Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
@gnedernutrallanguage
” Wanting parity in education, criminal sentencing, suicide rates, child custody, child support, workplace deaths and many other issues is no more like throwing a tantrum than wanting parity in pay or the few aspects of education men are still dominant in.”
It seems like your gripes aren’t what the mras complain about. They complain about criminal sentencing, but act like its the same for white men and black men(spoiler it’s not). They don’t do anything about suicide rates. The only reason they complain about childcustody is they don’t want to pay child support (ignoring raising the kids is just as expensive, if not ore so, usually). Yet they don’t actually want to raise their own kids. They just think women should shut up and raise the kids with no financial help. They whine about workplace deaths but at the same time don’t want women in those jobs… They just hate women, and any valid points they have (which I do think most of what you said are valid complaints) they turn into another reason to hate women.
If you want women and men to share dangerous jobs, feminism is working on that. We don’t think women are inferior to men, and we do think men shouldn’t have all the dangerous jobs.
If you want men to have more custody of their kids, and it not default on women, feminism is working on that. We don’t think women are naturally better to be care takers, and men not Naturally better at being providers.
And I don’t know enough about the other issues to say for sure, but you sure as hell can do better than the mra.
::posts before loses comment::
@argenti aertheri
“*adds it to zie list* off the top of my head, women attempt suicide at four times the rate men do, but pick methods such as poisoning that don’t have the legality of the methods men use (hanging, guns, etc)”
Fu… Did not know 🙁
“Yes, and if I can find it again WoC are incarcerated at higher rates too. Ignoring the influence of race here is, well, appropriative and fucking racist (saying that all women get lighter sentencing when WoC do not is Not. Cool.)”
I think that’s true… Heard before. Sadly I have zero links…they are all on my computer, which has died.:( so count me as not sure atm
@Marie:
I’d be interested in seeing if genderneuterallanguage is sticking around to look at Argenti’s wonderful data analysis. If not, then xie’s probably just spouting off talking points with no interest in their accuracy or solutions. Which would surprise me greatly*.
* Note: would not surprise me at all
What the fuck? How did you get all of that from just that picture?
The man depicted is an example of an MRA dipshit who thinks that being told to talk somewhere else or change the topic is evidence of lack of regard for men’s rights. That’s so obvious that it’s hard for me to see you as not being extremely disingenuous.
Lol, how about we try to start working to reduce those things as much as possible for everyone instead of trying to create parity for the sake of parity? Especially when the parity you speak of, you know, will cause suffering?
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates01.html
I’m rounding to (per 100,000):
Non-hispanic white 16
Non-Hispanic black 6
Hispanic 7
Native American 17.5
Asian 6
Adds to 52.5
Population wise (census data):
White 78.1%
Black 13.1%
Native American 1.2%
Asian 5.0%
Math time, because the two use different methods to get at the percent of the population that’s Hispanic
Census:
Hispanic or Latino Origin 16.7%
White not Hispanic 63.4%
Assuming that all non-white Hispanic people are black, that makes the percents:
78.1% – 63.4% = 14.7%
16.7% – 14.7% = 2%
Non-hispanic white 63.4%
Non-hispanic black 11.1%
Hispanic 16.7%
Native American 1.2%
Asian 5.0%
(I’m assuming the missing 2.6% is a combo of rounding and having dropped the other racial categories as I lack suicide data for them)
So, suicide rate, in percent of total suicides, by race:
Non-hispanic white 16/52.5 = ~0.30 = 30%
Non-Hispanic black 6/52.5 = ~0.11 = 11%
Hispanic 7/52.5 = ~0.13 = 13%
Native American 17.5/52.5 = ~0.33 = 33%
Asian 6/52.5 = ~0.11 = 11%
Over/under representation, percent of suicides versus percent of population:
Non-hispanic white 30% – 63.4% = -33.4%
Non-hispanic black 11% – 11.1% = -0.1%
Hispanic 13% – 16.7% = -3.7%
Native American 33% – 1.2% = 31.8%
Asian 11% – 5% = 6%
So yeah, any time they’d like to stop appropriating another one that’s far more racial inequity than gender inequity, that’d rock.
For the sake of completeness:
Men 49%
Women 51%
Suicide rate per 100,000
Male 20.67 = ~21/26 = 81%
Female 4.62 = ~5/26 = 19%
Men 81% – 49% = 32%
Women 19% – 51% = -32%
Yes that weirdness does make sense, so yeah, the gender difference is just about the same as the racial difference, but you don’t hear jack squat about how non-Hispanic white people are underrepresented at the same rate that men are over represented (and if you really want math, I’ll do the cross variable analysis)
@Aaliyah:
Makes me wonder exactly what MRAs want when they talk about workplace deaths. Do they want to make dangerous jobs safer? Can’t blame women for that. Do they want women to be in dangerous jobs too? Apparently not, since they don’t want women to intrude on men’s spaces.
What we’re left with is MRAs wanting to use workplace deaths as a beatstick… They want only men in the dangerous jobs (because of course women couldn’t handle it) but then complain about it to justify higher pay for men and try to make women feel bad about stepping out of place.
A couple more of posterity —
Me having it out with NWO on false accusations, previous pages contain some basic rape statistics, next pages contain some classic NWO fail — http://manboobz.com/2012/05/27/artisty-against-misandry-peddles-pure-hate/comment-page-2/#comment-158753
Math on DV murder, including that damnit “women hire hit men” bullshit — http://manboobz.com/2012/12/26/mens-rights-redditor-warns-men-be-careful-with-your-sperm-your-very-freedom-is-at-stake/comment-page-11/#comment-237259
I should probably finish with Tamen’s shit, for completeness, but So. Boring. I don’t really expect to find anything that isn’t “the legal definition of rape does not include men being made to penetrate, so we called that sexually assault // forced sex”
Pecunium — “tamen: And Argenti is more patient with you than I, showing your claim of CDC being “controlled” by the Operational Definition (btw, do you understand what an OD is?) is bullshit.”
Well, you do know how I feel about math ^.^
@Argenti – Women of color are incarcerated at higher rates…they make up 2/3 the women in prison population in the US.
http://www.aclu.org/womens-rights/words-prison-did-you-know
bahumbugi — a citation that isn’t behind a paywall! Thank you!
Argenti – do you have access to peer-reviewed stuff online? I can give you tons and tons of data about women in the prison system, but due to the very nature of the system, you just can’t get clean data. The criminal justice system does affect more men than women, but once women are in the system, they are often more harshly sentenced than men, contrary to all the mrm rhetoric (can’t call it rhetoric, if I were smart I’d cross rhetoric out and write pseudo-archaic psychobabble)…but they’ll just dismiss the feminist hivemind organizations that bother to do the research (ACLU, prisoners’ rights organizations, etc.)
also the ACLU site popped this title up on the sidebar, and i laughed
Well in the 10 posts replying to my several points, I found 4 points worth replying to.
Women do ATTEMPT suicide 4x the rate that men do. This is an issue that needs to be addressed. It does not negate the need to address the need to address men successfully completing suicide at 4x the rate of women.
There are no legal restrictions of the dangerous jobs. For the most part these jobs are desperate for women to comply with EOE laws. It’s not that women can’t get dangerous jobs, it’s that women don’t want the jobs. We can send men with guns to kidnap the women and force the to work, then we would have parity. But that makes parity sound like some form of slavery, and parity is all rainbows and butterflies.
On equality in prisons. Wow, sexism affects blacks more than whites. Who’da thunk it. I mean “intersectionality” isn’t a big thing. No one’s ever heard of that.
Only 1/3 of the 5% that force a judge to choice for them even bother to ask for custody. But hey that 1/3 of 5% that have the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to chase child custody…..they win about 50% of the time. Trying to shame men into being accused of child molestation more often isn’t going to make the situation any better. A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes. Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.
Um, not exactly? I can ask a grad student Very, Very Nicely, but it’s finals week and idk if ze has time. Drop the citations here though, a couple of our commenters do have access, just not me.
Dude, did you see how often out of court agreements result in people getting what they asked for? This really is an issue of not asking (fuck, a third of men want the woman to have sole custody!)
“On equality in prisons. Wow, sexism affects blacks more than whites. Who’da thunk it. I mean “intersectionality” isn’t a big thing. No one’s ever heard of that.”
Go tell the MRM that, they remember that race exists only when it serves them. (Do you want me to start ranting about the obscene rate of murder among trans* WoC? No? Then don’t attempt to claim that feminism isn’t working on the whole intersectionality thing.)
You claimed women are sentenced more often than men, which is straight up not true. Among white women and men, the rates are the same. This is pure racism, not a gender parity issue at all.
Way to ignore all the math on suicide rates and focus on my off the cuff reply to Fade.
Re: Tamen — “The SES surveys examines degrees of coercion used or experienced in sexual activity. All versions of the revised SES measure behavior that meets legal definitions of various sex crimes, with the exception of acts accomplished by verbal coercion not involving threats of physical harm”
22 pages / 1 link left
So… what do you want to do about it? Gun control?
That’s because it would be a form of slavery, dickhead.
Also, something doesn’t have to be illegal for sexism to keep women out. If women face sexual harrassment, disproportionate lack of premotion… that’s on the men, not them. I wouldn’t want to get ina field I knew would have a bunch of dickheads hazing me for my gender unless it was something I really liked.
Male positive view of fatherhood: possible (though I’m assuming you don’t mean the version where people praise men for “babysitting” their own kids because that means really low expectations for men, which I guess you would not like.
But rape culture exists. If you want it to not, work on dismantling it.
Rape culture exists because people worry about rapists’s bright future being ruined when they are convicted of the rape they committed (steubenville). It exists when 3 percent of rapists are convicted, rapists can seek custody in 31 states, politicians think that women can’t get pregnant from rape. When people think that women ask for rape by going out in skimpy clothes, or that people think the only rape is a man jumping out of a bush and forcing himself on a virgen when only 17 percent of rapes are stranger rapes.
It can also negatively affect male victims, by insinuating that if a man is victimized by a woman, he is weak, or that men also want sex. But if you think it doesn’t exist, you are a denying piece of shit.
Oh and the MRM claim is that sexist judges deny men custody. And I missed this gem —
“Trying to shame men into being accused of child molestation more often isn’t going to make the situation any better.”
Feminism agrees! Does not support false accusations! Of course, your wording makes little sense, but I’m assuming you where trying to say that accusing men of child mole station to bias a judge is wrong, and lookie, we agree!
“A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes.”
Um, sure? I already said that feminism wants men to be more involved in raising children…
“Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.”
Unrelated thing is unrelated!
Somebody else give him a Rape Culture 101 link please, I have more of Tamen’s shit to wade through. Thanks!
Ninja’ed!
You rock Fade.
@gendernutrallanguage
“It’s not that women can’t get dangerous jobs, it’s that women don’t want the jobs. We can send men with guns to kidnap the women and force the to work, then we would have parity. But that makes parity sound like some form of slavery, and parity is all rainbows and butterflies.”
This is why there haven’t been women trying to get in the army…oh wait, there have.
Also, every time your solution involves kidnapping people, it’s a signyou are a horrible human being
“If women face sexual harrassment, disproportionate lack of premotion… that’s on the men, not them”
Yes. Seconded and qft
Hmm…
Maybe all those good fathers should start making some noise, then.
Oh wait, I forgot that “male positive view” means “assuming all men are awesome and whining if anyone suggests otherwise.”
Spoken like someone who has no fucking idea what rape culture actually is. There is nothing misandric about pointing out the fact that most sexual aggressors are male. For one, most men aren’t sexual aggressors. And even if it were the case that most men are sexual aggressors, that wouldn’t change the fact that pointing that out isn’t misandric because we don’t oppose men; we oppose rapists, and we focus on men not because we think they are beasts, but because most rapists are men because of the worst of masculine socialization facilitated by the patriarchy.
If anyone has citations on why women tend to choose different methods of suicide than men (I’ve understood there’s a tendency to be thinking of others, i.e., not wanting to leave people a physical mess to clean up, but I have no idea if that’s substantiated), I would appreciate it. Other than access to guns causing a disparity, because men have greater access to guns, and having access to a gun is a huge risk factor for attempting suicide with a firearm (unsurprisingly).
I googled why do women commit suicide with different means than men. here
Evidently on women vs men suicide
they also mentioned women are more likely to seek help, because men see it as an admission of weakness.
So if troll-boy wants to help male suicide, he should work on helping men realize that feelings are not weakness, not blaming women.
I’m gonna do a tiny bit more research later b/c I don’t know if one study is conclusive, but right now I am chillin with my siblings. XD
GNL: There are no legal restrictions of the dangerous jobs. For the most part these jobs are desperate for women to comply with EOE laws. It’s not that women can’t get dangerous jobs, it’s that women don’t want the jobs.
Really? Women aren’t hazed when they try to work construction, pipe-fitting, fire departments?
Got numbers to show how social pressures to not apply factor into that? Care to address things like, “women aren’t capable of leading/innovating/doing physical labor” factor into it (Remember Larry Summers and his, “women can’t do math?” How about Kathy Sierra being hounded out of her work, because she was female)?
Unsupported allegations of bullshit ideas (desperate for women to comply with EOE laws), are not substantive response.
Only 1/3 of the 5% that force a judge to choice for them even bother to ask for custody. But hey that 1/3 of 5% that have the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to chase child custody…..they win about 50% of the time.
Whut? So women are getting custody because they can afford to outspend the men?
Anecdote time. I have a friend who, after a few years after the divorce; in which her husband plead poverty; despite having been the owner of a profitable software firm (it “went bankrupt” during the divorce), got involved with someone. In the intervening time the husband had damn all time for their two sons. Skipped visits, changed plans; had no money for the child support (he was, “unable to find work”).
She and her new partner got married. Decided to move. Suddenly the ex-husband wanted to be involved. Found the money to pay for a lawyer to hale her back to Calif, (thankfully the job she had left was willing to hire her back), and try to get an injunction to force her to live in Calif.
He owed the kids some 14,000 worth of child support (which is a lot less than it sounds: two kids, a bit more than three years of arrears… 14,000/2 = 7,000 per child, 7,000/3 = 2, 333 per child. 2,333. Even if you combine the amounts, that’s $388 per month, for both sons).
He, somehow, found a bit more than 50,000 dollars to contest her moving. One of the things the judge did, when deciding she could leave the state, was point out that the disparity in his interest (i.e. so much to contest custody vs. nothing for regular support of the children) showed a certain lack of real interest in the welfare of the children.
That, combined with his terrible record at actually taking part in their lives (which bothered the kids. The older son in particular wondered why his father didn’t seem to want to spend time with him, wondered why he wasn’t loved any more) is why he lost the case.
So your “the poor fathers can’t afford to contest it”, it is bullshit. Esp. because most divorces don’t have real issues with how the custody is decided.
A “male positive” view of fatherhood is needed to start making changes.
Male positive? I thought you were all about “gender neutrality” and looking to see some, “parity”?
“Shit like “Rape Culture” is actively opposed to a male positive view.”
What the fuck does this mean?
It’s predicate on their being no cultural attitudes which cause rape, and the fear of rape, to be controlling aspects of women’s lives.
You may not like it, but it’s there.
Do yourself a favor; tell us what you think “rape culture” means. I’ll bet you don’t really know; and have some MRM talking point instead.