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MRAs: The way to defeat feminism is not through debate but by “inflicting … pain” on feminists.

Men's Rights "Activism"

What can you do when you realize that you’re losing the war of ideas? You can rethink some or all of your ideas, seriously considering the unnerving possibility that you might be, well, wrong. You can reconsider how you present your ideas.

Or you can give up on ideas entirely, and attempt to pressure or harass or even terrorize others into some form of surrender. That’s what the the uber-radical Weathermen did in the 1960s and 70s, turning first to violent direct action in the aptly named “days of rage” and then to bombs when the revolution that many in the New Left had been prophesying failed to materialize. That’s what the anti-abortion movement has been doing for decades now, with some in the movement harassing women trying to get abortions while more radical antis bomb clinics and kill doctors. .

And now we’re seeing rhetoric from Men’s Rights Activists that suggests some in that movement may also be giving up on talk. Consider A Voice for Men’s Paul Elam, who declared in a fundraising letter a couple of months back that:

Progress for men will not be gained by debate, reason or typical channels of grievance available to segments of the population that the world actually gives a damn about. The progress we need will only be realized by inflicting enough pain on the agents of hate, in public view, that it literally shocks society out of its current coma.

Elam is – presumably deliberately — vague about what exactly he means when he talks about “inflicting … pain,” and as far as I know he has never explicitly endorsed violence. But he has spoken openly about “stalking” individual feminists and otherwise “fucking their shit up” by, among other things, posting personal information about them on the AVfM-sponsored site Register-Her.com for all would be vigilantes to see. And in the “activism” section of his website he has reprinted a manifesto explicitly calling for the firebombing of courthouses and police stations.

Elam isn’t the only MRA who has officially given up on “debate and reason” in favor of “inflicting … pain” on feminists. The “counter-feminist” wannabe philosopher who calls himself Fidelbogen makes a similar argument in a recent post on his blog:

Feminism is your enemy, and the obligation to treat feminists as fellow human beings is officially waived. They are not fellow human beings, they are ALIENS.

Dehumanizing the enemy always a good start.

[L]et’s not hear any crap about so-called “hate speech”. You see, there is simply no way that you can resist evil, denounce tyranny, or call pernicious things by their right names, without crossing a fine line into “hate speech” or something very like it. Extremism against a bully is no vice, and since bullies have their own moral economy, you are entitled to pay them in their own coin.

It’s not hate speech if you really do hate them?

The important thing to understand about the feminists is, that they will not change their outward behavior unless social heat and pressure are inflicted upon them.

Fidelbogen, a sometime contributor to A Voice for Men, is also vague about what exactly he means by this “social heat and pressure.” He continues:

What, do you think they will stop what they are doing just because somebody intellectually convinces them they are mistaken? They will do no such thing, because they are people with an agenda who know they are “right”, and they lack the gift to see themselves as the rest of the world sees them.

IRONY ALERT. IRONY ALERT.

Over on Reddit, meanwhile, the charming JeremiahMRA – who used to post comments here as Things Are Bad – thinks the “inflict pain” policy should be extended to all women, any time they engage in “bad behavior.” Responding to a poster asking how to handle a disagreement with his mother, he explained his theory in (sometimes redundant) detail, receiving several dozen net upvotes for his post:

The ONLY way you change women’s bad behavior is by punishing them if they won’t start acting like adults. …

The only way you change a woman’s bad behavior is by making sure they know it hurts them. …

Reasoning with her will not work. The only answer is to use the power he has as her SON to threaten to hurt her emotionally. Women are emotional creatures. Nothing else will work. This is what it means to be a man: you do what you have to do so that things will be better in the end, even if you don’t like it. …

It isn’t about convincing her what’s right, it’s about showing her she will suffer if she doesn’t do what’s right. That is the only thing that will work.

The Men’s Rights Movement likes to pretend that is it a civil rights movement. But threats, harassment, hate speech, and emotional blackmail aren’t the tactics of a legitimate civil rights movement. These are the tactics of angry narcissists clinging to retrograde prejudices, who have given up on the war of ideas because on some level they know that history is against them, and that they will never win.

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pillowinhell
pillowinhell
10 years ago

“please baby, we haven’t been intimate in almost 2 weeks”

Who the fuck defines this as rape??? Or even nagging? Many rape victims don’t even call their rape a rape for Christs sake! Even though what happened to them meets the legal requirements defining rape. So no, I don’t see a “please baby” making the definition of rape in peoples eyes either.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Roberta:

Yes I do, as in I do not think it is rape. Words are fun…

Roberta Sandolval (@RobertaSandolva)

I know, that was a joke.

Well, it’s good to know you wont call the police the next time your partner asks you to sleep with them. Though plenty of feminists would.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

It would be rather odd for me to go on a rant about how nobody thinks that saying please makes sex rape, the go on to say that it makes sex rape…

Anyway. Rhetoric. Justify. Fool. So on.

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

Though plenty of feminists would.

You know repeating a lie doesn’t make it true, right?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Roberta:

Well, it’s good to know you wont call the police the next time your partner asks you to sleep with them. Though plenty of feminists would.

*head a-splode*

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
10 years ago

Shucks, I’ve been sent to moderation. Roberta, you’ve completely misunderstood the idea of enthusiastic consent. There’s nothing wrong with asking, as long as you make it clear that a simple “no” is okay.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
10 years ago

So…now we’re back to imaginary feminists. Good to know.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Roberta:

That and the dangerous idea that any sex experienced as negative or regretted after the fact is rape.

“enthusiastic consent” advocates would call that rape. Because even if the woman consents she isn’t enthusiastic enough about it.

Well, it’s good to know you wont call the police the next time your partner asks you to sleep with them. Though plenty of feminists would.

Please, in all for seriousness, please justify these statements with a quote, a post, a link… anything. Because continuing to repeat this shows that you have no clue what “enthusiastic consent” advocates are on about, and you’ve bought into the rape apologia that rape victims just wanted to get back at someone they regretted sleeping with.

Roberta Sandolval (@RobertaSandolva)

If that’s true then you should really use a different word. “Enthusiastic” is sure to create a lot of misunderstandings.

What do you mean by “okay” exactly. So if you’re visibly disappointed or upset after being rejected, thats coercion in your view? What if you break up with your partner because you’re sexually unsatisfied? What if you say “please” after hearing a no, should that be punishable with 10 years in prison in your view?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Though plenty of feminists would.

I bet if you polled at the peeps on here who are feminists and willing to have sex with the adorable Kirby, you would find that if Kirby asked them “Would you please have sex with me” NOT ONE OF THEM WOULD SAY IT IS ANYWHERE CLOSE TO RAPE.

Good lord what a troll.

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

I see we have yet another poster arguing about all the horrible rape accusations that only happen inside hir imagination.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
10 years ago

Where did that post go when I had to 101 the last person who refused to understand what consent is about?

Roberta Sandolval (@RobertaSandolva)

I’m well aware of what consent is about, legally? What I’m trying to understand is your view of consent.

Please answer the questions I posed.

blitzgal
10 years ago

The gradual erosion of due process (especially on college campuses)

Again, as an attorney, you know that administrative hearings on college campuses are not courts. The “accused” is not facing jail time. He or she is facing administrative disciplinary consequences that run the gamut from having to write a paper to suspension or expulsion from the school. When you continue to use legal terms like “due process” when you know you are not talking about court proceedings, it implies that at the very least you are being disingenuous in your arguments.

katz
10 years ago

You know repeating a lie doesn’t make it true, right?

She’s a lawyer. (I just can’t resist! It’s even more tempting than making Brave New World references to PUAs!)

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

How about you cite any of the absurd claims you’ve made first?

Roberta Sandolval (@RobertaSandolva)

@blitzgal

True, but the US supreme court has ruled that public universities must provide due process to students accused of conduct violations.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

I see your game Roberta… Make absurd claims, don’t respond to people asking you to justify them, claim common ground when we don’t match the straw-feminists in your head, then confuse the issue more by pretending that you really just wanted to know what we think all along!

Stop apologizing for rape now.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Holy fuck, between Roberta regular trolling, complete with demanding answers, and Ape Man tone-trolling, this thread has gotten weird.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
10 years ago

I would have sex with Kirby if zie wore this shirt

http://mimg.ugo.com/201009/59877/cuts/kirby_480x640.bmp

Viscaria
Viscaria
10 years ago

Wow, Imaginary MRA Mind-Feminists really are scary! I’m awful glad they’re not fucking real.

If that’s true then you should really use a different word. “Enthusiastic” is sure to create a lot of misunderstandings.

I actually think totally misrepresenting feminist notions of consent creates misunderstandings…

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

@Crumbelievable:

D’aawwwwwwwwww :3

I don’t usually wear shirts with phrases on them, but I could totally make an exception for this one.

cloudiah
10 years ago

@Roberta:

“.That and the dangerous idea that any sex experienced as negative or regretted after the fact is rape.”

“‘enthusiastic consent’ advocates would call that rape. Because even if the woman consents she isn’t enthusiastic enough about it.”

“Well, it’s good to know you wont call the police the next time your partner asks you to sleep with them. Though plenty of feminists would.”

Please, in all for seriousness, please justify these statements with a quote, a post, a link… anything. Because continuing to repeat this shows that you have no clue what “enthusiastic consent” advocates are on about, and you’ve bought into the rape apologia that rape victims just wanted to get back at someone they regretted sleeping with.

Roberta, we’re still waiting. This is not a good way to argue your case.

no more mr nice guy
10 years ago

@Shadow:

I don’t think NMMNG’s diagnosing asexuals as schizoid, so much as he is IDing most schizoids as asexual. Which is still problematic for all the reasons that DSC said, so I’m not defending the statement, just saying you may have misread it. I have not seen anything linking schizophrenia to asexuality myself, so I’m pretty skeptical of his claim as well.

Go to any schizoid personality disorder forum and tell them their mental illness is a joke and there are no asexual people among them and see what they will answer you :

http://www.psychforums.com/schizoid-personality/

It’s the last time I talk about it. There are people like Rush Limbaugh here.

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