Categories
a woman is always to blame antifeminism creepy empathy deficit entitled babies imaginary oppression lazy women eating bon bons mansplaining men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny patriarchy patronizing as heck reactionary bullshit red pill YouTube

Trouble! Internet mashup king Pogo reveals himself to be a misogynistic douchenozzle [UPDATED with links to archived versions of his posts]

I'm outta here.
I’m outta here.

[UPDATE 2: Pogo now says his misogynistic posts were an “experiment.” For my take on this, see here.]

[UPDATE: Pogo has taken down several of the blog posts mentioned in this post. I have replaced the links to the vanished posts with links to archived versions.]

So you know that dude Pogo, who makes all those amazingly perky-yet-somehow-also-ethereal music/video mashups using snippets of old Disney movies and the like?

Turns out he’s a bit of a misogynistic dickbag.

Yep. On his Pogomix blog, Nick Bertke (his real name) has been posting a bunch of tiresome and achingly unoriginal rants about feminism and the alleged privileges of women that might as well have been cut and pasted from the Men’s Rights subreddit or A Voice for Men.

In “Why We Should Envy Women” he argues that “[d]espite what all these feminists talk about, women actually have things pretty damn good. Better than men, I would say.”

He presents a little list of ways he thinks women have it better than men; it’s an assortment of MRA clichés, a sort of mashup (yep) of Warren Farrell and Girl Writes What, as filtered through a million crappy blogs.

– You are naturally endowed with a more valuable, sought after and artistically favorable body.
– At the bat of an eye, you can be excused from accountability regardless of the magnitude of your actions.
– At 18, you lose the protective status of the child but retain the protective status of the female. …
– Society excuses you from needing to work and says all you need is a hard working and generous man. …
– You are granted the rights of a democracy without the burdens of military service.

The creepiest item on the list is undoubtedly this one:

– You can give the opposite sex a thrashing when the person deserves it.

That’s right: the guy who created the gorgeous “Alice” and the charmingly catchy “Upular” envies women’s alleged ability to beat up their boyfriends without consequence, apparently wishing he could do the same to women when they “deserve it.”

Seemingly channeling the “red pill wisdom” of the internet’s self-proclaimed masters of “Game,” Bertke goes on to explain that women are basically overgrown children needing the “discipline” of a firm father figure.

I’ve always found that the more I treat a woman like a child, the stronger the relationship, the better the sex and the more often it happens. Discipline, reprimand and complete indifference. I think the feminine woman craves the attributes of a firm father in the man she enters a relationship with. The more I realize it, the more I see modern feminism in a different light – it could well be little more than the collective feminine cry for drama and childlike retaliation.

Sigh. He seems to have turned this rant, or portions of it, into a video. (I could only make it through about 30 seconds before my annoyance got the better of me and I turned it off.) [UPDATE: He’s deleted the video.]

In “5 Things I’ve Learned About The Real World,” Bertke urges his readers to, yep, “take the red pill for a minute,” and offers more, er, insights into women’s alleged desire for “fatherly order.”

A lot of women you meet, feminists in particular, will preach that you are the source of their failures and womanly strife. This won’t stop them from playing powerless, and they’ll insist that you roll up your sleeves and rescue them from their mysterious bonds. The collective female cry for fatherly order requires that you as a man are expected to make the world spin.

As you may have noticed, Bertke’s prose is not quite as elegant as his songs. He can’t even keep his metaphors straight.

In “Where Feminism Goes Wrong,” he informs us that “inequality is a door that swings both ways but feminism by definition and in practice treats it as a one way street.” (Here’s an archived copy of the post in case he takes it down too.)

Yep. Inequality is somehow both a door and a street.

He goes on to declare that:

Feminism is taken prisoner by too many women and re-branded as a self entitling social status posing as a humanitarian ideology. There’s really only two possible explanations for why feminism has become a bait and switch: 1. Feminism is revealing its self to be a camouflaged push for gender supremacy, or 2. Feminists just aren’t doing a very good job of communicating their true cause.

There’s actually a third explanation, more convincing than the first two, which is that Nick Bertke has no fucking clue what he’s talking about.

Misogynistic outbursts are apparently not a new thing for Bertke. Last spring, after erratic behavior on his part led some of his fans to worry that he might be undergoing some sort of breakdown, one Redditor reported that “some fans and friends close to Nick that have stated that he’s done something similar in the past, going on a rude, sometimes misogynistic rant and basically acting like a 12 year old … .”

It’s always disappointing to find out that someone whose work you enjoy and admire is a shitty person. Alas, he’s far from the first talented musician to turn out to be a woman-hating asshole.

Bertke, dude, stick to sampling other people’s words. Your own words are terrible.

H/T —   on Twitter, who alerted me to Pogo’s asshattery.

EDIT: Reworded a couple of things.

295 replies on “Trouble! Internet mashup king Pogo reveals himself to be a misogynistic douchenozzle [UPDATED with links to archived versions of his posts]”

I like this comment becuase it’s condescending but still informative. I still can’t figure out how to quote bits of text so bear with me.

Yes, the ‘i’m not an X, but’ cliche happened, but doesn’t invalidate my claim, as you can read in my second post.

You quote me saying rape is good, not rape is nonsense. I don’t remember typing that. Sorry if I did.

When I said I have yet to meet a sexist, I mean, Obviously I have online, in their thousands. But in person, not so much. People are not vocal about it. Some older men I’ve spoken to say some things that are sexist, like women’s role in business and work but it’s a developing world over here, catching up.

Just because you haven’t seen women’s fitness magazines doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I can think of three and I don’t even subscribe to them.

Thanks for the links, I’ll be reading them soon, but let me assure you that there are just as many google results debunking the claims. It’s hard for an individual to google things in an unbiased fashion, it feels almost offensive to search for the opposite of your agenda, but sometimes it’s important. I often like to type what I think, and follow it with the word ‘myth’ or ‘debunk’

The pinnochio lie is not a lie. You can easily find examples of what I said. They are hardly blocked from view. If that type isn’t welcome here then, well, Irrelevant to me since I don’t frequent here and I’m speaking more generally than a single website.

There are numerous examples of men being falsely imprisoned, sometimes for years, others committing suicide and others having their entire careers ruined from false accusations of women who, say, claim rape, and then later, after the suicide, admit they only held hands. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, you might consider checking up on it first, rather than just skipping – dismissing (remember when I mentioned that word?)

‘I’m not sexist’ – Not a lie, see second post

Tone police thing, well, not sure how to respond to that but just being critical of the way something is handled shouldn’t be mocked. To any objective mind they can see in almost anything, that the thing is flawed. And in this case, the way people do feminism is often flawed. That’s just how life is. Sometimes people do things wrong, and others point it out.
Doesn’t make me sexist.

I don’t know this dead feminist is, but I can assure you there are many more. I know a few youtubers who – regardless of whether I agree with them or not – have opinions that lead to death threats and letters being sent to their homes, needing police protection as a response. Again if you don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s not hidden. Go check.

‘because they’re sexist duh’ – not very useful but ok. Why are they?

‘from other men’ – Ok he learnt it from other men. Why? How can it be stopped? Hint – Understanding.

‘it never ever works’ – I’m wondering how true this is. maybe you as a collective tried to some degree at some point in time, but gave up out of exasperation, and future examples you jump to anger and frustration. Again, understandable, but the wrong thing to do.

Also, a whole bunch may do what I suggested, but then others will just jump right into anger and frustration, and drown out the reasonable people. A problem indeed, I don’t have a solution.

However, things tend to go viral a lot these days. Hopefully an actual reasonable argument to him would go viral and he would see it, see his shameful ways and reply decently. I dunno, maybe I have too much faith in humanity?

And I don’t think feminists are evil, I just think some are. In the same way I think some of every group of activists can be.

Thanks for the links, I’ll be reading them soon, but let me assure you that there are just as many google results debunking the claims.

The pinnochio lie is not a lie. You can easily find examples of what I said. They are hardly blocked from view. If that type isn’t welcome here then, well, Irrelevant to me since I don’t frequent here and I’m speaking more generally than a single website.

There are numerous examples of men being falsely imprisoned, sometimes for years, others committing suicide and others having their entire careers ruined from false accusations of women who, say, claim rape, and then later, after the suicide, admit they only held hands. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, you might consider checking up on it first, rather than just skipping – dismissing (remember when I mentioned that word?)

I don’t know this dead feminist is, but I can assure you there are many more. I know a few youtubers who – regardless of whether I agree with them or not – have opinions that lead to death threats and letters being sent to their homes, needing police protection as a response. Again if you don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s not hidden. Go check.

Credible sources or GTFO. Youtubers are not credible sources. Peer-reviewed studies are. Cohort studies are. Literature reviews are.

Don’t come in here with uncited opinions and then tell other people off for being unreasonable.

Why do I need credible sources for an opinion?

I am honestly about to go to dinner – with GIRLS as well as boys. Woah! so I can’t right now, but if it’s really too difficult for you to just, check… I guess I could do the googling for you. I don’t see why you demand such a thing when you said yourself you have free time, and I guess you probably have some kind of broadband, right?

Also, me stating unreasonable people is not remotely linked to me not citing my thoughts. I don’t like to cite thoughts because people rarely read them and its a waste of my time.
Those who are interested will surely do as I suggested and check for themselves. If you’re not that into it and just want to be angry at me then, well, that’s your prerogative but I really gotta go dinner.

I’m the plus one of my girlfriend, by the way, not the other way round.

When I said I have yet to meet a sexist, I mean, Obviously I have online, in their thousands. But in person, not so much. People are not vocal about it. Some older men I’ve spoken to say some things that are sexist, like women’s role in business and work but it’s a developing world over here, catching up.

Just because you haven’t seen women’s fitness magazines doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I can think of three and I don’t even subscribe to them.

Well, that was quite the logical U-turn. From “I haven’t seen X in the wild so it doesn’t exist” to “Just because you haven’t seen X doesn’t mean they don’t exist” in one paragraph.

Guess what? Just because you haven’t seen a sexist in person doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Most people are smart enough not to say racist, misogynist things in a business setting, but behind closed doors with friends, it’s a different story. The anonymity of te internet just emboldens them to speak their minds more freely. I have former facebook “friends” who seemed perfectly nice in real life, but didn’t think twice about posting gross, offensive memes about women on their wall. That sexism was there all along, just hidden under a veneer of social respectability.

@EJ – You are awesome. That is all.

Why do I need credible sources for an opinion?

Because if your opinion is not based on credible sources then you should be ashamed of holding that opinion.

Here’s an opinion: I am of the opinion that Uruguay doesn’t exist. I’ve never been there, I’ve never met an Uruguayan, I’ve never seen pictures of downtown Montevideo, and I’ve never eaten Uruguayan cuisine. Sure, I’ve met people who will tell me about how they went to Uruguay; but then I’ve also met people who will tell me about how their cat is the reincarnation of Smaug, so I take that with a pinch of salt.

On the other hand, I am not going to go around Necro-ing threads in order to tell people this opinion, because it is a stupid opinion and spouting it will not measurably improve the overall happiness of the human race.

Less facetiously: This website is not called “Come and spout your opinions.” Such a website exists, it’s called State. This is not State. This is WHTM. Here we talk about misogynists and how absurd their antics are. You are the current topic of conversation, because you are a misogynist and your antics are absurd.

Also, you didn’t say “it is my opinion that rape culture does not exist.” You said “rape culture… if it exists (which it does not.” That’s not the statement of an opinion. That’s an assertion of facts.

You’re playing among grownups here. Grownups do not make assertions unless they have credible sources to back them up. If you make assertions and then, when called on them, claim that they’re just opinions then you’re asking us to treat you like a child.

I am honestly about to go to dinner – with GIRLS as well as boys. Woah! so I can’t right now, but if it’s really too difficult for you to just, check… I guess I could do the googling for you. I don’t see why you demand such a thing when you said yourself you have free time, and I guess you probably have some kind of broadband, right?

If you make a claim and you expect to be taken seriously, the onus is on you to support it. Claims require evidence, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you simply say “I believe X, and you should google it and see if you can find sources to support X” then please be aware that you come out looking as credible as the people who tell us that spreading vinegar on their back porch helps to prevent chemtrails. Or the people who believe that Obama is planning FEMA concentration camps. Or the people who claim that Uruguay exists.

Have a good dinner. Think over whether you want to be treated as a grownup. If you do, come back with credible sources to back up your assertions. If not, think hard about what value you hope to add to the overall sum of human happiness by continuing to tell us your opinions.

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants:

One day, I hope to be as awesome as you are.

(I was really, really tempted to reply to you with a curt “Be quiet, men are talking.” It’s a joke which would have gotten a joke among my real-life friends but I’m unsure of the reception here so I’ll just mention it and won’t actually make it.)

@Omni: If you somehow escaped the 9th grade without learning that when you make assertions the onus is on you to provide supporting evidence, then consider this your continuing education moment for the day.

Do yourself a favor, stick your pseudo-flounce.

omni sez:

Why do I need credible sources for an opinion?

Ya know even very ignorant people are usually at least smart enough to pretend they have a source for their claims apart from their own imagination. Congratulations on lowering the bar.

I don’t know this dead feminist is, but I can assure you there are many more. I know a few youtubers who – regardless of whether I agree with them or not – have opinions that lead to death threats and letters being sent to their homes, needing police protection as a response. Again if you don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s not hidden. Go check.

Gonna guess that one of these YouToob Feminists is Anita Sarkeesian. How the fuck is criticising female representation in video games “extremism”? You have a tone as if these YouToob Feminists are deserving of death threats and harassment because of their views – fuck you. Chances are their views are NOT extreme in any way, according to an actual reasonable person, the problem is the groups of internet assholes who get butthurt over any woman who doesn’t fit their ideal of how a woman should behave i.e. submissive and silent, only existing to stroke their breathtakingly fragile egos. Seriously, many of these online misogynists are WAY more sensitive than you perceive the average feminist to be.

Reasons to cite sources for the facts you used to form your opinions:

1. It’s polite, when coming into someone else’s space.

2. Those you are having discourse with need to access and assess the sources you used to form your opinion in order to either agree or disagree.

3. When coming into someone else’s space with a dissenting opinion, especially a space where trolls are rampant, you need to assert your own credibility.

4. Your interpretation of the content of your sources might not be the only interpretation.

I know a few youtubers who – regardless of whether I agree with them or not – have opinions that lead to death threats and letters being sent to their homes, needing police protection as a response

Really? So. . . people responding with death threats means those people were somehow justified in making those death threats because the feminist(s) must have said something really offensive to provoke that kind of a response? That’s really your argument??? I guess Martin Luther King Jr. must have said some really offensive things about racial equality by your logic. . .

I’m the plus one of my girlfriend, by the way, not the other way round.

lol . . . what is this supposed to prove?

My guess it’s meant to be like “I can’t be sexist, I allowed a woman to ask me out!”.
It doesn’t prove diddly.

He allows his girlfriend to have friends, and even allows her to leave the house to visit them as long as he’s invited to go with! See, he’s not a dangerous extremist like us but still manages to not be a sexist.

@EJ – Oh, fie, you make me blush, good sirrah. But seriously, thank you for all your informative, witty, and whack-a-troll posts. I wish I could send you fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies (or other treat of your choice) through the intertubes.

Those who are interested will surely do as I suggested and check for themselves. If you’re not that into it and just want to be angry at me then, well, that’s your prerogative.

“Do my homework for me in debunking my assertion that feminists are irrational and angry, and if you’re not interested in wasting half an hour of your life on tediously refuting my Gish gallop, well, then you’re just another irrational angry feminist.”

Thanks for putting us in a lose-lose situation, but we’ll pass.

There are numerous examples of men being falsely imprisoned, sometimes for years, others committing suicide and others having their entire careers ruined from false accusations of women who, say, claim rape, and then later, after the suicide, admit they only held hands.

Numerous? How numerous? One is numerous. Is this an actual epidemic, or are you latching on to a few rare examples, and pretending that they’re as big of a problem as the thousands of rapes that
a) go unreported
b) aren’t believed when reported
c) have the charges dropped under enormous pressure from family/friends/the police/the community not to “ruin the life” of the accused, coupled with lack of will on the victim’s part to endure the trauma of reliving the crime at trial
d) make it to trial but no conviction, thanks to the perpetrator’s connections, an archaic system of cross-examination that thinks the victim’s dress, conduct, sex life, and prior relationship to the perpetrator have any bearing on the guilt of the accused, and murky definitions of consent (deliberately made even more murky by the very people who think false rape accusations are a huge problem for men).

Men don’t get tossed into jail merely on a women’s say so. If anything, more perpetrators go free because the testimony of “just a woman” isn’t enough to convict. Innocent-til-proven-guilty is one of the bedrock principles of the American justice system. That doesn’t get magically tossed out the window when it’s a rape trial.

Whenever this gets brought up, I always wonder what exactly are the incentives for a woman to levy false rape accusations? There certainly aren’t cash prizes or book deals at stake, just uncomfortable questions and nasty gossip. A woman would still have to go through the whole booking, trial and cross-examination process and have her character and judgement called into question, in a way that isn’t done for other crimes. That’s quite an ordeal to go through just to get revenge, or a spot on Oprah, or whatever is you imagine women are banding together in large numbers to do this for.

I am honestly about to go to dinner – with GIRLS as well as boys. Woah!

Congratulations on your unbelievably gender-diverse group of dining companions.

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants:
Freshly-baked chocolate chip cookies sound lovely, thank you.

Whenever this gets brought up, I always wonder what exactly are the incentives for a woman to levy false rape accusations?

I generally figure they must have some underlying belief that all women must be spiteful, manipulative sadists. More projection on their part probably. We’ve seen some of the manasphere’s fantasies about hurting women they don’t like, maybe they assume women must similarly want to destroy innocent men’s lives out of spite.
And ofc, some of these guys are just rapists who want to keep their rape culture safety net in case they do get (rightly) accused.

Anyway, when it comes to the Pogo sexism and Yahtzee etc. Not that I agree with their views or anything but you have to wonder how their views came to be. I mean, I’ve lived in a lot of countries and I’ve yet to meet an actual sexist.

It’s pretty easy to go through life never meeting “a sexist” when you’re
1) A man. Men don’t personally experience misogyny.
2) The kind of person who only thinks someone can be a misogynist if he outright says “I hate women.” Here’s a newsflash. Most people don’t come right and say they’re bigoted. All of the manosphere groups claim they’re not misogynists. Then they go on to say things like women lie about rape, women are like children, if a woman ever hit me, I’d beat her, women can’t do science, women wearing pants is ruining western civilization. And on and on.

I think there was one night I met one and quickly went my separate way.

How nice for you that you can avoid misogyny by just quickly going your separate way. Women don’t have the luxury of doing that. That’s why the concept of privilege isn’t nonsense like you surely think it is. Privilege isn’t just about gaining things from being in a privileged class. It’s about avoiding all the crap that people in marginalized classes have to put up. For example, I’m white. So I don’t have cops and retail workers treating me as a criminal for simply existing in public. You probably aren’t catcalled constantly. You probably don’t have to prove you aren’t emotional before people will listen to your opinion.

But I do find myself turning sexist from listening and reading the feminist nonsense.

So, this is a threat. Right? You’re essentially saying. I’m not sexist. Yet. But if you feminists don’t keep quiet, I will be! Very classy.

First it’s the base nonsense; Rape culture, Wage gap, Gamergate etc. Then it’s the ones who call anybody who disagree a ‘r___ who doesn’t have a fucking clue’, regardless of how well informed and rational, or at the least, polite, their argument may be.

In what way is rape culture nonsense? Here’s just one example. http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/28/nation/la-na-montana-judge-20130829
A judge blaming a 14 year old girl for being raped by her teacher. Because the 14 year old child “seemed older than her chronological age.” The rapist got a slap on the wrist from this judge and the victim killed herself. That’s just one example. Women are always given an arbitrary and ever expanding list of things she should do not to get raped. Apparently things that are out of their control. Like don’t go through puberty too quickly. That’s rape culture.

As for gamergate. Yeah, it’s nonsense. It’s also not a feminist movement. Not sure why you brought that up.

Then it just boils down to blind anger and in many cases, physical attacks and direct accusations that can often lead innocents to prison (extreme example I know, but still).

Citation needed. Three women are murdered a day by their husbands and boyfriends in my country (the US). Are you really trying to sell me on the notion that the real source of violence is feminists against men. In my country, even though the majority (about 77%) of homicide victims are male, 90% of the perpetrators are male too https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain 110 husbands were murder vs. 603 wives in 2010. Both men and women are far more likely to be killed by a man than a woman.

I’m *not* sexist. But as I said, it sometimes comes up because of the way feminists handle themselves and their message. They are for the most part truly awful at it. They allow the extremists to perpetuate and be heard above all others, and OF COURSE that will breed hate and resentment in men. This is why those reddit forums exist. The angry men are defending themselves against the angry women.

Please provide examples of feminism that is so extreme it justifies misogyny. What could possibly justify bigotry?

It’s time for people to start understanding one another, and consider WHY they’re saying these sexist remarks, WHY women think rape culture exists in the developed west, rather than just state that it’s a fact (which it isn’t) and then just yelling it repeatedly until change happens.

There are entire fields of academia devoted to trying to understand one another. Psychology, sociology, neuroscience etc. There has been plenty of research. For example; men with macho attitudes are more likely to be misogynistic http://www.livescience.com/21172-men-sexist-attitudes-muscles.html

Women think rape culture exists in the west because it does.

When I said I have yet to meet a sexist, I mean, Obviously I have online, in their thousands. But in person, not so much. People are not vocal about it. Some older men I’ve spoken to say some things that are sexist, like women’s role in business and work but it’s a developing world over here, catching up.

You do know that people online are real people that exist in meatspace, right? Also, this is the second time you’ve said that you’ve never met a sexist and then contradicting yourself immediately. You’re pretty much saying that any sexism you encounter just doesn’t count.

There are numerous examples of men being falsely imprisoned, sometimes for years, others committing suicide and others having their entire careers ruined from false accusations of women who, say, claim rape, and then later, after the suicide, admit they only held hands. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, you might consider checking up on it first, rather than just skipping – dismissing (remember when I mentioned that word?)

Citation needed. False rape claims aren’t any more prevalent than false claims for any other crime.

Side note; do any of you Mammotheers have the cite for that? My Google fu is weak today Even looking for false report stats without mentioning rape leads to nothing but wanks about false rape allegations. Lots of AVFM and Return of Kings hits. Although, I guess that’s good evidence of rape culture that you can’t find good statistics amidst hand wringing over false rape accusations despite the fact that they are statistically rare.

Why do I need credible sources for an opinion?

You made a claim. It’s up to you to back it up. You don’t have to provide evidence, but if you don’t nobody will take you seriously.

I am honestly about to go to dinner – with GIRLS as well as boys.

Too bad I didn’t catch you before you left. Because I have homework. Maybe next time.
Ask the women you know if they’ve experienced sexism. Don’t interrupt. Don’t tell them they were imagining it. Just as them questions and really listen to the answers. Ask if they’ve experienced street harassment and at what age it started. Ask if they’ve had their contributions at work or school devalued because of their gender. Ask if they’ve noticed objectifying representations of women in mass media. Ask if they feel there will be negative social consequences for declining to wear makeup. You might just find that unlike you, they’ve encountered plenty of sexist people.

Side note; do any of you Mammotheers have the cite for that? My Google fu is weak today Even looking for false report stats without mentioning rape leads to nothing but wanks about false rape allegations. Lots of AVFM and Return of Kings hits. Although, I guess that’s good evidence of rape culture that you can’t find good statistics amidst hand wringing over false rape accusations despite the fact that they are statistically rare.

WIki’s got everything.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)says:

I am honestly about to go to dinner – with GIRLS as well as boys. Woah!

Most of the people on this site are above the age of 25 (I think Fruitloopsie and I are the only one’s who are below the age of 25…that I know of). We eat with women and men, so you’re obviously not an adult, and if you are, I’m not sure why the parents at the McDonald’s are letting you eat in the ballpit.

Wasn’t there an article recently that described most false rape accusations as being the ‘unknown masked individual attacked me at night’? Does anyone else remember this?

Because trolls gonna troll; I’m not implying any false rape accusations are good, mmkay?

@Pandapool

I turn 25 this year :D. And I’m sad that I was late to the party on this troll, I love the ones who think that sounding smart will boost their credibility. EJ your dissection was awesome! I’m jelly, at the very least I can point this out:

Yes, the ‘i’m not an X, but’ cliche happened, but doesn’t invalidate my claim, as you can read in my second post.

Congratulations, you’ve made an “I’m not an X, but” argument within an “i’m not an X, but” argument. Also, it’s a logical fallacy (called the friend argument) not a ‘cliche’. I could make an inception joke, but that would be to chiche’d.

I’m paraphrasing here, but MLK JR said something like “if we wait for the white moderate to decide when to address racism, we’ll be waiting until judgment day.”

It’s not always useful to compare racism to misogyny but in this case, I think this case I think it applies. If feminists waited for moderate men to decide when we should address misogyny, the time will never come.

In some ways, I think moderates on social issues are more insidious than outright reactionary bigots. They’re the ones who uphold the status quo. Either through apathy, rationalization, or gaslighting. The reactionary can just be dismissed. The moderate attempts to make oppression seem reasonable. That’s far more dangerous.

@isidore13:

I wouldn’t be surprised if that were true. My impression of “false rape accusations” is that the issue tends to just be that someone has difficulty picking out their attacker. I think police (or people reading the reports) treat those cases as if the accuser were straight-up lying that any rape happened at all, rather than accidentally pointing to the wrong person when their memory was a little off.

I wonder if our troll’s feeemale buddies are allowed to have opinions without his male buddies threatening to rape and kill them.
Would he tell his gf she was asking for it if they did?

That would be consistent with his “logic”.

I can’t possibly do a reply to each individual ones but here, I’ll do what I can. If you guys can please be more reasonable instead of insulting me. I’ve already said I’m happy to be taught if I am ignorant. If you want to make a difference, try starting with the individual.

And I realise I’m outnumbered by like, 7 to 1 so it’s clearly futile for me to even attempt to achieve anything here anymore since you can all pat each other on the back whereas I can’t even reach my own. And, given that my original point has been completely ignored in favour of trying to prove I’m a scientist and a sexist, this will be my last post. Do with it what you please.

Ok, onwards.

The post by Lea about us raping and threatening the girls is just, well, I’m sure you can all see that was just unreasonable, right? So let’s just move on from that.

As for falsely accused rape – Yes, I’m sure there are ones that are just difficult to prove, those without reasonable doubt (the entire foundation of american justice system), and just other factors, and EVEN a bit of lingering sexism in the courts that may lead to men getting off. But in other cases, women outright lie. Examples:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jonathan-montgomery-wrongly-imprisoned-in-va/2012/11/13/845e49ac-2dca-11e2-beb2-4b4cf5087636_story.html

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/false-rape-charge-lands-woman-in-prison-for-4-years/1163643/ (suicide)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9788265/Teenager-falsely-accused-of-rape-beaten-to-death-by-gang.html (beaten to death by the false victim and others)

http://www.discussionist.com/101516424

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/man-cleared-manhattan-rape-plans-sue-article-1.1428380 (14 YEARS in jail)

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Woman-Falsely-Accused-Brian-Banks-Rape-Ordered-to-Pay-26M-211689741.html

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/748206.accused_of_raping_girl/

Now, you are likely to tell me that these links are from sexist websites or something, well, I don’t know anyhting about that so try to stop this habit of nitpicking everything I say in order to get yourself a winning argument, and just accept that they exist. All I did was google their names and pick a result. I didn’t pick a biased webpage or something.

As for the rape culture thing, well, I’m not gonna post a load of stuff because it’s honestly easy for you to do but my point is, you may be looking at posts about how rape culture exists, and others like me will be looking at posts on how it DOESN’T exist. So rather than start calling me a rape apologiser or encourager or whatever, how about doing what I came here to say, and understand the situation rather than try to rub spit in my face.

Here’s one example of a link opposing your links (just a quick google) – http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/10/24/statistics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture

As for the Youtubers who had extreme views, no. They had very rational views and are, you guessed it, STEM field intellects, for whatever difference that makes. They say nothing sexist, they just have views that disagree with particular feminists. Obviously I’m not going to say the Youtuber names, I don’t want to be responsible for all you guys visiting it and abusing him, sending him (and her) death letters.

‘If we wait for white moderates, we’ll wait until judgement day’ – Agreed. White middle class etc are so often a fricking (can we swear on this site?) pain and slow processes and are bigots and uninformed and all the other things people claim. I’m white, and I’m very willing to accept that. But I don’t believe I’m one of them. I live in China, and I can see first hand what sexism is.

When I said I don’t hear it in person, I didn’t say ‘that means it doesn’t exist’, The point was that it’s obviously not something we’re all proud of and happy to hear, otherwise they WOULD be spouting it out amongst their friends. But they don’t because they know it’s wrong. And if they did say something like that, they would probably get beaten.

Here in China, you don’t hear it unless you speak the language, but even then they have a level of respect for their women. It’s just that, holistically, the nation is led into a world where men do the work and the women…don’t. A world where I am expected to hold every single item of the women in order to prove I am the manly man and she is the delicate women. A world where, should a couple be in a long lasting relationship, the girl will get everything she wants handed right down to her; the parents may decline a marriage proposal depending on (I’m not kidding here) how big a TV, and how much monetary value the man has that he can treat the girl to. One country folk family I know accepted a single TV for the guy to ‘trade’ their daughter with.

Yeah, I’m aware of sexism, I’m aware of what feminism is, and where feminism needs to be. This is why I was saying about my girlfriend, and how I keep telling her to keep her job and get more careers, and carry her own phone and so on. Not because I want to be in charge – she’s in charge of me as much as I am of her – but because I want her to learn that if she’s going to be with me, we are going to be equal, we are going to be a team. She may be used to her Chinese ways, but I’m not going to take a step back, she’s going to take one forward.

There is no ‘beating’ or ‘threatening’ or whatever you guys seem to think.

Pandapool – something about me being a child – I’m 28, the woah! comment was obviously being facetious. Whenever my friends and I go out to dinner, we basically always have an equal number of girls. It’s not something I go around thinking about, being pompous and pointing to everyone that there are girls with us. There are people married, with a kid and they tend to go to dinner together with us. That’s just how things are when you live an ordinary life like me.

And for your sake, it was a Yunnan style Chinese restaurant, I’ve been cutting out mcdonalds due to my advanced age.

The order is gonna go a bit awry here, sorry.

Yes, false rape claim is not prevalent, in the same way that others aren’t. But they still exist. And in a situation with rape, you KNOW it’s hard to prove, right? So you have to wonder how many more go unnoticed. In the same way we have to wonder how many actual rapes go unnoticed. That’s the very point of being unbiased.

I make a claim, it’s up to me to back it up – Sure, normally I would but as I said, over time I realise that nobody actually reads the links I provide, or even when I just copy the text they want the link because they accuse me of lying etc, it just doesn’t seem worth my time when it’s literally a google away. It’s really not hard, despite it being ‘up to me’. But I have and will be providing a few links.

‘ask women if they’ve experienced sexism don’t interrupt’ – I don’t know why you’d think I’d interrupt them, you assume I’m somebody who interrupts people, I’m not. And I didn’t get your message in time so I didn’t ask, but I already know that they have. But they don’t know it. They see it as China and normal. This infuriates me as much as it does you guys, probably more, because this is China and they are very resigned to their fate.

I’m not aware of any examples you mentioned, however. my GF achieved highest scores at school so if it was devalued, that just says more about her abilities.

Women are not really objectified in China in the same way you may be thinking- In fact a recent TV show was cut off air, had all the cleavage removed and then put back on. Women on TV as far as I can tell are treated very equally to the men. In fact, the women are more often than not portrayed as stronger/faster/smarter than the man, the man always ending up with a bewildered face of surprise, the audience laughing and cheering at the woman after she drank more alcohol or whatever.

The make up thing – well, a all the women around the table wore no make up, so go figure. One of them used to until she got with the American she is with and married to. But since they got together, she stopped wearing make up because he suggested it, he outright said she doesn’t need it. And you know what? So did I.

One of them was going out after the dinner and she went home briefly to put on make up, and you know what, that’s fine too.

I’m aware that women will encounter sexism far more than me, I’d like to repeat that I didn’t say my lack of experience means it doesn’t exist, it means men don’t generally feel proud of it. That’s why my friend’s brother beats his wife with remarks like ‘I’m not stupid enough to leave a mark, but if I do, you’ll have deserved it’. yeah, again, I’m aware it exists.

I’m scrolling bottom-to-top by the way and I’m just wondering, Why does everyone bum EJ so much? not to offend, maybe you are great, who knows.

Your link saying rape culture exists – again, there are plenty of links to say rape culture doesn’t exist

http://thedailybanter.com/2015/04/rape-culture-exists-but-not-in-the-united-states/

http://time.com/30545/its-time-to-end-rape-culture-hysteria/

And just to hammer my point home about being unbiased – http://www.debate.org/opinions/does-america-have-a-rape-culture

‘provide examples of extreme feminism justifying misogyny’ – Nothing ‘justifies’ misogyny. I’m just saying it happens as a result. Somebody mentioned anita sarkeesian. People hate her not because they’re sexist (Yeah, some do, I’m trying to avoid you all nitpicking everything here), but because she’s wrong and a liar. For most people it has little to do with her gender.

As for others, well:

All men are rapists and that’s all they are. – Marilyn French

‘To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo. – Valerie Solanas

‘All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman’.- Catherine MacKinnon

“I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.” Barbara Jordan.

I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire. ―Robin Morgan

Again to avoid nitpicking, yes these are just a minority I know, but they exist, and they are the ones that get heard, unfortunately. Many feminists are open to accept that and accept that it’s a problem, because it has a very strong effect, which I believe is counter to the original goals of feminism.

Citation needed. Three women are murdered a day by their husbands and boyfriends in my country – And 1 in 5 men are physically abused by their wives in my country (UK). Again, both sides of the story.

I’m not trying to sell any notion about the source of violence. you’re putting words in my mouth. I’m saying violence happens in the scenario mentioned.

Gamergate is a largely feminist involved movement (or was?). Again back to rape culture, Yes the thing you showed is an unfortunate thing that happened, and so were the examples I provided above. Both ways. Does that means it’s false rape culture, too? No, it’s that in some instances, some rare (and if not rare, definitely declining) cases, bad things happen that shouldn’t. Again – not ‘culture’.

‘so this is a threat’ – what? No, I’m saying I’m not sexist, but I do get annoyed by many things I read and see. Why on earth would I threaten to arbitrarily become a sexist? What would that achieve. You think I would read an article and go ‘right, that’s it. I’m beating my girlfriend’. No.

The walking away bit – Despite what you might think, I’m not actually an arrogant loud mouth. I’m generally a quiet individual who doesn’t like confrontations. I don’t think calling the police in Korea (where I was at the time) because the guy made a sexist remark would do anything. Nor would making everyone’s night awkward and perhaps even dangerous by raising it as an issue.

Privilege stuff you mentioned – well that wasn’t part of our discussion but I agree entirely with the problems with privilege. However, I have often been catcalled. In fact, I have gotten jobs over others simply because the female staff thought I was handsome. Then I got perpetually preferal treatment to the others who they scrutinised and actively disliked/ignored because they didn’t think he was so handsome. It eventually came to a point that he quit the job before finishing the contract at the female bosses request, losing him the bonus pay he was contractually deserved.

In the meantime, I was given coffee and t-shirts and thank you chocolates constantly by the majority female staff. (I’m not making this up to get across I’m handsome or something – I’m not, I just look like the typical white person Koreans tend to enjoy I guess).

I know women don’t have the luxuries men do, but it still doesn’t imply a rape culture. It implies there are some bad people out there. And not many. The decline of rape just kills the idea of a culture of rape to me. If it was a culture, surely it would be the same or on the increase.

http://mattbruenig.com/2013/03/23/the-dramatic-decline-of-rapes-and-sexual-assaults/

I’m aware most sexism isn’t just ‘I hate women’. People say some ignorant things that can be construed as sexist, but it doesn’t make me think they’re a sexist and start yelling at them. It makes me think they’re ignorant and need to learn to think differently.

Women DO lie about rape, see above. In the same way men lie about things. I think it’s ridiculous that you can imagine a species capable of lying in every aspect, other than rape. Humans are liars, they are capable of lying about anything, and they DO lie about anything and everything. Unfortunately that sometimes includes rape.

If a woman ever hit me, I would say ouch. Women can do science, my sister studies neurology. women wearing pants (trousers right) is fine.

I really don’t think I’m the only guy who thinks like this.

As for the incentive for a woman to lie about rape – there are obvious reasons I don’t think I need to say, but I’ll point out a few: Revenge, spite, shame. You deny these but, I mean look at some of your replies. Pretty full of immediate hate for me. You think it’s that much of a step for a women to accuse a man of rape for some reason? It’s totally reasonable. Women are humans. Some really are sadistic manipulators. Most aren’t, but there will always be some. Same with the men.

‘congrautlations gender diverse’ – Yeah, again I was being facetious. I do have LGBT friends, including a transgender. We both post things on facebook fighting the Transphobia prevalent in all kinds of groups including, you got it, feminists.

Just for something you may enjoy as a break:

girlfriend comes in ‘What are you doing’
‘discussing something online’
‘with who’
‘I don’t know, one goes by the name of EJ thats all I really know’
‘what about’
‘feminism’
‘whats that’
‘you know what it is, I go on about it all the time’
‘I don’t remember’
‘the act of men and women being equal’
‘Oh yeah. What do they think’
‘similar to me I guess’
‘What do you think’
‘you know full well what I think’
‘Yes’
‘what?’
‘you think yes’
‘yes what?’
‘Equal’
‘ah right, yes’
‘does she?’
‘I don’t know which ones are male or female, but yes, just in a different way’

Then she starts to touch me. I say ‘not right now’
she says ‘hmph. Not equal’.

She’s definitely getting the hang of it!

Ok I’ll try and finish off. Gotta get some lunch.

The next bit i’ve already covered so, skip.

Now I’m no american but I believe the court system is sufficient to, for the most part, put the right people in prison when it comes to crimes. Rape is notoriously difficult because as you say, often it’s down to the guys word vs the girls. People mistake this to be favourable to men when really, it’s the lack of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ that gets the man off, whether or not he’s guilty. That’s the way the system works. If you don’t like it, you are free to go to, say Dubai, where the only way a man can get convicted of rape is if four other men were present and all of them admit to his wrongdoing. Even then, the women gets a harsher punishment than the man, for being raped in the first place!

When you learn about this stuff, you tend to put the american system into perspective.

‘he’s allowing his girlfriend to have friends even allows her to leave the house blah blah’ – So you are the afavourite here but so far you’ve come across as the worst person. The ones I’ve just replied to I thought were you since I’m going bottom to top, but then I see their names and it isn’t you. I thought they were reasonable. Then I get to you and you spout that crap?

No. the idea is, she is friends with my friends. But independently. They all met in a place called Nanchang. Sometimes they have get togethers, like mini reunions of the people who lived in Nanchang. Naturally, they all have a +1. I was the plus 1, which she invited along. I initially didn’t want to go because I don’t particularly like one guy, but I went anyway because she wanted my company. Is it so hard to believe that I’m not abusive?

The plus 1 wasn’t meant to prove anything. I’m just trying to emphasise that there are aspects of my life that aren’t just about me controlling girls and standing ona tower, throwing crap at them as I laugh evilly.

Cupinique or whatever – Your comment confuses me so… I dunno. My argument was that some people who say things that feminists disagree with, end up with death threats from some feminists. That’s all. I said nothing about who is justified.

That’s the top of the page and I doubt anyone will even read this far. God knows how much I wrote.

At the end of the day, let’s summarise me, just to defend me, and my original statement.

I am not a sexist. I’ve made that very clear now. Perhaps I say things you disagree with. perhaps I say things that I need to be told are wrong, and improve my views. Perhaps you need to consider the same.

Just because I don’t identify as a feminist does not mean I want what feminists want. I want women to be treated equally, hired equally, I want science to utilise the other 50% of the population they are missing out on. I want more male teachers, (how many times I’ve read about jobs over here asking specifically for white american women). I want equality. i want justice.

Some women are wrongly accused, some men are wrongly accused. Men may get better treatment in general, but I don’t believe that makes a culture.

I have problems with feminist movement and false claims, and false statistics that even Obama recites.

Feminism isn’t perfect. It needs to improve. Everything needs to improve, that’s just life.

If you cannot respect my attempts by now, then there’s something wrong with you. This is my final post anyway so… Hope you enjoy it, and I hope you learn to give guys and even some girls a bit more chance to be heard, a bit more space to improve.

We all know by now that forcing your opinions with rage does nothing more than reinforce the opponent’s original opinions. So as I said from the beginning. Understanding is key.

And, given that my original point has been completely ignored in favour of trying to prove I’m a scientist and a sexist, this will be my last post. Do with it what you please.

1. You never had an original point, just an outpouring of misogyny veiled in a condescending attempt to tell people to be polite.

2. If this is your last post, then interacting with you further isn’t sensible of us. I could just sit here and play Dwarf Fortress for longer instead of reply to you; the two will have the same effect.

Thanks for playing. Thanks for, once again, a lack of proper citations except simply saying “A lot of intelligent Youtubers” and linking some newspaper stories. Those aren’t citations, just stories on newspapers. I can write those myself, it doesn’t prove anything.

You’re a scientist, you say? Then JSTOR, arXiv or STFU, n00b. Vague and implausible claims will get you nowhere.

@ EJ

Not true. I’m interested in what happens with Dwarf Fortress. Omni, not so much

According to my word counter, that was 3264 words (after removing the links), for the curious.

Just think what he could have achieved had he not written that. In my experience, I can write 750 good words in an hour or twice that if I’m rambling. That means that’s two hours of work right there at least.

In two hours… M, how much splatoon could you play in two hours?

A match is three minutes plus about a minute in between, so… 30 matches.

Bloody hell.

That would be a much better use of time.

Sadly the last two hours of my Dwarf Fortress game have consisted of walling off my abortive attempt to break into the caverns and hoping that those cavern denizens don’t find a way in. As such I think thirty matches of splatoon might have been a better use of time.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)says:

This was hell trying the scroll through all that on my phone.

Well, no, not really. Hyperbole. But, fuck man, learn to condense that word count. If you are a scientist, you must pad the shit out of your papers. You probably aren’t because I think you’d say something much more specific than just “scientist”, like there isn’t a millionbillion different branches of science or something.

And what’s with calling yourself sexist when you’ve been saying you haven’t seen much sexism? Kinda proving a point here.

Also, the manager says you need to get out of the ball pit. You’re creeping everyone out.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)says:

@EJ

HA.

If you guys can please be more reasonable instead of insulting me.

All I said was that misogyny is justified because you feminists are so meanie pants. Why aren’t you being nice to me even though this is a site for mocking misogyny. Somebody call the whambulance!!!

I’ve already said I’m happy to be taught if I am ignorant. If you want to make a difference, try starting with the individual.

Maybe because you’re trying to blackmail us into being nice to you by threatening that you’ll become a misogynist if we don’t watch our tones. Just Google feminism 101 or social justice 101 if you truly want to learn. Don’t necro a thread to whine about how horrible feminists are and expect us to react kindly.

This is why I was saying about my girlfriend, and how I keep telling her to keep her job and get more careers, and carry her own phone and so on. Not because I want to be in charge – she’s in charge of me as much as I am of her – but because I want her to learn that if she’s going to be with me, we are going to be equal, we are going to be a team. She may be used to her Chinese ways, but I’m not going to take a step back, she’s going to take one forward.

Can you see the things wrong with this paragraph?

First of all, you’re still telling your gf what to do. And if your comment is anything to go by, you’re doing it in an incredibly condescending way.

Second of all, your attitude is grossly colonialist and you clearly see yourself as some sort of white savior rescuing your gf from her backwards Chinese ways. So you’re racist as well as sexist. Although, if you come back I’m sure you’ll be pearl clutchilngly offended and vigorously protest that.

If you cannot respect my attempts by now, then there’s something wrong with you.

Hahahaha! Nice attempt at gaslighting. No sale.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)says:

Wait he has a girlfriend?

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH no he doesn’t.

He may well. Ironically, the longest relationship of my life was back when I was a proto-MRA asshole. Being a domineering dickcheese doesn’t exactly stop people from dating you, sadly.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.