The MGTOWs were nestled all snug in their beds, while visions of sexbots danced in their heads

I see that this thread has continued while I was asleep! I’m a bit of a mess this morning, so please take my comments with a heapin’ helpin’ of salt.

I don’t think you’re a troll, Mrs. Chad. I mean, saying “You aren’t the only one who’s hurting” to kupo was sorta beyond the pale – kupo didn’t deserve that at all! – but I don’t think that was you trolling. Maybe an over-reaction?

I think I found that ‘seed’ of the PUA game inside of the game you’re playing. Both you and they are treating other people as means to an end instead of ends themselves when you’re ‘playing the game’ – playthings and chew-toys instead of people with desires and motivations. The difference is that you’re seeking them out specifically, whereas they’re looking for anyone. I think that’s the point that makes me hesitant about what you’re doing, that it’s mimicking their immorality back at them.

I suppose that if you keep it focused on them, then it’s not a big deal – taste of their own medicine and whatnot. Problem is that, in doing this, you’re training yourself to be manipulative. Those behaviours will become familiar and instinctual; those thoughts and beliefs will start to blur into your own. That’s what I’m worried about. I’m double worried by the fact that you say you’re gonna keep doing it, regardless. That’s a pretty clear sign that you may have already started taking in some of that poison.

I can’t diagnose things over the internet; I have no idea what you think or how you interact with people overall. I do know how brains work in some small way, though, and I’m worried about the direction you’re training yourself to go. It doesn’t seem like a great destination from here.

Apologies! Like I said, I’m cloudy today, and am probably getting a bit overblown on this. Have fun, but be careful.

Other stuff; I’m glad you recovered from your neurological problem so well! That’s always a tough mountain to climb. Same with your other struggles, and thank you for sharing them. That’s never easy. You sound like a very strong person, and it serves you well.

As for the ‘my house is a woman’s shelter’ thing; it’s very good of you to help others like that! If it’s too much to bear, there are lots of DV and Woman’s shelters out there. Call some up and say hi to get familiar, perhaps, so that if you have a friend who needs help, you can get them there instead of taking them in.

Back to bed with me, I think.

@Mrs Chad

I am fluent in German, so Scildfreja looks a lot like Schildfrau to me, but I was not sure which language. Norwegian, you say?

I think it may actually be Norse in fact.

You are correct about me only mentioning male/female as genders. However, some people could also be offended if I made reference to being transgendered. I felt leaving transgendered out of it was actually more appropriate.

BZZZTT!!!!! First, it’s trans, trans*, or transgender, not transgendered if you please. Secondly, many trans people are, in fact, men or women, and you should refer to them as such. Third, local etiquette favours inclusiveness, including towards our non-binary commenters.

This reminds me: Can anyone tell me how to pronounce ”zhe”? Or offer some other gender-neutral term?

@PoM
Ah, thanks! Glad I didn’t cause any upset.

@Makroth
I pronounce it “zee”, like the American English pronunciation of the letter ‘z’. I usually default to ‘they’ in spoken conversation, though. It’s comfortable linguistically and more people understand it.

@Dali

Oh, if you’re wanting the pics of my ass too, you only have to ask… :3

Never asking you for a damn thing ever again. Learned my lesson:
‘That nightshirt sounds cute, what’s it look like?’
‘Something like this ?’
*brain overloads*
Not gonna say no tho. Has been, is now, and shall ever remain your call, darlin

I recalled that you’d mentioned previous entanglements with ladies, and being male, and not ever mentioning closets or boyfriends

No girlfriends, no boyfriends. Some… entangling in high school, but not ‘all the way’…

I kinda made a bit of an assumption. So my bad again there

Haha, I’ll live

Perhaps demisexual or gray[a]sexual might suit you?

Maybe… The A spectrum seems a lot more muddled/vague then the other ones. I’ll figure it out. Eventually 🙂

I think it would be a lot less so if society weren’t so uptight and rigid about matters of sex and sexuality (and gender, for that matter)

Amen, sista

You’re doing ok so far

Thanks

I wanted to learn to read Beowulf in the original

We did a few paragraphs of that in school. I thought German class would help. Not even remotely 😀

dawww

@Dali

If you send a note to my nym at gmx.us, I’d be happy to arrange something though

Well, if the lady insists… I’ll think about it, eh?

Anytime you’d like to change that, let me know; I’m sure I can help out. :3

You’d be waiting a long ass time. But thanks for saying anyway :3

I found it quite useful, myself, although I never was any good at German

So cool! 🙂

@Scildfreja
Feel better!

@Mrs. C
I agree with Scildfreja that you’re training your mind to go in a certain direction.

And I’ll add that you seem to think that you’re accomplishing something by toying with PUAs. I disagree. The only way to show the way to ethical behavior is to exemplify ethical behavior.

@Dali

I may continue to hope (and probably flirt), if you don’t object

No objections. Any time… just maybe not all the time. Keep the magic alive, ya know? 🙂

Re: Our guest
What strikes me a bit, and tell me to shut up if I’m analyzing too much, is that she seems to want someone to say what she’s doing is good. Not that we don’t have a problem with it, but that it’s a moral positive…
Don’t have anything else to add except that Scildfreja is right about the whole brain training thing. As always ?

@Dali

I hope you’ve had fun so far at least, and enjoyed the pictures as much as I did taking them ?

1)Yes, and 2)Hell yeah

@Mrs. Chad Skyboomrooster
I really like you, you’re like me but on the opposite side of this unfortunate conflict. Someone with socially predatory skills and instincts, who cares about how they choose to cause harm and puts some effort into figuring out when it is ethical to attack and obfuscate. I will learn much from your posts.

I do not think you are being unethical and I have a lot of respect for how you are doing this. I have some thoughts about your strategy, it’s very fascinating to me since you are “a shark of the other ocean” when it comes to social context ;). I do social conflict and enjoy it as well, so in my own way and context I dissect the behavior of people acting predatory and find similar means of dealing with them.

Anyway, I wanted to respond a bit further about the empathy/sympathy thing for the Manosphere. I absolutely see what Political Madness is saying, and I think I should have said I can “empathize” with these men, rather than sympathize. I said the opposite of what I meant.

I screw that pair up from time to time myself, and a lot of similar things with a self-other characteristic or other polarity (Like Irony, I have a hard time imagining irony but I know it when I see it strangely).

Now, when I say I can empathize with them, it is very much tied to a particular type of misandering I take great pleasure in. It’s something I mastered by the time I was about 25 (I’m 43 now) and have only been able to snare bigger and bigger game as I’ve gotten older. I’ve recently been having a moral and ethical dilemma about this game I play with misogynists in the “meat space,” so Political Madness’s post gave me the opportunity to really come to a conclusion on whether I am doing something unethical.

A rational use of misandering, interesting. If we are going with literal “hate and contempt towards men” I can imagine the sudden uptick in MRA’s appropriating messages about “hate speech”*, fortunately that’s mostly political slogan since the problems only come up in what one does with hate.
*I have science pedant problems with “hate speech” or things like “spreading hate”. Emotions don’t work like that, but the political usefulness is set, fortunately language evolves.

The contempt is well deserved. These people are trying to manipulate others and you have the skill to do something about it. It’s a justifiable means of creating teaching lessons for people taking advantage of how society is set up so they can be predators. Also since society does not have broadly agreed upon customs for a lot of social aggression you are in the clear since they get to do it too.

Would you have some thoughts about the differences between your misandering, and equally legitimate social attacks on non-men who are acting like predators with shitty social morals and ethics? (The things that makes it specific to these men taking advantage of the world we live in).

To make a long story short, I am a very quick study and was learning how to run countergame to the PUA “game” by the time I was 22. Had it down pat by 25. This was before the internet, so I learned the PUA game through observation and discovery. These guys became a logic puzzle to me. (I do really enjoy solving logic problems, which is probably why I ended up studying linguistics.)

So socially hunting down PUA predators by their own methods turned on them? Perfect symmetry, morally neutral at the species level and morally good in today’s world.

So, around 22 I started hiding my being a feminist and also transforming my outward appearance into the closest thing I can be genetically to the kind of object men like to look at. For two reasons: 1) I wanted to attract as many potential mates (and by “mate” I DO mean sex partner) as possible, 2) I realized that looking like the typical easy target for PUAs/misogynists put me in an excellent position to fuck with their heads.

So if fun does not happen you still get fun? That is very convenient.

The rest is just setting the bait, which might have really minor issues if you are wearing things that you don’t actually like to wear. But with all of the guys I hear complaining about what they “have to do” to enjoy casual sex this one might be balanced too (I’m still thinking this one over).

Now, why would I want to fuck with their heads? Well, I have always been the kind of person who fights for the underdog. In this case, I see women who are less suspecting, maybe less intelligent, or too young and inexperienced to know the difference (which I once was) as the underdog. I see my game as upping the ante on the risks of playing the PUA game on women.

This is where my empathy comes in. I empathize with them to put myself in their shoes. The more I can see things from their perspective, the more I can do a mind fuck on them. This is where I am conflicted ethically. Am I doing something unethical?

As long as you have rules for the mind-fucks the only worry are the mistakes you learn from. As an example my social aggression is constrained by a lot of defensive limitations, it’s in my nature to be literally OCD about social rules and aggression (it’s involved in some social isolation I’m trying to deal with, but there are benefits too). Some of those rules get suspended in a context specific manner that mostly have to do with aggression used on myself or another person. But that’s coming from someone with Tourette’s Syndrome so I’m a lot more obsessive and sometimes pedantic about this stuff than most people (I loathe the term “lying by omission”, which is itself a lie because it’s the opposite of lying).

There is a difference between a regular guy who is trying to flirt with me and a PUA. A regular non-PUA who is hitting on me, but I am not interested, does not get the mind fuck treatment. Instead, I give him a very gentle let down and he fades out. The non-PUA I AM interested in just might get lucky!! (Already told ya’ll that I cock-a-doodly-do enjoy that cock carousel.)

You spend time learning the behavior of the predators you are concerned with and let that inform who should not get manipulated. This is ethical.

It’s the guy who ignores my rebuffs to his advances and starts pulling PUA tactics on me that gets the mind fuck treatment. He’s the guy who ignores my trying to shake him off gently and then pulls a “neg” on me. Once the “neg” happens, my inner Maneater wakes up and starts listening. I will ignore the first neg and let him off the hook by not giving him positive responses. If he pulls a second move to try to initiate “approval-seeking” behavior from me, I will still let it go and continue to try to shake him off gently. If he pulls a THIRD tactical PUA move, the gloves come off, and my claws come out.

I would even call this a scientific approach with a statistical heuristic that I use too. One is an occurrence, two might be a coincidence, three is when you can talk patterns. I would enjoy watching you do this.

Now, getting mad at him and calling him a jerk will only feed his ego and prove women are just assholes who are out to humiliate men who approach them. So, I do not indicate that the gloves have come off. Instead, I start doing approval seeking behavior. (Sneaky? Yes. But isn’t he being sneaky? Yes.) This approval-seeking behavior also serves as a “checks and balances” move. If he becomes “embiggened” or emboldened by my approval seeking behavior, he is a confirmed POS PUA.

He looking to see if the dominance display took, and you wriggle your worm.

Am I doing something unethical by pretending the PUA’s tactics are working on me? Is it wrong of me to pretend to seek his approval and let him push into my boundaries? (Except in my game, he’s not pushing into my boundaries at all. I am only giving him outward indication that what he is doing is working.) For example, an approval-seeking move I use is giving a hurt facial expression when he “negs” me and also giving him submissive body language, e.g., bowing my head down. Then I will start being more responsive to talking to him. Am I a big bad meanie for this?? I mean, I already let him off the hook twice before engaging in the game.

At a one-on-one level this would be neutral since you are responding tit-for-tat (which is also a neutral since that loopy bit of psychology also leads to reciprocated positive things). I would call it a good given the social conflicts this site addresses.

Then, as he tries to push further into my boundaries by being overly aggressive with touching me and making sexual innuendos, I’ll switch from approval seeking behavior to getting a bit “riddler” with him. Meaning, I start setting logic traps in our conversation and giving him intermittent quick “flashes” of being onto his game. But I always follow the quick “flash” with some more approval-seeking behavior. Lather, rinse, repeat.

This is meant to confuse him. [Ha! I got this one in the bag! Wait? What did she just say? Oh, she’s seeking my approval again! It’s working!] Let’s call it what it is: counter striking with “dread.” Basically I run hot and then send a very quick cold flash. Then I go back to seeming like I’m running hot.

I’m sure their “game” works the same, again a social neutral-to-good depending on your sociopolitics. I do similar things with people acting aggressively in my “troll hunting”. It’s one of those “for the world we want eventually” things that only require different ethics if the social bias changes (maybe there will be “social conflict sports” to channel the instincts then).

This game can go on for a half hour, a few hours or sometimes longer (basically as long as I am amused). My end game entails me revealing the game to him and his face dropping. He will normally voluntarily get up and leave me alone. In some cases, he will turn around and try to get me to seek HIS approval, which is a delicious temptation, but the game is already over. Check mate.

This is where you go above and beyond in my opinion. You sympathize enough that you tell them which allows them the opportunity to learn from it. I imagine some have reacted quite badly. In my case when relevant I’m honest about the fact that I comment more for the audience than the person when I’m arguing against for certain types of people.

In my opinion, PUAs don’t have much risk in playing the games they play. If he is successful, he has taken advantage of someone who didn’t know any better. No sport in that. (IMO, also why they only like females between the ages of 16-25.) If he is unsuccessful, the woman sees right through him and tells him to “beat it.” I happen to be a woman who sees through it and delights in running countergame. I think they expect ALL women who see through it to simply walk away. I don’t. I play fuckin’ hardball.

That hilarious post on WHTM about the Red Pills figuring out that women read the internet and will avoid you if they know you are a Red Pill is testament to their ignorance of women who “know.” It seems to me the PUA game is a low-risk game for them if the savvy women will simply avoid them. It’s also funny that they seem to think women didn’t know about this shit before the internet came along.

One of the downfalls of this manly flavor of bigot will be their resistance to a deeper understanding of other kinds of people. Of course there are predators that like to prey on predators, and they are likely blind to the thought of someone like you who is good at social conflict because of all the things society does to deal with aggressive non-men.

I mastered the counterstrike game before the internet became ubiquitous. As such, when really young PUAs try to run game on me, I’ll play for about 10 minutes and cut him loose by physically removing myself from his vicinity. There’s no sport in me running countergame on an inexperienced PUA. I like to play with the more dangerous ones, and since I am older now, the more dangerous ones tend to be older, experienced, and highly dangerous misogynists.

I would be fascinated by your stories here. My own experience here is driving me to some strange and difficult places.

I’ve already decided this site is a place for SJWs.

I also have a master’s degree in linguistics.

Have fun kids.