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antifeminism misandry misogyny MRA rape rapey reddit threats

Why “F*cking Their Sh*t Up” is f*cked up.

Here’s a picture someone posted to Reddit about a day ago:

Found on Reddit.

The general consensus amongst Redditors who saw the post was that it was hilarious. At last count, the post had gotten 1,157 up votes and 318 down votes, giving it 830 net upvotes. That’s a shitload, even for Reddit; it’s gotten more net upvotes than all but one of the posts currently on the front page of the subreddit (r/vertical) it was posted in.

It’s also pretty fucking offensive — a rape joke, a murder-of-women joke, and a necrophilia joke all rolled into one. Sure, it’s a “joke,” but it wouldn’t be hard to make the argument that pictures like this one, which make violence against women into a joke, can actually serve to encourage such violence.

If you did believe this, what would be the appropriate reaction to such a picture? You could post critical remarks about it in the comments section for the post on Reddit. You could post about it in ShitRedditSays, a subreddit devoted to ferreting out misogyny and racism and other bigotries on Reddit. You could post about it on your blog.

Or you could declare the picture an “unambiguous call for murder” and the person responsible for it to be a ” depraved and murderous male supremacist.” You could offer a reward for information on that person’s real identity, and post that person’s personal information — including their phone number, their place of employment, their home address — online. And if someone points out that posting such information might lead to this person being physically harmed or even killed, you could say: I don’t give a shit.

But that would be wrong.

It would also be terribly time-consuming, because crap like this gets posted to Reddit all the fucking time.

The proper response to speech you don’t like, however vile you think it is,  isn’t violence or harassment, but more speech.

If what someone says goes beyond the bounds of free speech, you have other options. If someone threatens you personally, in a posting on the internet or by letter or email or phone call, you have the right to (and you should) report them to the proper authorities. If someone threatens you physically, you have the right to defend yourself.

But a misogynistic picture on the internet is not a threat to you. Nor is a misandrist video. These things are challenges — and in many ways opportunities — for you to make your case against hate. Responding to shit you don’t like on the internet with harassment and threats — implicit or explicit — of violence? That is hate.

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CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Well, she did intend to kill Warhol, so I would count her as at least intentionally murderous. but yeah, mental illness plus petty personal motivations often leads to attempts at hurting other people. Solanos wasn’t labelled as feminist until after the fact, by her publisher.

I didn’t realise that Daly had died. Even while she was alive, there wasn’t a lot of support for her outside of extreme radfem circles. Oddly enough, when you start talking about killing lots of people most readers tend to find that offputting.

It is interesting to me that Daly and Heart share the strong religious background (Heart used to be a big name in the Quiverfull movement). The few lesbian separatists I’ve seen in recent years have mostly hung out on her blog, where their main focus seems to be hating trans women. There’s a reason they’re clustering like that – most feminists blogs don’t welcome their kind of ideas.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Since when is Sharon Osborne a feminist? Do you just decide that a woman is a feminist whenever she says something you find offensive?

It’s funny that you consider trolling feminist blogs to be working to move the MRM away from its violent tendencies. How is that supposed to work, exactly?

Also you realise that we all see right through the disengenous tone, right? I wouldn’t want you to waste your time thinking that it would be an effective rhetorical tactic.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

The few lesbian separatists I’ve seen in recent years have mostly hung out on her blog, where their main focus seems to be hating trans women. There’s a reason they’re clustering like that – most feminists blogs don’t welcome their kind of ideas.

If that’s true, I stand corrected on a previous position, I apparently do have a problem with some lesbian separatists then. I mean it’s not a workable idea but I’ve never been comfortable treating actual marginalized people wanting to opt out of the entire system that fucks them over as wrong. But if they’ve got transphobes, well, that’s an actual problem.

If not having knowledge of whether or not she killed Andy Warhol is required for this debate then I hope you see what you mean when you say your not qualified to discuss this.

Solanas is a nobody, and isn’t relevant in a discussion of feminism except when you idiots try to pin things on feminism, because you’re idiots.

There is also a marked difference in violence by a marginalized minority against the majority, and violence by the majority against a marginalized minority. Minorities are harmed, and ultimately frustrated by the fact that the system is aligned against them to an unacceptable degree. The KKK and the Black Panthers are both wrong, but the Black Panthers felt driven into a corner by society, and the KKK only wanted more dominance in a society already predisposed to them. It’s not an excuse for violence; violence is not okay or useful absent immediate threat. But it’s a markedly different motive, and pretending their equivalent can only be done if you can pretend the majority somehow has a right to have even more power than they already possess.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

Osborne? you realize feminists mocked her, right?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Also it’s fascinating to me that everyone arguing in support of anti-feminist ideas always refers back to the same few incidents (this video is new, but Osborne has been used that way for a while). Is there some super secret MRA mailing list where they send out talking points? Because people sure do seem to repeat the same few things over and over again.

Maybe it’s because, like Rutee said, if you want examples of feminists advocating violence against men in recent times, and preferably with big recognisable names, you have to look pretty hard, so you end up repeating those same few talking points over and over again.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

For a while Heart’s main thing was trying to work on keeping trans women out of the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival. It really was disturbing reading the comments about trans folk from some of her regulars.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

‘”I simply cannot believe the sexist attacks that all these Anti-feminists are posting to my wall. It’s sad when a woman expressing her view on air makes her a target for such vicious attacks. Shame on all of you, I’m contacting the moderation staff of this page now. ‘ – sharon Osbourne, identifying herself as a feminist on her facebook.

‘The feminist production has previously featured Sophie Dahl, Whoopi Goldberg, Dannii Minogue, Sharon Osbourne and Kate Winslet.’

From her time on the monologues.

When do you and you alone get to decide who is a feminist? Is noone a feminist who says something you find offensive?

Again I’m called a troll, in my time here I have learned alot, researched in directions I would not have otherwise, learned things I would not have otherwise.

I don’t care what you see me as, I don’t care what you think of my tone.

Stawman, just cause you need one in each post I suppose.

Cass – ‘It’s funny that you consider trolling feminist blogs to be working to move the MRM away from its violent tendencies. How is that supposed to work, exactly?’

Ullere – ‘I really have no interest in steering any ship that works in the interests of only half of the world.’

Also no retraction for ‘Solanos actually did kill someone – Andy Warhol. She was a lot like the guy who shot Lennon, in a way. See what I mean when I say that you’re not qualified to discuss this? ‘

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

‘Osborne? you realize feminists mocked her, right?’ Yes I have no doubt many did, noone in the audience admitedly…

So now I’m promoting anti feminist idea? Which of my ideas are anti feminist again?

I don’t want feminists promoting hatred against anyone, but some do.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Don’t give me pet names, Ullere. We are not on intimate terms, and it is not appropriate.

Also, your reading comprehension isn’t very good. Someone can point out that people are anti-feminist without identifying as feminist themselves. Osborne is mostly an opportunist (which is why she’s a good businessperson). She’s free to call herself a feminist if she wants, but most feminists would not agree that her statement was feminist, and in fact they did not at the time.

So if you don’t consider Solanos to be a feminist, or representative of feminism, why do you keep constructing arguments as if she was? What is your purpose here? What are you trying to achieve?

(With that I leave you in Rutee’s capable hands, as I have to get to bed.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Actually, just an odd hunch…David, is Ullere a Simon sockpuppet, or are there just multiple bored guys who troll in very similar styles?

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

When do you and you alone get to decide who is a feminist? Is noone a feminist who says something you find offensive?

You know, trying to parrot people doesn’t work well; you don’t actually understand the arguments made. Osborne isn’t identified as a feminist. You don’t get to call her one because you don’t like her.

Again I’m called a troll, in my time here I have learned alot, researched in directions I would not have otherwise, learned things I would not have otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern_troll#Concern_troll

Also no retraction for ‘Solanos actually did kill someone – Andy Warhol. She was a lot like the guy who shot Lennon, in a way. See what I mean when I say that you’re not qualified to discuss this? ‘

The discussion is on feminism. You thought dead feminists who weren’t even popular in life counted as super authorities. She thought Solanas killed Warhol. Her mistake isn’t equivalent to yours.

Yes I have no doubt many did, noone in the audience admitedly…

You’re quite the dolt, aren’t you?

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

(With that I leave you in Rutee’s capable hands, as I have to get to bed.)

I’m not actually going to be here super long. UWO is just updating. Yay patch days and expansions and all that.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Yay tech people who keep stuff running so that the rest of us don’t have to worry about it.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

I came here because I do not want an echo chamber. I wish to be challenged and have discussions with people with different, even polar opposite views to my own. I read some articles, learned a few things and moved on.

Cass wasn’t a pet name, but I will not call you anything short of cassandra again. You have however called me various names, idiot, stupid, troll, disengenious, sexist, had my argument misrepresented, and faced continuous straw men.

I enjoyed our discussion, sleep well.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

Oh, and the other critical point on identifying as feminist… your ideas have to be accepted. Sarah Palin is not a feminist, however much she wants to pretend she is. Feminists do not cut funding for rape kits or support pro-life initiatives. The bar is not super high to be a feminist, there are plenty of hateful feminists (though contrary to MRA or MRA concern troll claims, men are not really the targets of that hate) But you do actually have to manage to find it in yourself not to place a lump of cells above actual, live women on the totem pole of importance. If you can’t do that, you’re about 60 paces to the left of where feminism is. Much farther afield of where it should be.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern_troll#Concern_troll

I probably do share many of your goals, I do not share your viewpoint at all though. I am not spreading doubt nor concern.

‘You thought dead feminists who weren’t even popular in life counted as super authorities.’

No cassandra said she had never heard a feminist admire solanas, so I quoted some. I don’t consider anyone I have quoted in this thread so far an authority.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

I don’t consider you to be an authority either rutee. Though I don’t know when Sarah Palin entered the thread. You do not decide what is feminism, surely gender issues is not a left/right issue?

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

I probably do share many of your goals, I do not share your viewpoint at all though.

I totally believe you. You are obviously trustworthy and your actions speak to someone who’d like to see feminism advanced. Your stunning knowledge of feminism fills me with faith in this statement.

No cassandra said she had never heard a feminist admire solanas, so I quoted some. I don’t consider anyone I have quoted in this thread so far an authority.

No, you just act like the women you quoted are an authority, with your lame troll attempts, you don’t consider anyone to be.

You do not decide what is feminism

I don’t. Feminists do. It’s pretty easy to find on this note.

Though I don’t know when Sarah Palin entered the thread.

I was adding a qualifier to what I said about identification. If you identify as a feminist, you probably are, but it is possible to straight up be denied as one even if you say you are.

surely gender issues is not a left/right issue?

It’s not a matter of left/right. I didn’t say Megan McCain wasn’t, because AFAIK she is. It’s a matter of failing the basic requisite of “Are women equal to at least a lump of cellular matter”, and Palin failed.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

Ah, excellent. Tata, I have more important things to waste my time on than a shallow little troll.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

‘You are obviously trustworthy and your actions speak to someone who’d like to see feminism advanced’

Your only goals are to see feminism advanced. No I guess we have no common ground. Love, peace, security, truth, justice you have no taste for any of these things unless they advance feminism?

Ah I see your argument, choice was one of the original tennants of feminism.

however luckily for me feminists decide who is a feminist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-life_feminism

http://www.feministsforlife.org/FAQ/index.htm

http://www.theliberal.co.uk/issue_9/politics/fof_hoskings_9.html

So some would disagree with you, and thanks to your bland generalise statement I learned more about pro life feminism.

‘Even Margaret Sanger, the birth control activist and eugenicist, did not publicly favour abortion. Indeed, it was not regarded as a feminist issue up until the late 1960s, and it only became a shibboleth around 1970. It was at this time that the British Women’s Movement, following in NOW’s footsteps, included abortion on demand as one of their four key demands that one had to agree with in order to participate.’

While I really am not trolling, I really do enjoy debate and discussion, I am growing tired of your petty arguments and retorts. You don’t know anything about my actions and based on me not aggreeing with you on this blog you turn to ad hominen attack like everyone who I’ve chatted to so far on this blog with the exception of David.

‘Back-and-forth namecalling is tedious for everyone.’

You would rather paint me as some trolling/idiot/rapist(lauralot) than attempt to see my point and see if you can gain anything from it.

Caraz
Caraz
10 years ago

To be fair you don’t appear to have a point that hasn’t already been expressed by previous idiots. Which is not to say that you are an idiot, merely that all the people who you seem to be in line with revealed themselves to be idiots eventually.

You’re not bringing up interesting new points but rehashing the old ones. You’re like an unnecessary sequel to an unpopular movie. You’re the fifth iteration of any horror franchise, just lazily going through the motions.

Sorka
Sorka
10 years ago

Ullere: What exactly IS your point? That is, what insights would you like for the commenters here to gain, and what did you yourself hope to gain from the discussion? This isn’t very clear to me.

Comet
Comet
10 years ago

(Reposting from other thread – seems like something got scrambled somewhere)

Comparing and contrasting that Reddit pic with the previous post on SCUM, and what gets me isn’t just the fact they’re make offensive jokes. It’s that they can dish it out, but they can’t take it. A woman makes an offensively sexist joke a man doesn’t like: she’s a man-hating feminazi. A man makes an offensively sexist joke a woman doesn’t like: she’s a humourless feminazi.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

You would rather paint me as some trolling/idiot/rapist(lauralot) than attempt to see my point and see if you can gain anything from it.

Your ‘point’ is shallow and idiotic. You don’t have the brains to back up your self image.

You don’t know anything about my actions and based on me not aggreeing with you on this blog you turn to ad hominen attack

No, you don’t understand what ad hominem means. This has already been explained to you. Shoo, fly.

blitzgal
10 years ago

Ullere: What exactly IS your point?

Women are terrible, no matter what they do. It ALWAYS boils down to that with these asshats.

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