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Amanda Marcotte takes down Sunshine Mary; Mary digs her hole deeper

sunshine

So Amanda Marcotte has some thoughts on Sunshine Mary’s post about feminism allegedly reducing women to nothing more than sex objects:

Why should women want the attention of men who see them as nothing more than unpaid servants and semen toilets? …

The alternative to having a hateful misogynist around who expects you to clean up after him, accept his ranting about how women are a repulsive subhuman class whose only purpose is service to men, and to masturbate him without any hope of sexual pleasure yourself is simple: Not being with such a man. As many feminists can tell you, there’s a really pleasant alternative: Men who like women and like to hang out with us and aren’t just tolerating us in exchange for sex and housework.

But what if, as manosphere men (and antifeminist women like Sunshine Mary) like to gloat, you can’t find a man?

Being alone is better than being with a man who thinks you’re part of a degraded class put here to serve him. No matter how much misogynists may rant, they can’t get around this inherent problem in their philosophy, which is that “alone” is always a superior alternative to their company.

Sunshine Mary has responded with a post that basically argues, well, but men don’t like you, you fat slutty feminists — take that!

One of the core pillars of feminism seems to be trying to control how men think about women.  We want to be seen as smart, so by fiat order we’ll command men to see us as equally intelligent.  We want to be seen as having the ability to be sexually promiscuous, so we’ll command men to hold a positive opinion of sluttery.  We want to be seen as beautiful at 200 pounds, so we’ll command men to find us hot despite our obesity.

But it doesn’t work.  Men don’t like slutty women for anything other than sex, as the last comment thread here rather conclusively proved.  Men don’t find fat women attractive.  Men don’t like bitchy, loud-mouthed mannish feminists.  Men don’t care about women’s supposed careers.  All the commands in the world will only cause men to keep their opinions quiet, but it does not change those opinions.  All the attempts in the world at resocializing men to like what feminism has turned women into will always fail because it works against the natural order of things.

Now this is just nonsensical and, you know, not true for all but a backwards and rather assholish subset of men. But it’s what follows that’s really chilling — not chilling because it reflects reality, but chilling because it suggests how punitive and self-hating Sunshine Mary’s philosophy really is.

She argues that feminists find the Manosphere “scary” because manosphere misogynists won’t do what feminists want them to do.

It is scary to imagine that men will stop doing what they are told by women to do.  It is scary to feminists in particular because, instead of being dependent on one man like I am, they are dependent on men as a group to fund them.

Men pay the majority of taxes in the United States.  Without men’s taxes, student financial aid for Women’s Studies degrees will dry up.  Without men’s taxes, baby mamas will starve.  Without men financing it, women who are being placed into corporate leadership simply as a response to affirmative action and who then quit these jobs after a year to write tear-filled articles in the Atlantic about work-life balance, demanding even more subsidies from men to ensure that women never need to suffer the consequences for their stupid choices, will cease.  I only have to manage my husband’s opinion of me in order to secure his provisioning; feminists have to control all men’s opinions of them in order to secure their provisioning.

Yep, that’s right. Sunshine Mary believes that women are incapable of taking care of themselves and so must depend, essentially, on appeasing men in order to survive. She thinks she’s lucky because she only has to appease one man, while women who actually, you know, earn a living have to appease all men. Because they’re not really earning a living. They’re just playing at earning a living because the men of the world are nice enough to humor them.

But don’t make the men mad, Sunshine Mary warns, because then you’re screwed!

And she seems rather pleased that she can make this threat from what she percieves as her position of relative security.

How fucked up is that?

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amandajane5
amandajane5
8 years ago

What about those of us who make more money than our husbands? That demographic has been rapidly increasing lately. Am I somehow magically getting money from him while paying the bills?

drst
drst
8 years ago

I feel horribly sorry for Mary. What a terrible, anger and fear filled existence she must have.

Meanwhile, we totally need the Elder Sluts to exist. If they can get “Jedi” recognized as a religion, surely this can happen.

Ally S
8 years ago

[Content note: fat-shaming, suicide, bullying, self-hatred]

@sunshinemary

Third, obesity is a health epidemic in our country; feminists are doing no one any favors with their delusional fat acceptance movement. I’ve been very open about the fact that I struggled with my weight in my thirties, at one point ballooning up to 185 pounds (I’m 5’7″) after the birth of our last child. Going by what feminists say, I should have just accepted that and told my husband to suck it up and deal with the fact that he had a chubster for a wife. Instead, I got my butt in gear on the treadmill and slimmed down considerably in my 40s, but it is still a daily struggle. To say that men on average find fat women attractive is simply denialist. Most men do not. It’s that simple.

Delusional? Are you kidding me?

From ages 12-16, I faced shaming and bullying for being slightly fat. My father made me feel like I was disgusting and uncouth just because of my body size. My peers ostracized me and made jokes about me being bigger (and taller) than everyone else. And I was told, over and over again, that being fat means that I’m careless, unpleasant, and unworthy of love. And I believed every word.

On top of all of that, I didn’t lose any weight. Not a pound. I hated going outside to exercise because I was terrified (and still am, to an extent) of people my age laughing at me and calling me pathetic as I try to go on a jog. I felt that I could only exercise if I exerted myself to a great degree because that would “prove” to others that I’m not like those other fat people. But of course, I couldn’t overexert myself because then I would be visibly exhausted, and if I appeared that way to anyone, people would start thinking “Haha look at that fat kid sweating like a dog. He’s [sic] so lazy and weak.” As for changing my diet, I was afraid of being seen as “pathetic” for wanting to avoid junk food and eating things like fruit instead. It was as though I was worthless and disgusting for being fat in the first place, so eating healthy would be pointless and only serve as entertainment for people skinnier than me.

So I felt I had no way to escape shaming and ridicule. Things only got slightly better when I turned 17, the age I got skinny. And then I learned about the term “fat-shaming” from feminist blogs. I read many stories of people being shamed for being fat and articles about the harmful effects of fat-shaming, and for the first time ever I felt acceptance and love. I finally encountered spaces in which people called out others for body-shaming and questioned the assumption that being fat is necessarily unhealthy. And on top of that, my own views towards other fat people transformed completely. I will go as far as to say that, if it weren’t for reading about fat-acceptance on the internet, I would feel even worse.

Nevertheless, the shaming has been so damaging to me that, even as someone who is well aware of the harmful effects of fat-shaming, I have a mild eating disorder. Whenever I’m in public by myself, I either starve myself or just eat snacks that are easy to hide from people. I do that because I keep thinking that I’m disgusting for having to eat in front of others. Sometimes I feel that I don’t even deserve to be in the same space as others because my physical presence is unpleasant for everyone. None of this pain would be in my life if I weren’t shamed and bullied constantly in the past and if fat-shaming was stigmatized.

Fat-acceptance isn’t delusional at all. Of course people who advocate fat-acceptance realize that a lot of folks don’t find fat people attractive. And no one is obligated to be attracted to anyone. Fat-acceptance has never been about telling people who to be attracted to. It’s about criticizing attitudes such as “If you’re fat, no one will love you,” “It’s impossible to be fat and attractive,” “You’re probably lying about being raped because you’re too fat and ugly.” Your accusation of denialism is baseless. I strongly suggest that you read about what fat-acceptance really is before making insensitive, ill-informed remarks about a movement that has helped me and countless others regain a significant amount of self-love, self-acceptance, and confidence.

Ally S
8 years ago

Sorry, I should have added “rape apologia” to that content note.

Shaenon
8 years ago

(What is MRA’s deal with Gender/Women’s studies anyway? Do a lot of people get those degrees? Is that inherently stupider than getting degree in philosophy or marketing or Latin-American studies or poli-sci? Or is it just that gender isn’t worth talking about academically?)

Obviously it’s the stupidest degree because it studies women, the stupidest people. Second stupidest is a tie between all degrees held by large numbers of women, from English lit to biochemistry.

Third stupidest: Puppetry.

Shaenon
8 years ago

Wow, my first blockquote fuckup.

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

Oh man, you know who I know who’s somewhere between overweight and obese by BMI standards? My sister. You know what else my sister is? A nationally-ranked collegiate athlete.

BMI is basically the worst way to determine health. I mean, hell, I’ll certainly admit that I’m not perfectly toned myself or anything, but you know what? Perfect blood pressure.(Unless my vagal syncope gets triggered, in which case my blood pressure plummets to the point where I pass out, but that’s a genetic rather than a weight-related thing.)

Shaenon
8 years ago

Yes, you have correctly summarized my position. That is exactly right. Women in general are less productive and, without investment from men, would be unable to support themselves. Women make up the overwhelming majority of recipients of government aid; men pay the bulk of income taxes. Do the math.

Weren’t you just on the Raw Story thread bragging about how you manage to balance childrearing with a job outside the home? That doesn’t sound unproductive. It also doesn’t sound different from the way most women live.

ostara321
ostara321
8 years ago

Re: women telling men what to think of them

I honestly cannot think of a sadder way to view relationships between men and women.

I don’t tell my fiance what to think of me, or anything else for that matter. Why would I? I didn’t agree to marry him because I wanted some dudebot to control. I fell in love with him because he has an intelligent and inquisitive mind, a thirst for knowledge and a wonderfully humorous way of communicating his thoughts and ideas. We tend to agree on most things, but we often tend to arrive at our opinions differently, and learning how he learns about things to me is one of the best parts of our relationship. When we don’t agree, he can often bring up thoughts or ideas I didn’t think of and that’s very fulfilling as well. I don’t want someone I can control – that’s not a relationship. I want someone to be with and connect with emotionally, intellectually, AND physically.

Saying (married, cis, hetero) women have to control what their husbands think assumes that men are incapable of thinking for themselves and caring about things. I honestly can’t believe MRAs don’t call her out for this man-hating garbage.

Course, the assumption that men’s thoughts need to be controlled by their wife-slaves plays along really nicely with the idea that women are all hypergamous, controlling, harpies, so maybe that’s why some of them are ok with it.

As for what other men think of me or other women – I honestly couldn’t care less. And THAT more than anything else, for still a surprising amount of people in 20 fucking 13, seems to be the problem. That there exist in this world women who don’t care what men think, and that they are ALLOWED to not care.

Semi-unrelated – where the fuck did this idea that all feminists are fat acceptance advocates and vice versa come from? Yes, FA is related to feminism (IMHO, it can’t not be), but even Amanda Marcotte as far as I know isn’t exactly totally hunky dory with FA.

pecunium
8 years ago

Cassandra: And now I’m trying to figure out how to conjugate the verb “smite”. “Smitten” doesn’t seem quite appropriate as a way to describe being walloped by the holy hammer, but “smited” sounds silly.

Smite, Smitten, Smote, .

I will smite you.

I have smitten him

I smote him.

He was smitten

But smitten has lost punch (mostly being used for one besotted in calf-love), and did some time ago (late 18th early 19th century usage was, “he was smote”, to relate to violence, while smitten for affairs of the heart).

ceebarks
ceebarks
8 years ago

holy shit, just read the comments. So they’re talking about some dude named “Danny” who has foresworn marriage, and how sad it is that no woman will get this great catch ’cause the fat-feminist-sluts have gone and screwed up the terms of the deal:

“Career navy, will get pension, then start good second career making megabucks” [my experience with military retirees: this likely means either federal gov’t job, or federal contractor. We have a HUGE military complex. It’s the biggest jobs and social welfare program the US has. Most people outside the system seem to have no idea what kind of money is involved.]

How is this guy not considered a large and probably needless drain on national resources but a woman raising a couple of kids with a fistful of WIC checks is?

could it be…. baseless misogyny? 😉

ceebarks
ceebarks
8 years ago

Obviously it’s the stupidest degree because it studies women, the stupidest people. Second stupidest is a tie between all degrees held by large numbers of women, from English lit to biochemistry.

Third stupidest: Puppetry.

Thanks for clearing that up. 😀 I think we can safely deduce that everything women do of their own free will is stupid and unproductive.

We know this is true, because the definition of stupid and unproductive activities is that women do them.

Now all of our poor overworked fem-hamsters can rest easy for awhile.

Well, poo; and now I have frittered away my morning on sunshine mary and her erm, “insights.” Ugh, that IS stupid and unproductive.

see yas!

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

Lolwut, I lived in Virginia Beach in high school, which is the biggest Navy town in the US. There are a hell of a lot of Navy families who aren’t bringing in the big bucks at all. Even retirees have no guarantee of a post-retirement job, especially not one that is super-well-paying. Sure, you’ll be fine if you attained a high rank during that career, but just saying “Oh I’m Navy” isn’t really going to reassure anyone that you’re a good catch financially.

For real, one of my friends with a career navy dad is living on food stamps these days.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Or you could get a job and not have to appease any man! (Except possibly your boss, and you don’t have to fuck him or make him dinner.)

I’ve seen that tendency to use “dominate” when they mean “dominant” before. Is it a religious thing? As in, maybe some older translation of the Bible uses the word “dominate” that way and they’ve decided that holiness trumps good grammar?

With her willing embrace of the term “semen toilet” Mary finally made me feel sorry for her for a moment. Didn’t last long, though.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Wait, former military make mega-bucks? Cuz my cousin is a teacher, and both my grandfathers came back from WWII to do factory work and repair jobs (now, I learned how to do electronic repair from the later, so I can’t say I’m displeased, but it wasn’t big money)

Wonder if she actually knows any veterans, or bases this on TV and assumptions.

And as for my favorite veteran, I ninja’ed you big time (nickname of the day?)

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

One of my favorite manosphere tropes is the assumption that all women – or at least, all feminists -who go to college get women’s studies degrees. Now I’m wondering, are there any Manboobzers with degrees in women’s/gender studies?

Now if I ever decide to open a bar it shall be called The Temple of Whorus, in which the first few drops of every Cosmo are poured on the altar of the Elder Beings as libation and the Eldersluts hold court. It’s a syncretic religion, of course, so further suggestions are welcomed.

I would totally go to that bar, and I don’t even drink.

Sex & The City should be playing on all the TVs, with a few minutes in between for videos of men getting kicked in/falling on their balls. There will be naked male go-go dancers (paid a living wage + tips!)

You don’t have to take this to mean that women are actually inferior to men and should be submissive outside the bedroom.

And I’ll say about Christian Paternalists the same thing I say about Goreans: submission in a kink context only works if the sub has power to exchange with you, which requires them to be your equal, or at least to have the right to say no. If you believe that women are or should be naturally submissive, that’s not kink, it’s sexualized oppression.

Gawker recently covered Roosh’s “bang chart” of the world, and it was fun reading the comments of people who were entirely shocked to know that these folks exist.

Ooh, link?

Women in general are less productive

Citation, please? Also, would you please define “productive”?

Also, the point of fat acceptance isn’t to force people to be attracted to fat people. The point is to remind people that fat people are, you know, people, and are entitled to the same dignity, respect, and privacy as everyone else (as opposed to the current state of things, in which fat bodies are subject to public scrutiny and shaming from complete strangers).

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I am, in general, attracted to men who are significantly thinner than average. And I still support fat acceptance. Why? Because I don’t have to want to fuck someone to see them as a person who deserves to be treated decently.

Turning the issue of fat acceptance into a referendum on whether or not you, personally, want to fuck fat people just seems incredibly childish and selfish.

Keith
Keith
8 years ago

Mary I can attest to what mdubz referred to about male gradutae students being supported by his partner. I am currently taking a graduate class in Sociology while my wife is working full time in the corporate world and supporting myself and our 2 young children. I am taking the class online and taking care of the children, cooking , and managing the household while my wife is at work. We are not sure how long this arrangement will go on as it is now
but my wife and I agreed that if this has to be forever as long as there is good food on the table and a happy household so be it. Also my wife and I are about average in weight but we have both been a few pounds chucnky in the past and it made no bearing on me as a male what she weighed. I don’t lover her for her weight it is for not onlly her physical beauty but her inner beauty more importantly.

but we both have agreed that if it is for eternity and there is good food on the table and a happy household so be it.

Also My wife and I are both

now but we have both agreed that if this is for eternity and theres good food on the table

and a happy household the so be it. We are okay with that.

Keith
Keith
8 years ago

Sorry my computer is acting up my comment should have just been 2 paragraphs ,please ignore the mumbo jumbo on the bottom.sorry.

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

Now I’m wondering, are there any Manboobzers with degrees in women’s/gender studies?

I have most of a degree in sociology, which isn’t quite the same thing but does deal with a lot of issues of privilege across different groups. I couldn’t quite finish, though; I couldn’t afford the extra semester for the two classes I needed. I did the minor, though, and I took more than the required number of 400-level classes for the major, so I figure it’s almost as good, combined with the psych degree I did get. I considered going back to school to go for a master’s in soc, since I really like it and find it super-interesting, but I don’t really know how I’d make a living off that, so it’s probably off the table.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

“Men more productive.”

Hmph.

I mean, sure, when you actively exclude women from the ranks of what you consider ‘productive’ jobs, when you decide that HR isn’t doing anything at all and exclude that from the idea of productivity…

Here’s a fun paper to read. http://www.fao.org/docrep/013/i2050e/i2050e04.pdf (PDF warning!)

Basically, did you know that there is a measurable productivity gap between male and female farmers? Well, “Most of the studies found that differences in yields were attributable to differences in input levels”–it’s the discrimination, right? And if you close the discrimination, female farmers become as productive, and occasionally more productive, than the male farmers.

So, again, sure, when you actively exclude women from tech jobs and harass them out… yes, they’re going to look less productive in tech jobs, because of all the fighting it takes just to get you to let them in the door in the first place.

Shaenon
8 years ago

My ex-Air Force cousin makes mega-bucks as an attorney, after spending time as a lawyer for the Pentagon and NASA. But she’s a girl, so she probably doesn’t count.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

I got a picture of one of the fry! http://instagram.com/p/fnh7-gI9rz/

Head to tail it’s about as long as my pinkie nail side to side. So I thank the little one for resting on the PVC where I could get a pic.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The “logic” is just so funny. Women are unproductive, so we force them to be less productive, and that will solve everything! “Everything” in this case meaning “the hurty feelings of a few grouchy traditionalists”.

10knives
10knives
8 years ago

Fittingly for someone who seems to be a social conservative Christian, SSM’s argument for Male Superior Suck Their Dicks is a re-skin of The God of the Gaps (or No True Scotsman?).

“Women are less productive.” says SSM. What’s productive? Whatever women aren’t.

It reminds me of previous threads where commenters pointed out that sexist gamers started to disavow JRPGs and puzzlers as “not REAL games” when women became the primary players of those genres.

Similar thing (another thread comment on here months back covered this well) with how early computer programming was viewed as lowly women’s work on par with secretary stuff – until it became apparent that it was an important and potentially high paying vocation. Then governments and corporations actively forced women out and claimed it was superior man’s work all along.

I’m amazed SSM hasn’t thrown her back out trying to move those damn goalposts.

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