a scare tactic? Or maybe I deserve to be assaulted because I sipped some wine earlier? I don’t recognize the “well-lit classroom” reference. Errrrr, I just can’t tell what you were going for, so yeah…..you’ll have to try harder next time.
I don’t know what kind of point your trying to make when you say that sexuality is all about reproduction — even when it’s not. Does that mean people who say they have sex strictly for pleasure are lying? Or do you actually believe people have to make a baby every time they engage in the act? Maybe you think fun sex should be outlawed? What’s your point? We all know sex produces babies……that doesn’t make the physical and emotional components non-existent. People aren’t mindless roaches without consciousness. There are plenty of good reasons for having sex that don’t involve babies. Why I’m I explaining this to an alleged adult, for god’s sake?
Oh hey, I think I’m going to have another glass of wine.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Huh. I always knew that Slavey hated gay people, but this is the first time that he seems to be denying that they exist (since the sex that they want to have cannot in most cases result in reproduction).

Also in the booze scenario I think he’s trying to scaremonger people into thinking that every single case of sex involving booze is going to be prosecuted as rape even if nobody involved calls it rape, or makes a police report. How the police would even know that the sex in question had occurred is just one of those little details that he likes to ignore when they don’t fit neatly into his rants.

indifferentsky
10 years ago

Wait… how come we’re giving NWO a less on the CDC stats again? I already gave him a heads up that he was wrong.

🙁

My feelings are hurt, NWO, you did NOT listen to me.
Argenti posted the actual actual now tho, so…no more silly talk ok?

indifferentsky
10 years ago

*lesson

That was weird.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Shiraz — you’re new to the Owlyverse huh? Let me attempt to explain — first, he has a serious thing against any and all rape statistics, if they come from government sources (including the CDC) he will mock them, and you (or me, as the case is currently).

Re: drinking + sex = rape: See this comment.

Re: well lit classrooms — he refuses to believe that college students could have a slightly higher than average risk of rape, because classrooms are well lit. He’s also a master of twisting statistics, managing to arrive at 115%. (And odds are, he’s going to accuse me “kafka trapping” again for saying that)

“Maybe you think fun sex should be outlawed?” — I think so? He was saying recently that only fundamental Christian societies are proper, or good for society, or some shit like that.

“Why I’m I explaining this to an alleged adult, for god’s sake?” — because duty calls.

And NWO — yes, I am better than you at math, I tended to set the curve in math classes, when I wasn’t sitting in the hallway for being disruptive because I was well past done and bored. Really, I’d have preferred to be average at it, but my brain works in numbers. There are going to be people out there better than you at shit, you can be bitter about it, or learn something. Me, I pick the latter. (Dude, I creeped people out with my love of matrix math, going around saying I knew algebra had too many characters and there had to be a way to do basic math without all those plus and equal signs.)

Creep…crepe…do those exist without sour cream? I hate sour cream (mostly because it hates me, all that lactose = no!)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

indifferentsky — see the first link in my last comment, he mocks the CDC as it’s government data. (Still waiting to hear if that’s only in rape cases, or if he questions the TB rate as well)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

All crepes should be served with either some sort of fruit or nutella. Yes, that if an official Perfect Feminist Proclamation, on account of how I don’t like savory crepes.

Jake Hamby (@jhamby)
10 years ago

Heather N’s new blog mocking RadFemHub (which is off to an excellent start, BTW) has led me to the realization that if NWOSlave didn’t exist, the radfems would surely have had to invent him.

Then again, the radfems seem to think that all men share nwoslave’s belief system already. Someone should set up a dating site to pair the heterosexual radfems off with the MRAs, and then they can be happy hating and despising each other, together. You’d have to do it under completely false pretenses, though. Like you could have two sites, one for the MRAs that makes it look like the women are all submissive, subservient self-loathing types, and the site for the radfems making it look like the men are all submissive, subservient self-loathing types. Maybe you could do some automated filtering of the profiles to screen out the misogyny of the mras and the misandry of the radfems. By the time they realize they’ve been tricked, maybe they’ll meet their mirror image true love.

“Hey,” says the radfem, “this asshole isn’t like my stereotype of all men as evil. He’s an angry, bitter, entitled asshole just like I am, only with a neckbeard (and different genitals).” And vice versa for the MRA. They could still keep their hateful stereotypes of the opposite gender, since they’re well skilled at carving out exceptions to their otherwise unbreakable sexual (and other) stereotypes for “the good ones.”

Jake Hamby (@jhamby)
10 years ago

Argenti, you forgot to mention that in the Owlyverse, all homosexual/ bisexual/ trans* people are willfully being perverts because the Communist education system told them that gay is superior to straight.

indifferentsky
10 years ago

@ AA yes! Saw that, that’s why I was thinking NWO will finally listen and stop spreading misinformation.

heh.

indifferentsky
10 years ago

I don’t get NWO’s post on “countries infected with feminism”
and birth rate.

I think it’s part- I’m not feeling well, because I should be able to glean what point he is trying to make even if I disagree… and part, NWO not making sense.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

If we’re going to link feminism to birth rate then by his logic the most feminist country in the world would be Japan. Um…

Magpie
10 years ago

Nobody has ever gleaned NWO’s point 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Jake Hamby — that does about round out his talking points doesn’t it?

indifferenysky — Argenti, please, I have a thing against the alcoholic’s anonymous associations of AA. Thanks! I think his point about “infected with feminism” is that without birth control women would have more babies, which is true, but as noted previously, that’d also mean more babies with less resources, more starving, etc. Less babies means more resources per child, so idfk why NWO has a problem with this (actually, I do, it’s the whole race thing).

Hershele Ostropoler
10 years ago

slavey:

the only reason you want sex is due to a reproductive drive.

Not an expert, but that’s … not actually wholly incorrect, it seems to me. Not any individual’s conscious desire to reproduce, to be sure, but in an evolutionary sense it’s a relatively (considering the source) reasonable approximation of how I understand the process to work.

Fembot:

Mary Wollstonecraft published A Vindication of the Rights of Woman in 1792, so any woman untainted by feminism would be over 200 years old.

Taming of the Shrew, which appears to presuppose the existance of what we would now call feminism, was written no later than 1591; Measure for Measure, taking a dim view of sexual harassment, was written around 1604.

katz
10 years ago

Shall we tell him about Lysistrata?

PsychoDan
PsychoDan
10 years ago

Re: well lit classrooms — he refuses to believe that college students could have a slightly higher than average risk of rape, because classrooms are well lit. He’s also a master of twisting statistics, managing to arrive at 115%. (And odds are, he’s going to accuse me “kafka trapping” again for saying that)

What’s up with that anyway? Has he just decided “kafka trapping” means “being mean to nwo” or something? The origins of the phrase seem a bit sketchy to me to begin with, but the basic concept seems to be using denial of an accusation as proof that the accusation is true, which doesn’t even slightly resemble anything I’ve seen nwo call a “kafka trap”.

jumbofisch
jumbofisch
10 years ago

@Jake Hambly
I don’t even understand why you posted that weird fanfic of mras and radfem’s hooking up.

Not all radfem’s hate men anyway, many don’t trust them for various reasons. Mras and radfems are not polar opposites.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

PsychoDan — no clue on his thing about colleges, he seems to be accusing me of kafka trapping because I keep insisting his math is made of rubbish — except I also keep proving that his math is, in fact, made of rubbish. (Unlike his “if I say it it must be true” approach to BRAINFAX!)

I haven’t even been particularly mean to him…his math, sure, but it’s not like I ascribed that to some fundamental character flaw or something — he’s bad at math, so the fuck what?

Sorka
Sorka
10 years ago

Also, there would be no homosexuality, bisexuality or sexual behaviors that involve non-genital-sex because there would be no reason for it. Masturbation would literally not exist.

And yet……

Sexual pleasure is for bonding, stress relief, boredom relief, and it can be with the aim of reproduction (although those of us who are barely fertile or infertile can attest that we still like sexual pleasure even though pregnancy is probably not going to be on the radar).

Sure! And this goes for many other animals as well (it’s not like masturbation and bisexual behaviour doesn’t exist in other mammals, for instance)

Sorka
Sorka
10 years ago

@NWO

So today she prattles on about how women are so much more empathetic, sympathetic, cooperative, ect, ect, ect.

Err, you do realize that most people on this board probably think it’s *sexist* to describe “all” women as “more empathetic, sympathetic” etc?

I recommend that you read the book “The Myth of Mars and Venus” by Deborah Cameron (well written, well researched, incredibly funny) for an introduction as to WHY this might be.

Of course, I realize that you’re just going to ignore this comment and carry on trolling his messageboard with your inane made-up facts of what “feminists” and “all women” think about women and men.
.

PsychoDan
PsychoDan
10 years ago

I haven’t even been particularly mean to him…his math, sure, but it’s not like I ascribed that to some fundamental character flaw or something — he’s bad at math, so the fuck what?

True, I didn’t mean to imply that you’ve actually been mean to him. But I’m sure in his warped mind you have, and that seems to be as far as his definition of the phrase has gotten.

I guess maybe it would be more accurate to say that he seems to think “kafka trapping” means “contradicting anything he ever says, in any way”.

Kyrie
Kyrie
10 years ago

“Not an expert, but that’s … not actually wholly incorrect, it seems to me. Not any individual’s conscious desire to reproduce, to be sure, but in an evolutionary sense it’s a relatively (considering the source) reasonable approximation of how I understand the process to work.”

Unless someone has proof, I disagree. I am a little scared of getting pregnant each time I have PIV sex. I don’t believe I have an unconscious desire of making babies; making some people do though? I believe that we reproduce the behaviors that we see in the generation above, I believe that evolution made mating pleasurable enough in itself and humans, as a group, horny enough that they would mate enough to ensure the survival of the specie. Add to that a conscious desire to reproduce (since we figured out how it works) and i don’t see the need (or the proof) for an unconscious desire.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Actually, given that I’m often horniest during the period when I’m statistically least likely to get pregnant, I really doubt that desire to reproduce is driving my interest in sex. If anything the desire not to reproduce is driving me on a subconscious level. I’m expecting that as soon as I know for sure that I’m no longer capable of reproducing my libido will amp up accordingly,

ShadetheDruid
10 years ago

I find it interesting that the whole “sex for pleasure” thing seems to correlate with higher intelligence in animals (humans, bonobos, dolphins etc). I’m sure someone’s done some research on this by now.

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