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Tempest in a Bee Cup: TheWoolyBumblebee expelled from A Voice for Men for making angry men even angrier

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More drama at A Voice for Men! Kristina Hansen — the excitable FeMRA videoblogger better known as TheWoolybumblebee — has been tossed off the good ship AVFM by Master and Commander Paul Elam for what he calls her “constant public conflicts with elements of our community.”

You can hear her side of the case in the video below. She claims to be shocked — shocked! — to find that Elam expected his contributors to toe his ideological line. And even more shocked to find him making generalizations about women — something, Ms.Bumblebee claims, that makes him no better than the feminists he criticizes!

Yeah, the trouble with ex-AVFMers is that they were dunderheaded enough to have signed up as AVFMers in the first place. (When we last met her here on Man Boobz she was returning a pair of misandric pants to the store, outraged that a tiny portion of the profits would go to help girls facing oppression in the developing world.)

Before you watch the whole video, though — it’s 14 minutes long — you might want some of the backstory. It’s long and messy, too, but I’ll try to keep it  as brief as I can.

First, I should probably note the irony in Elam’s explanation for her dismissal, given that Elam himself is well-known for his own “constant public conflicts” with others in the Men’s Rights movement and the manosphere in general, having launched very public attacks on various others in the past — most notably on Pickup artists — and responding with intemperate anger towards pretty much everyone who even mildly disagrees with him about anything in public.

Heck, at one point he got so annoyed by people disagreeing with him on the Men’s Rights subreddit that he tried to set up his own Men’s Rights Activists subreddit where he could ban the people he disliked; it never took off and he abandoned it.

Elam’s pink-slipping of Ms. Bumblebee is doubly ironic, because one of the issues she’s been involved in “constant public conflicts” about has been MGTOW. (She’s not a fan.)

You might think that wouldn’t be a problem, as A Voice for Men has not exactly been on the best of terms with a big chunk of the MGTOW community for some time. The regulars on MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hub, regularly refer to AVFM as “A Voice for Manginas” and worse; they’re especially offended that Elam lets women — sorry, “cunts” — post there. Elam has responded by denouncing the “MGTOW Forum Fuckwits.” The war of not-so-nice words seems never-ending; for some recent examples on MGTOWforums here and here — and in AVFM’s own forum here.

But Elam apparently still thinks he can somehow charm those MGTOWers who don’t already hate his guts, and he’s been making some efforts to get their attention lately — a fact that has not escaped his non-fans over on MGTOWforums, who have been decidedly unimpressed with his efforts so far.

So Elam was none too happy when Ms. Bumblebee started making videos attacking MGTOWers head on — videos which caused a little firestorm of controvery in the MGTOW world and got MGTOWers even madder at AVFM for putting up with such an evil “wench.”

Ms. Bumblebee has also been saying less than kind things about libertarianism for months on her blog, on YouTube, and on Twitter, where she bluntly declared it a “a cancer within the MRM.”

Turns out that was a bit of a faux pas. Though AVFM pretends to be “apolitical,” and has a few people associated with it who consider themselves liberal, most of the “big names” there  — not just Elam but John “the Other” Hembling, and Karen (GirlWritesWhat) Straughan — pretty obviously lean libertarian.

Indeed, in a not-very-friendly comment on Reddit about Ms. Bumblebee’s departure from AVFM, Straughan suggests that she’s essentially a “a child …  having a tantrum,” who doesn’t appreciate that the Men’s Rights movement is all about “free thinkers and John Galts.” (Yeah, she really did say that.)

She also accuses Ms. B of not reading enough E Belfort Bax — which is, I have to admit, the first time I’ve ever seen anyone accused of that particular crime in a political debate.

In case you’re not yourself a Baxhead, he was an opponent of women’s suffrage perhaps best known for his 1913 essay “The Fraud of Feminism,” a rather obscure piece of writing that’s having a sort of revival amongst a certain segment of the Men’s Rights movement. Indeed, A Voice for Men recently reprinted a portion of Bax’s essay with a glowing and altogether uncritical introduction by Elam himself.

It’s actually rather revealing. A Voice for Men is happy to republish the work of a long dead author who thought that women should be denied the right to vote. But a live woman who doesn’t agree with Elam about libertarianism or MGTOWers — over the side she goes!

Here’s her video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, you could just skip ahead to 5:20 to hear her express her astonishment that Elam would make sweeping generalizations about all women (say it ain’t so!), or to about 7:50 where she sets forth her basic complaint about AVFM and the way she says she was treated by Elam et al.

If you only have a couple of minutes, or limited patience for YouTube videos, at least listen to the excerpts of the testy phone conversation with Elam in which she officially learned she was no longer a part of AVFM; they start at about 10:40.

Ms. B has labeled this video Part 1. I don’t know how many more parts are coming. But I’ll certainly be watching.

For the masochists among you, Elam has put up the entire conversation he had with Ms. B — it’s half an hour long, and I listened to the whole damn thing.  I assume he thinks it makes him look better and her look worse, but, you know, it really, really doesn’t. Unless you’re really into patronizing mansplaining and apologias for angry misogyny amongst MRAs and MGTOWers. He concludes by throwing a little fit and hanging up. Or maybe she hangs up. I can’t tell.

Ms. B., when she can get a word in edgewise, makes a lot of very good points in the call, bluntly and directly calling him on his some of his bullshit; it’s only when she starts going on about the evils of feminism that I remember how warped her worldview really is.

Alongside the video, Elam also posted the email he sent Ms. B dismissing her from AVFM, which confirms that he was indeed pissed off by what he calls her “divisive conduct” towards MGTOWers and all those John Galts of the MRM.

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titianblue
titianblue
9 years ago

Could it be that MRAs, like every other group of people, are not monolith? So they may have any number of reasons for becoming or ceasing to be MRAs. For some of them it may be a temporary phase in the initial misery of a broken relationship. For too many of them, it looks like any excuse to join the abusers’ lobby.

Aruba
Aruba
9 years ago

Perhaps you have already seen this (the story of and ex-MRA):

http://weekwoman.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/seeing-the-feminist-light-an-ex-mra-tells-his-story/

Detached
Detached
9 years ago

[quote]Really rubs me the wrong way. I don’t think ‘good hard work’ can really do wonder for people, especially since I get tired of people telling me if I just try harder to do shit I wouldn’t be depressed…idk if this is making any sense…but that’s how it sounded to me. Maybe if they were working more they’d have less time to hate on the internet? But lots of people chill on the internet in their off time…just not seeing how ‘good hard work’ can help…[/quote]

Actually, I completely understand. For a long, long time I felt pretty down, mostly over regrets and rejections. And I hated, HATED being told, “You really need a girlfriend, pal” or anything like that. And maybe this is a case of us having different personalities, but after a point I realized I should improve my life in the present, make a better future, and maybe then the past mistakes I’ve made won’t matter as much. Getting a job forced me into situations that made me learn about myself and the world, and as such, made me a better person overall. That’s why I put so much stock into work, not just a 9 to 5 job, but work that improves your/someone else’s life (such as DIY projects or soup kitchens). The people you meet and the trails you walk actually have more value than the money you earn. I’ve earn thousands of dollars working for different companies, but earned billions worth in memories and life lessons working with people.

Marie
Marie
9 years ago

@Detached

First, if you want to do blockquotes [blockquote] text [/blockquote] but with < instead of [

Second,

For a long, long time I felt pretty down, mostly over regrets and rejections.

See, my problem isn’t with being rejected, it’s with a chemical imbalance in the brain. But you keep on fucking that chicken.

And maybe this is a case of us having different personalities, but after a point I realized I should improve my life in the present, make a better future, and maybe then the past mistakes I’ve made won’t matter as much

Yeah, because us silly depressed people don’t ever try to improve our lives! Silly me, if only I’d do something instead of being depressed.

Pro tips, asshole (and no, I do not feeling like playing polite with you today):

1) Hard to work when getting up is hard. First step for me was getting some damn anti depressants.
2) It’s cute you think trying to do things has never occurred to me. It has. I do try to. I just finished a job, and am trying to find another. I just don’t like fuckers like you acting like this has never occurred to me. I know. I get fed this shit all the fucking time. Don’t need anymore assholes trying to pass it off like it’s a new idea. It’s not. It’s a very fucking old one.

Getting a job forced me into situations that made me learn about myself and the world, and as such, made me a better person overall

Getting a job let me learn many things, like I’m not ready for an eight hour one again, because by the end I was getting very fucking anxious, and more depressed.

The people you meet and the trails you walk actually have more value than the money you earn

Ignoring how fucking cheesy this is, there are places to meet people besides work.

Now how about you drop this til you get a new shtick, okay cupcake?* 😉

*Anyone who’s not a troll can tell me if I’m being a huge asshole. But I’m just so tired of this shit, hence all the vulgarity, and zero fucks about Detached’s fee-fees.

Aruba
Aruba
9 years ago

@Marie

I too have a chemical imbalance in the brain which mad me suicidal when I was in my early twenties. I also had social phobia and anxiety problems (the latter, I still do). So I get it when you say this: “Hard to work when getting up is hard. First step for me was getting some damn anti depressants.” But I don’t think Detached was being insensitive on purpose. I think everyone has experiences of their own and he was just explaining his, without realizing that social interaction isn’t easy for all of us.

Aruba
Aruba
9 years ago

Maybe his views are limited but I see no reason to be this harsh.

Detached
Detached
9 years ago

See, my problem isn’t with being rejected, it’s with a chemical imbalance in the brain. But you keep on fucking that chicken.

I wasn’t even trying to be mean here. I didn’t realize you meant actual depression, I honestly thought you meant you were just blue. Sorry about that, I really am.

Marie
Marie
9 years ago

@Aruba

Maybe his views are limited but I see no reason to be this harsh.

::Shrugs:: What was harsh besides the vulgarity? I mean, I know I said ‘tell me if I’m being an asshole’ but I’d kind of like a how, instead of just ‘harsh’. I may be being more confrontational than usual because I’m just so tired with this stuff…I don’t know if I’m making any sense…

Marie
Marie
9 years ago

@Detached

I wasn’t even trying to be mean here. I didn’t realize you meant actual depression, I honestly thought you meant you were just blue. Sorry about that, I really am.

Sorry accepted, I suppose :/ Just kinda tired cuz what I said was:

especially since I get tired of people telling me if I just try harder to do shit I wouldn’t be depressed

So, it was kinda actually in there :/ Though I suppose sometimes people do use depressed when they just mean blue, but they really shouldn’t.

Aruba
Aruba
9 years ago

Marie, you called him asshole, and you sounded angry. I think that if that comment were directed to me I would feel sad. I have the habit of trying to be in the skin of other people… I don’t know if it’s a good habit or a bad habit yet. Maybe both.

But you make sense. I know what you’re talking about, I really do. And sometimes I also snap.

Aruba
Aruba
9 years ago

*I don’t know if I used the word “snap” correctly… English is not my first language and I don’t want to mess up

Marie
Marie
9 years ago

@Aruba

I don’t know if ‘snap’ was right either. But yeah, you’re right, it probably would have been better to be more polite. I just tend to get tired of this stuff. I mean, on one hand Detached didn’t mean it in a hurtful way, so reacting angrily wasn’t really the best thing, but on the other hand I just don’t really like feeling like I owe people politeness when they say something like that. Idk if I’m making any sense. I probably should try to un-morning-ify my brain.

Aruba
Aruba
9 years ago

@Marie

Haha, yes you make sense.

(By “snap” I meant that I lose my cool too sometimes)

Briznecko
Briznecko
9 years ago

*Anyone who’s not a troll can tell me if I’m being a huge asshole. But I’m just so tired of this shit, hence all the vulgarity, and zero fucks about Detached’s fee-fees.

I don’t think you’re being harsh Marie. This exchange reminded me of a Captain Awkward post (and of course I can’t find it now), where someone wrote in about being down because of a shitty BF and weight gain. Intially some commenters chimed in with the typcial “how about walking?” “Have you tried eating more fruit?” etc. Those commenters have good intentions, but they don’t realize this is basic shit everyone knows, so no need to repead that ad nauseum.

I don’t have depression, Sir Briz does – guys, he just left for Afghanistan for four months. No guarantee of a good wifi connenction for skype. 🙁 – but he has told me similar frustrations when people try to talk to him about his depression. At one point someone said: “Can’t you just…stop being sad?” UGH!

Aruba
Aruba
9 years ago

@Briznecko

“Can’t you just stop being sad?” At that one I would definitely snap!

I’m sorry for your bf/husband, I hope he gets better soon.

Briznecko
Briznecko
9 years ago

He’s my Bf, sorry that wasn’t clear. We plan on being long term, though! So, maybe someday husband after lots and lots of conversations. 😀

Briznecko
Briznecko
9 years ago

Oh, and he’s not down now. He’s on top of his depression and is doing really good! The only problem is he’ll be away for the next four months and I’m gonna miss the shit out of him 🙁

Kittehserf
9 years ago

Aruba – once an MRA isn’t an MRA any longer, fine. There are a few Manboozers who fit that description, and they’re fine people. But the MRAs we quote here? The ones wallowing in hate? They can get back to us when they’ve decided to rejoin humanity instead of hating half of it. More than half, given what racists, homophobes and trans*phobes they are.

Kittehserf
9 years ago

@Marie – do you like autumn, or would you like to swap your autumn for our summer? That’d balance things out!

Speaking of having tails and ears, did you see the pic I made of Sir’s experiment back in March?

Kittehserf
9 years ago

Aruba, Detached’s comments coming on top of the ones that had a certain “oh poor MRAs” sound to them were a bit much. Like Marie, I’m not sure zie’s here in good faith, either. The “people just need to get a job and make $$$$!” shit is irritating me, too. Hard work =/= satisfying work even when it’s possible to do it. It also doesn’t equal making a living wage. Just ask any waitstaff.

Marie
Marie
9 years ago

@kittehs

@Marie – do you like autumn, or would you like to swap your autumn for our summer? That’d balance things out!

Hmm. I don’t know. I like early autumn/ late spring. Anytime the weather’s over 70 🙂 I actually don’t mind it cold terribly, just not the hugest fan.

And no, I didn’t see the pic. Yay for seeing it now 😀 So jelly of that tail XD

Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

Yeah, after all my fighting with SSI, I am definitely sick of “well maybe if you just tried some sort of work it wouldn’t make you suicidal”. Like no, I will not be improving my life through a job, nor any other endeavor that causes me to get all self-blame when I get too depressed to deal with it.

Kittehserf
9 years ago

Marie – I took a snap of Maddie’s tail for that pic! 😀

Speaking of whom, just got back from the vet for her six-month checkup (she’s very healthy and has lost a smidgin of weight – yay!). My arms are now covered in scratches from trying to get her into her basket, and she had her revenge by taking a dump in the basket on the way up there. Now she’s lying around looking like she’s the one who had to do all the work!

Steve D
Steve D
6 years ago

Picture Jack and Rose on that little bitty board at the end of Titanic. Now put about 20 more people on it. Now give them all axes and let them start chopping it to bits so they don’t have to associate with the people they don’t like. That’s what reading about feuds in the MRA herd is like. Dudes, you don’t have enough people to have feuds.

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