Most women, it is fair to say, don’t want to be deprived of education; they don’t want to be considered little more than baby-making machines; and they don’t want “independent” women to be maimed or murdered.
But according to the influential manosphere blogger Vox Day, women who object to any of this just don’t know what’s good for them. In one of the most repellant manosphere rants I’ve run across yet, Vox attempts to rebut PZ Myers’ critiques of evolutionary psychology with a series of bizarre and hateful assertions about women, offering his own “scientific” rationales for keeping women down. Is this all somehow satire on his part? He certainly seems sincere.
TRIGGER WARNING for all that follows; Vox explicitly defends the maiming and murder of women.
Vox starts out by arguing that depriving women of education makes solid evolutionary sense:
[E]ducating women is strongly correlated with reducing their disposition and ability to reproduce themselves. Educating them tends to make them evolutionary dead ends. … 40% of German women with college degrees are childless. Does PZ seriously wish to claim that not reproducing is intrinsically beneficial to women?
Instead of being educated, Vox goes on to argue, girls should be married off young so they can start popping out babies:
[R]aising girls with the expectation that their purpose in life is to bear children allows them to pursue marriage at the age of their peak fertility, increase the wage rates of their prospective marital partners, and live in stable, low-crime, homogenous societies that are not demographically dying. It also grants them privileged status, as they alone are able to ensure the continued survival of the society and the species alike. Women are not needed in any profession or occupation except that of child-bearer and child-rearer, and even in the case of the latter, they are only superior, they are not absolutely required.
Next, he defends the practice of throwing acid in the face of “independent” women:
[F]emale independence is strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills. Using the utilitarian metric favored by most atheists, a few acid-burned faces is a small price to pay for lasting marriages, stable families, legitimate children, low levels of debt, strong currencies, affordable housing, homogenous populations, low levels of crime, and demographic stability. If PZ has turned against utilitarianism or the concept of the collective welfare trumping the interests of the individual, I should be fascinated to hear it.
He moves on to honor killings, arguing that they too are good for women, because
female promiscuity and divorce are strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills, from low birth and marriage rates to high levels of illegitimacy.
He offers a similar rationale for female genital mutilation, before launching into this bizarre racist attack on abortion rights:
[F]ar more women are aborted than die as a result of their pregnancies going awry. The very idea that letting a few women die is worse than killing literally millions of unborn women shows that PZ not only isn’t thinking like a scientist, he’s quite clearly not thinking rationally at all. If PZ is going to be intellectually consistent here, then he should be quite willing to support the abortion of all black fetuses, since blacks disproportionately commit murder and 17x more people could be saved by aborting black fetuses than permitting the use of abortion to save the life of a mother. 466 American women die in pregnancy every year whereas 8,012 people died at the hands of black murderers in 2010.
Vox wants “girls” – presumably teenagers — to be married off young and start popping out babies. Yet in his mind female fetuses are “unborn women.”
Despite Vox Day’s repellent ideas about women – and his proud racism – he’s an influential figure in the manosphere, mentioned approvingly and regularly cited by others who present themselves as more moderate voices. It may not be a shock that the reactionary antifeminist blogger Dalrock includes Vox in his blogroll, and cites his work with approval (see here and here for examples). But, astoundingly, he’s also regularly cited approvingly by antifeminist “relationship expert” Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart (see here, here, and here). And she has even written at least one guest post on Vox’s “game blog” Alpha Game.
At this point I suppose I shouldn’t be shocked by any of this. But I still am.
Aurini: Now that I’m back from the more important task of coffee and a chocolate croissant; and before I make some cinnamon spiced chicken biryani, we look at the rest of your folderol.
Perhaps you could provide some examples of University educated women who A) Make a net contribution to society (if their husbands repay the loans, then they’re a net drain) who are engaged in a productive endeavour – government work doesn’t count, and B) who wind up having children at some point at a replacement rate.
Gov’t work doesn’t count as a net contribution to society. I’ll be sure to tell that to Colin Powell and George Washington.
Having children at a replacement rate isn’t a problem. If you hadn’t noticed there are a lot more people on the planet than there were when you were born. There are a lot more people in the US, and we have immigration quotas, so while it’s true that The number of immigrants living in the United States has more than tripled since 1970, from 9.6 million to 28.4 million. As a percentage of the U.S. population, immigrants have more than doubled, from 4.7 percent in 1970 to 10.4 percent in 2000. , it’s also true that there were 78,119,877 more people in the US at the end of those thirty years. The decennial increase in 1970 was 13.4 percent, in 2000 it was 13.1 percent.†
The replacement rate is… 2.1 per woman in a country with decent healthcare (the US is a bit behind the middle of the pack for that, we are probably at about a 2.3). That’s lifetime, not per annum.
So we are doing just fine on the “replacement rate”, not that we’d be doing poorly if we were in a population decline, since we aren’t hurting for total numbers, and certainly aren’t in a genetic bottleneck.
So the second half of your little screed is meaniningless, as the first premise (that we need women to have more children to maintain our present population) is false, and the implicit second premise (that maintaining our present population is essential) is unproven, and probably false.
†I love the US Census in discussions like this, so much data ready to hand. Of course it was compiled by the Gov’t. so all the women who took part were failing to be a net value to society.
Argenti: I know satire isn’t the same as a joke, but lots of internet types seem to think that calling something satire means it’s unassailable as a form.
In the same way someone who make a, “joke” thinks that protects them from being called out for being a douchenozzle.
“This is about 100% more “A Modest Proposal” than the S.C.U.M. Manifesto ever was.”
Who called that Solanas was going to come up? +1 internet to you!
@Quackers, I still haven’t seen the Avengers but I plan to next week. I look forward to all of the fanservice. 🙂
The MRA’s are complaining about what movies might show before they even watch them? Hahahaha! Seriously, if you can’t be assed to watch a superhero movie before complaining about misandry, then it’s time to tone down your persecution complex a bit.
Pecunium — “…but lots of internet types seem to think that calling something satire means it’s unassailable as a form.” — well yes, but I wanted to note that it’s failing on the basic premise of satire. And I want your lunch? it sounds delicious! I can trade you for country peach flavored tea with hazelnut creamer, not as filling as that chicken, but yummy.
Aurini: Your statement, by implying that real men don’t experience trauma, is directly contributing to the underdiagnosis of mental illness among men, the tendency of men to not seek or receive the help they need, and thus to the high rate of substance abuse and completed suicide among men. STFU, you misandrist.
Argenti: I mean, it might have been a private Christian school, in which case that shit’s totally legal. My girlfriend’s ex went to a school like that.
@pecunium
yeah, but he’s only interested in white children, so that changes things a little
Further thoughts on Aurini!
I am amused to discover that a social worker who can’t pay back their loans is a net drain on society, despite doing a thankless and incredibly important task, while a banker who destroys the US economy but can pay back his student loans isn’t.
Furthermore, I DO understand that it’s supposed to be satire. The satirical point is “if you are a utilitarian like Myers you have to support all these things Myers and I don’t support, because they lead to greater utility.” BUT if they don’t actually lead to greater utility, the satire falls apart on the face of it. It’s like a Modest Proposal satirizing a group of people who care deeply about poor Irish children and fund their schooling, housing, and food.
Sharculese: yeah, but he’s only interested in white children, so that changes things a little
Oh….! Is that what he meant? Silly me. the world needs more white children. Mars needs women, and shit like that.
🙂
Argenti: it’s supper. Biryani (even a half assed one like this), isn’t a “toss it together” sort of thing.
Breakfast was a cheese and speck omellete, and lunch was the aforementioned coffee and croissant.
Like ozymandias (and others) said, even if Vox Day was trying to say “huh huh utilitarianism is bs” through a satire of the consequences of utilitarianism it still doesn’t work unless you accept his premises that (a) women’s happiness doesn’t count in a utilitarian scheme and (b) female autonomy leads to unpleasant societies. Those premises are both false, and reveal a lot more about Vox Day than they do PZ or any manboobz commenter.
Anyway, because he believes premises (a) and (b) and gives no indication (either in this piece or his previous writing) that he would disagree with, say acid attacks, this piece also fails as satire on that level. After all, “A Modest Proposal” doesn’t work if you think that Swift actually does believe in eating Irish babies.
You know, I really am a utilitarian. I am the real thing. And, speaking as a utilitarian who is the real thing, I’m going to observe that those who think that Vox Day is in favor of making women into “babymaking machines” are being way too charitable to Vox. That may be what he thinks he’s in favor of, but it’s not so. Machines take time and effort to build and maintain, and not even the goofiest technician would suggest that the way to keep a machine in good working order was to throw acid at it or that the way to keep a bank of machines in good working order was to periodically destroy one of them as an example to the others. Nope. People who build machines and keep them running value their machines to a far greater extent than Vox Day suggests that people in general ought to value women. Notice: I’m not taking on the question of whether he’s right or wrong. I’m just trying to clarify what his postion actually is (since he hasn’t taken the trouble to do that himself).
(Maybe “Vox Day is joking” is the true interpretation of his screed, but if so, any societal recommendation he makes during the course of said screed have to be taken as valueless other than for laughs. Since I myself was not amused, I’m accepting his words at face value.)
I am so sick of this garbage attitude of if you’re not the next Marie Curie, you’re nothin’ being bandied about at women (if in fact, any of these jokers has the decency to acknowledge the contributions she and other lady scientists have made). Seriously, what the actual fuck are you doing Aurini that makes you so goddamn special? What the actual fuck are you or the MRAs contributing to society besides a bunch of hateful bullshit that amounts to little more than a big internet whine?
And this may surprise you, but here’s the real difference between me and you bucko. It isn’t that I’m working on some fiction I hope one day will be a nice contribution, it isn’t my “worthless degrees” (plural, thanks) or whether you’re the inventor of sliced bread – the difference? I’m not enough of an asshole to say that just because you are an asshole who seemingly does nothing but pump more hurt into the world that you do not have the right to live your life on your own terms (excluding the obvious, like harming others).I really don’t care if you never do anything more than post ridiculous bullshit on the internet or if you go on to invent a safe teleportation device. Either way, I won’t presume to say you should or shouldn’t be educated, that your worth is tied up with your ability to look young and arbitrarily “hot”, or your ability to reproduce. And it isn’t because you’re a dude and are destined to make awesome shit happen by virtue of your dudeness. It’s because you’re a human being and I’m not an asshole who thinks I should be able to tell other human beings what to do with their lives.
You would first need to consider what Meyers was trying to demonstrate, that religion harms humanity. Then consider what Day was trying to demonstrate, that Meyers attacks religion not with a scientific approach but with an emotional and sentimental approach. From a strictly scientific point of view, acid thrown in the faces of some women isn’t scientific proof that religion harms humanity as a whole. Meyers is making an appeal to emotion, which was clearly effective judging by the slew of emotional comments here. Day is absolutely successful in demonstrating what he meant to demonstrate. If readers were a little more dispassionate they would recognize that.
ozy — yeah my inability to read negates my outrage (hence mocking myself)
Pecunium — the biryani still sounds delicious, and, indeed, like too much work for my depressed ass (I should probably wash a fork so I can make dehydrated chicken and rice, it won’t be nearly as good) — Mars does need women though! If we’re going to colonize the place we could at least not be misogynists about it. You meant that like a fish needs a bicycle, I know, but I’d go to Mars (I figure the first colony will basically risk becoming a suicide mission, so they’re going to need some crazy for that to work).
yeah female dominated jobs are so worthless lets see:
Teachers(nope don’t need any of those)
Nurses(completely useless, no one ever gets sick or injured)
Dentel Hygenists(no one ever needs their teeth cleaned)
Social Workers/consolurs (helping people is always wrong!)
Secretarys(they do nothing but eat bon bons all day! They don’t keep office life running smootly)
not to mention pretty much every job out there keeps society affloat and running…..I am really getting sick of this unless your an inventor or coal miner you are basically a leech off of society!
Also cool it with the it’s satire…and just own up to your hateful views…it is really pathetic and an insult to actual satire
I also love the implication that no matter what work a dude does, it’s super duper important work. If a dude cleans up shit it’s all, well, we need someone to clean the toilets and what a good job he does and good for him being all bootstrappy! But if a woman is someone who does a lot of the very unglamorous, behind the scenes shit office work, she’s worthless. No double standards there at all.
Ever been in an office on a day when the secretary is gone? It’s absolute chaos.
I would like to see these anti-government types put their money where their mouths are and live without ANY government assistance. I bet they’d cave when they’re up to their ankles in poo, or their car fell down a pothole, or they run out of candles, or…
Lets face it, without government, we wouldn’t have money which powers that free market they love so much.
Don’t knock government or its workers too much.
Exactly, Discordia. Even men working in coal mines depend upon the services from not only other men, but also the services of women. If any of those coal miners and plumbers are also fathers, they more than likely depend upon a wife, girlfriend, mom, or female childcare worker to take care of their children so that they are able to work. I know there are some stay at home dads and some men working in daycares, but the majority of childcare is still done by women. It wouldn’t be possible for those men to what they did if they had to bring babies to work every day.
“I am really getting sick of this unless your an inventor or coal miner you are basically a leech off of society!”
Except even if they are coal miners…”Secretarys(they do nothing but eat bon bons all day! They don’t keep office life running smootly)”…mail the damned bills to customers and the like!
My last job was at a law firm, 3 male lawyers and an all female support staff (4-5) — if male lawyers are so competent and useful, why do they need >1 woman each to run a law firm? (Um, in practice, because the office manager was a terrible human being who made that office a miserable place to work, without her they probably could have a 1:1 ratio)
I don’t think MRA’s are even implying that. Their belief seems to be that men don’t have to prove that they provide a net gain, because they are the default sex, and civilization belongs to them, and exists for them to consume. Women, by contrast, are mere guests or interlopers, who must justify their existence by providing sexytimes, serving as incubators and making sammiches. Thus, any woman who cannot conclusively prove that the world would absolutely collapse in her absence is a leech who deserves to have acid thrown in her face.
Dan: …But throwing acid on women’s faces DOES cause a decrease in utility, and hence is harmful. Uh, duh?
I don’t think those anti-government people realize how vulnerable they are in life, and how they could end up needing help from others at any time. Even someone who has their finances and life in perfect order can end up needing a hand up after becoming injured or sick. If someone lives long enough, they will also become elderly and need benefits and medical care, just as they provide it for others while they are still young and abled.
Many of those same people benefited from a public education, too. It makes me sick when they turn around and attack the public schools that made their own success possible. I guess it’s an attitude of “Fuck you, Jack, I got mine”. They also benefit from the contributions made to society from other people who were also educated in public schools.
Most people would need at least some kind of government help during and after a natural disaster, too, no matter how well insured they are. Without the city, state, and federal government, Joplin wouldn’t be where it is today. Look at how much the National Guard did to rescue people and maintain order in the immediate aftermath. Look at how much FEMA helped uninsured and underinsured people get back on their feet. Private charities and individuals have done a lot, but they can’t do everything. No matter where someone lives, there is a possibility of some type of disaster, like a flood, hurricane, earthquake, or wild fire. It’s wrong to think “That will never happen to me” because nobody knows that for sure.
Amused, yeah, that’s probably more accurate. And even more depressing. Fuck.
Kendra,
Yeah, I think my favorite (both in terms of hilarity, because OMG clueless, but also in terms of OMG you are an asshole) is this one from Glenn Beck http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/23/stewart-to-glenn-beck-you_n_472826.html. He talks about how he didn’t have to finish college, he got his “college education” for “free” from the public library because according to him, “books are free!”
Makes my librarian head explode. Dude who tries to sell his shit books to shmucks claiming books are free? No cognitive dissonance there. No siree. I was half tempted to say we ought to stop buying his books on principle, but won’t because, info to the public, etc. Also, our staff got a pretty good kick out of making fun of some of the passages in his ridiculous books.
But even to people who don’t care about books (and don’t get me started on the “you can find whatever you want yourself on the internet these days”, people) like, if all you care about is your own ass, if you are unlucky enough to be in a natural disaster in a place where no government assistance exists, you are very probably fucked.