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Men’s Rights Redditors wonder why nobody else realizes that the ladies aren’t oppressed any more

For example, women never have to fight off flying squirrels, which are very bitey, mind you.
For example, women never have to fight off flying squirrels.

So the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit are currently discussing one of the most important — if often overlooked — issues of our time, which is: How come nobody but us sees that the ladies aren’t oppressed any more? Or, as  paranoiarodeo497, looking hopefully towards the future, has chosen to put the question: “What future event/tragedy do you think will happen that will make people realize not only are women no longer deprived but in fact equal to men?”

Alas, the Men’s Rightsers aren’t hopeful that anything will wake up the snoozing sheeple. BrambleEdge, for his part, worries that men will remain oppressed forever.

BrambleEdge 17 points 15 hours ago (18|1)  Seeing as men are deprived and far from equal to women, and people don't see it now, I doubt they ever will. I sometimes fear that gynocentrism is biological and not cultural.        [–]Demonspawn [-1] 1 point 52 minutes ago (1|0)      gynocentrism is biological  Treating women as human beings and men as human doings? Yes, it is biological. It's also why "equality" isn't, and seeking it creates a system of female supremacy.

Shrekem, meanwhile, turns to the work of eminent historian GirlWritesWhat for evidence that women were never oppressed in the first place:

Shrekem 9 points 13 hours ago (12|3)  The problem is that women were never oppressed or deprived, they just had different roles. Women are certainly not "equal" to men today, they receive special treatment and are immune to many laws that would get a man locked up for life. I recommend you watch Karen Straughan's video on "When female privilege backfires".      permalink     source     save     give gold     hide child comments  [–]villevillakulla -4 points 11 hours ago (4|8)  I guess it depends on how you define oppressed or deprived, but it kind of sounds like you're full of shit, and "different roles" can be a blanket statement to mean anything you want it to mean.      permalink     source     save     parent     give gold  [–]Shrekem 5 points 8 hours ago (6|1)  I would define oppression as "the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner" just like everybody else. I challenge you to come up with one example of women being oppressed in western society in the past few centuries. The treatment of women is nothing compared to real oppression like that of blacks during slavery.

IHaveALargePenis, in addition to being highly confident about his relative penis size, is also a bit more optimistic than his peers, suggesting that the irresponsibility of evil slutty single moms will eventually end up annoying not only single men but other women as well and thus, I guess, help to spark a new wave of antifeminism:

IHaveALargePenis [+3] 5 points 12 hours ago (6|1)  Government taxing bachelors to sponsor single moms/women in general. If shit keeps going the way it's going, everything women need will be provided by a government, while working less and claiming there's still a pay gap. It won't take a genius to put two and two together and realize that the benefits women get from the government, plus the benefits they get from working are huge compared to what men pay/get out of it.  But that's not when things will change, not yet. What we're going to see is a rise of single, irresponsible moms who breed and have their lives paid for by taxpayers. And part of those taxpayers will be other women, who can't find men willing to "breed with them" or marry them, etc. These women will be working 40+ hours a week easy, will sacrifice greatly, miss their chance to have kids, and realize they're paying for all these irresponsible women to have their cake and eat it to (our society is pretty good at rewarding the irresponsible). That's when things will change.
But Scoundrel, a more pessimistic sort, can’t imagine any scenario that would get the evil femmies to admit that men are oppressed:

scoundrelTW 6 points 13 hours ago (8|2)  It will never happen. If the government should start killing random men, the feminists would claim that men are being targeted because they are more valuable, so therefore, it is still patriarchy. Feminists will NEVER let go of their assertion that men are privileged relative to women. It would break up their club and their life's purpose.
Sorry, IHaveALargePenis, but you’ve been outvoted.

Meanwhile, loose-dendrite, off on a bit of a tangent, warns those who might otherwise be susceptible to feminist-think that seeing similar numbers of men and women in positions of power would not be a sign of gender equality — but rather a symptom of FEMALE TYRANNY!

loose-dendrite 7 points 16 hours ago (12|5)  Most feminists seem to think that equal representation in all positions of power is sufficient. Seeing as feminists have moved to goal posts in the past, I find this unconvincing.  It would also almost certainly indicate a massive imbalance against men due to a few factors:      Female IQ is less extreme than male IQ. There are more male geniuses and idiots. Our leaders should be smarter than average so they can handle the mentally difficult job of managing our society. Therefore one expects more men than women in power going simply by intellectual merit. If representation is equal then some imbalance against men must exist (even if there is also an imbalance somewhere against women).     Men have higher testosterone and therefore are more likely to participate in status seeking behavior. In other words, there's more male than female interest in power because power is high-status. If there is equal representation then an imbalance against men must exist. I consider this an inferior argument to point #1 because I don't remember the associated research very well.

Huh. I was unaware that high IQ was a prerequisite to power in our society. Did anyone tell George W. Bush?

In conclusion, MRAs have once against shown that they can use any and all evidence to “prove” what they already believe. Another flawless victory over the forces of reality.

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Marie
8 years ago

@Ally S

Not sure what to say other than that that sounds really stressful 🙁

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

@Ally S: I think the SATs do a good job of measuring a certain kind of intelligence, the kind that performs well on multiple-choice tests.

I tended to perform well on tests throughout my primary education. I did very well on my ACTs (I got a perfect score on the reading portion, which hiked up my slightly lower STEM scores). I did somewhat less well on the SATs.

I am sorry that your uncle decided he could discipline you into a higher SAT score.

@Marie: Don’t worry, I ramble and lose track of my point all the time.

It’s the lying to children that gets me about creationism. It’s all Goddidit, with a healthy side dish of STFU.

I am so goddamn embarrassed that my home state of Kentucky is home to the Creation “Museum,” and that it gave Ham millions of dollars in tax credits to build an Ark Park that’s never going to happen.

… Sorry, it’s a bugbear of mine. I’ll shut up now.

I’d happily feed Ken Ham to the dropbears but that would be animal cruelty.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

At one point one of my uncles imposed a strict studying schedule for me that basically left me with no more than 3 hours of free time (total, across three breaks) and 6 hours of sleep.

Ugh. That is abusive, and awful, and all the sympathy.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

I’d happily feed Ken Ham to the dropbears but that would be animal cruelty.

…as well as cruelty to animals…

😀

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

…by which I mean to play on the term ‘animal cruelty,’ not imply that Ken Ham is an animal. (in hindsight, that sounded wrong, and I wish I had chosen my words better)

Ally S
8 years ago

@Falconer

Yeah, for a while I wanted to try the ACT because I like the material a lot more – it’s easier for me to grasp for some reason. My score on the SAT never went beyond 1780. V_V It still makes me feel horrible when I think about it, even though 3 years have passed since then.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

My score on the SAT never went beyond 1780.

Umm…..

Typo?

Please tell me typo.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Oh, wait, they’re scoring it differently now than when I took it.

(feels old)

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

@Howard Bannister: No worries, I got it.

@Ally S: I feel like it’s an inescapable downside to assessing students’ progress that a poor grade makes people feel worth less, and consistently poor grades with little improvement can lead to feelings of worthlessness. I wish I knew how to fix it.

Anyway, virtual no-contact hugs!

I never had to work hard at school until I hit college, so I admire your capacity to haul yourself up by your bootstraps (if you’ll forgive the expression).

Ally S
8 years ago

*Sigh* it’s not a typo. =[ (In case you think it’s too high, the SAT now goes up to 2400).

freemage
8 years ago

Consider this an official declaration of SCAAAAA*:

Most often, ‘personal’ religious beliefs are relatively harmless. Almost all supernatural beliefs tend to be silly to someone who doesn’t share them, because, well, they are. Silly and harmless, though, is not something people need to get worked up about.

Supernatural beliefs are most likely to become harmful when you add the word ‘organized’ to ‘religion’. Organization, by its very nature, breeds power-structures. Those at the top have a vested interest in making certain they remain there, and may succumb to the temptation to employ harmful methods to do so. This is true even in secular organizations; for example, the recent outbreak of public misogyny within the ‘elite’ members of the burgeoning atheist movement. That said, because supernatural belief systems have those elements within them that, when taken to their logical conclusions, conflict with reality, the oppression required to maintain the power-structure must be strong enough to counter everyday evidence in the human psyche.

FREX: “God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.” This is pretty much an underlying belief of every major Christian faith, and most of the minor ones. But it’s rather… difficult to reconcile those alleged qualities with a created Earth that contains rapists, hurricanes and childhood leukemia. So in order to hold it together, you have to introduce other ideas (such as the Fall From Grace/Original Sin). These other ideas have consequences of their own, and these consequences may breed additional effects. A good deal of classic misogyny found in Christianity stems directly from the ‘just so’ story of the Garden of Eden, because they needed to explain why a loving God cast his “Chosen People” out of paradise (or, more precisely, they needed to explain why He hadn’t provided them one to begin with, if He really existed).

In a forum largely dedicated to mocking misogyny, it’s acceptable to point out the inherent and/or consequent misogyny of a particular belief system, and to mock them for it. You want to rip on ex-Pope Benedict’s trashing of American nuns for daring to think that doing ninety percent of the good works of the Church actually entitled them to views and opinions, go for it. But when encountering beliefs that are not inherently anti-Social Justice in nature, there’s really no cause to go alienating and insulting others just to make yourself feel superior; the odds are you’re not a perfect rationalist, either, because that’s a damnably difficult position to hold and enact 24/7.

There are times and places for discussions of Spaghetti Monsters, Celestial Teapots and Invisible Pink Unicorns. Manboobz, in general, is not that place.

*: Society of Capital-A Atheists Against Asshat Atheism

Ally S
8 years ago

@Falconer

I feel like it’s an inescapable downside to assessing students’ progress that a poor grade makes people feel worth less, and consistently poor grades with little improvement can lead to feelings of worthlessness. I wish I knew how to fix it.

I think it depends on how you’ve been raised and the people around you. If the family members who asked me to do the SAT were loving, supportive, and forgiving, I wouldn’t feel worthless at all. And if I weren’t taught that grades are everything, I wouldn’t attach all of my life’s hopes to a high standardized test score.

Of course I’d still feel bad about not doing well, but I wouldn’t literally feel worthless and unintelligent.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Ally, all I can tell you is that the three smartest people that I know did terribly on the SAT. Anecdata, I know. But judging by what I’ve seen evidenced here, you’re in that same camp.

titianblue
titianblue
8 years ago

I’ve taken an awful lot of exams in my life and the one thing I learned from it was that when my beloved nephew came panicking to me about his latest exams, he didn’t want to hear “Don’t panic, you’ll do well”, he needed to hear “it doesn’t matter if you fail them all. The world won’t end, your future won’t end and we will still all love you to bits.”

katz
8 years ago

I think we should separate identity from belief, although they’re often intertwined. Beliefs are capable of being true or false independently of the honesty of the person expressing them, and therefore the analogy between religion and trans don’t always work, since more or less beliefs may be involved.

Dvarg, this was a really good comment. I think you’ve got it spot-on and you captured a lot of nuance that I was having trouble pinning down (eg, the difference between “things that you can’t be wrong about” vs “things that you theoretically might be wrong about but we can’t really know and probably shouldn’t make a big deal about” vs “things that you can be provably wrong about”).

I do believe that if religion should disappear tomorrow, human society would simply devise a different tool to maintain authority. And it’s true that my mother going to church every Sunday does no harm to me. But, the men who run this country and who use religion to limit my rights and to perpetuate fear and hatred do cause harm to me.

In response to this and all other comments pointing to things that religion does that are harmful: As long as you think that the problem is what religious people are doing, not the simple fact of them being religious, then you’re still squarely in the second camp (the “harm is the result of actions” camp; the original comment was here if you missed it) and we’re all basically in agreement. It’s when you get into the “religious people are delusional and need to be cured of their delusion” position (or “gay/trans people are mentally ill,” or whatever) that you’re in the first camp.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Remember when we were talking about what IQ tests measure? Largely the ability to do well on IQ tests.

Same with the SAT.

I know I scored way better on the SATs than a friend of mine who is a lot smarter than I am. I’m an excellent test taker. My test taking skills are off the charts! Because I’m very, very good at recognizing when I can’t answer a question and skipping it.

My skipping skills are EXCELLENT.

And yet, I’ve found no real-world situation where that actually helps at anything. It’s only good for tests.

(well, actually, I do take tests regularly for certifications, but they’re designed so knowing what to skip is minimally useful)

So, there was this test at college. And I’d gone to college with my sister. And it was an essay. Just an essay. To test your essay writing skills.

And before she took the test I kept telling her how monumentally easy this test was, to try to bolster her confidence. Because writing for me is like breathing, I love it, and I had easily passed this test. And I kept telling her it was a piece of cake.

When she failed the test, every word I’d said about how easy it was acted like a little knife, stabbing at her. I have never in my life felt so bad about trying to make somebody feel good.

She, of course, is an eloquent writer who had all As in her writing classes. But being tested, having a time limit, she just choked right up and couldn’t do it.

It’s testing your test-taking abilities, and the kind of specific schooling you’ve received. Not real-world abilities.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Nepenthe

Fictionkin? Seriously, is there any delusion that some speshul snowflake out there hasn’t created to make their sorry lives more palatable?

Wow, fuck you. I’d appreciate that you not deride friends of mine, thank you very much. Believe it or not, there are people with these identities that don’t run around in the street shrieking about how special they are. Most people I know actually don’t talk about it FOR THE REASON YOU DEMONSTRATE. Christ, what an asshole.

RE: Nepenthe

Well, I just discovered an invisible unicorn in my bathtub whose tears cure cancer if you believe in it, learned that I’m the reincarnation of Carl Sagan, and that the universe will end unless I give all my money to some guy named Steve. My life is so much better now that I understand. Yesterday I was a fairly normal, marginally employed, mentally ill person. Now I’m Special and Important and Significant to the Universe. Thanks for letting me know that reality doesn’t matter!

I’m going to go make the unicorn cry now. If I don’t make a lot of money, Steve will destroy the world.

Gee golly willikers, Nepenthe, I’ve never heard anyone say sarcastic things like THAT before! I’ve never even CONSIDERED such things. But you, with your deep understanding of human behavior and incisive commentary, have totally upended my world philosophy. Thank you. Thank you very much.

(You realize I’m one of those marignally employed mentally ill people, who, due to some of my beliefs, YOU consider Special and Important? I don’t; that’s all you. Seriously, get off your high horse and get a life.)

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Kittehserf

if Sal starts chasing rubbers (not condoms! It’s what my sister calls little tennis balls) again.

We had a German exchange student at my high school once. Very nice girl. The most hilarious story she had of cultural barrier was when she asked her host family for rubbers–she meant erasers.

RE: Ally

Ugh, that schooling experience bites. I’m sorry. I was one of those kids who always did well in school, and learned pretty soon in that this didn’t correlate to doing well in the workforce. I didn’t get the SAT grilling, but I had a pretty similar experience with a school test on the capitals of the countries Europe. I will never, ever forget the capital of Denmark, because that stupid city reduced us to tears as a child.

It took me a long time to learn that apparently being tossed out of the house at 10 AM to go jobhunting and being put on a five-apps a day regimen is not normal parental behavior regarding their sixteen-year-old children. (Especially since I was given NO training in how to actually hunt for jobs, so we just spent hours driving from shop to shop, looking for ‘Help Wanted’ signs.)

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

I will never, ever forget the capital of Denmark, because that stupid city reduced us to tears as a child.

Surprisingly common event, that. Copenhagen isn’t nicknamed Copenhell for nothing.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

I’d QFT LBT’s comment to Nepenthe, but it’s long, and right there. In any case, thank you for summarizing what I was thinking.

And hugs to all the people with shitty families // school experiences // or otherwise wanting hugs.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

It took me a long time to learn that apparently being tossed out of the house at 10 AM to go jobhunting and being put on a five-apps a day regimen is not normal parental behavior regarding their sixteen-year-old children.

wut

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Argenti

*bows* A lot of people I know, were they out, would get them written off as “special snowflakes.” I live with a fucking DALEK. He’s a nice entity who likes cephalopods, helps me with my rent and works a job and goes to college. But I guess that doesn’t mesh with the narrative, does it?

RE: Fibinachi

This only makes me feel better about not having Denmark on my travel wish list. (I WILL get to Prague one day, though. I gotta pay my respects to the Great One!)

RE: Falconer

Oh good. I still sometimes can’t shake the idea that this is actually how all parents behave and being bothered by it just means I’m soft.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“But I guess that doesn’t mesh with the narrative, does it?”

Of a Dalek? No, not at all XD

All the cephalopod love though, they’re creepy smart.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

@LBT:
Oh, drop by Denmark anyway. It’s not a bad city – or country. I’ve got a couch you’re welcome to use.

But, anyway.

No, no – that isn’t regular parental behaviour in relation to job searches.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Argenti

I know, right? Shock of all shocks, sometimes people who seem “special,” actually go about their lives in a quiet, ordinary fashion as best they can.

Cephalopods are AWESOME. Hey, do you still got that link for that vid on color-changing you posted earlier? I really want to post it to tumblr.

One of the cool shit about living in Wellington was that during our stay there, the local museum got the preserved carcass of a giant squid. Thing was impressive, to say the least, though while we were looking at it, Sneak said, “I feel bad for it. You get dragged out of the ocean by mistake, and then they stick you in a big jar for people to stare at forever.”

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