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antifeminism misandry misogyny MRA rape rapey reddit threats

Why “F*cking Their Sh*t Up” is f*cked up.

Here’s a picture someone posted to Reddit about a day ago:

Found on Reddit.

The general consensus amongst Redditors who saw the post was that it was hilarious. At last count, the post had gotten 1,157 up votes and 318 down votes, giving it 830 net upvotes. That’s a shitload, even for Reddit; it’s gotten more net upvotes than all but one of the posts currently on the front page of the subreddit (r/vertical) it was posted in.

It’s also pretty fucking offensive — a rape joke, a murder-of-women joke, and a necrophilia joke all rolled into one. Sure, it’s a “joke,” but it wouldn’t be hard to make the argument that pictures like this one, which make violence against women into a joke, can actually serve to encourage such violence.

If you did believe this, what would be the appropriate reaction to such a picture? You could post critical remarks about it in the comments section for the post on Reddit. You could post about it in ShitRedditSays, a subreddit devoted to ferreting out misogyny and racism and other bigotries on Reddit. You could post about it on your blog.

Or you could declare the picture an “unambiguous call for murder” and the person responsible for it to be a ” depraved and murderous male supremacist.” You could offer a reward for information on that person’s real identity, and post that person’s personal information — including their phone number, their place of employment, their home address — online. And if someone points out that posting such information might lead to this person being physically harmed or even killed, you could say: I don’t give a shit.

But that would be wrong.

It would also be terribly time-consuming, because crap like this gets posted to Reddit all the fucking time.

The proper response to speech you don’t like, however vile you think it is,  isn’t violence or harassment, but more speech.

If what someone says goes beyond the bounds of free speech, you have other options. If someone threatens you personally, in a posting on the internet or by letter or email or phone call, you have the right to (and you should) report them to the proper authorities. If someone threatens you physically, you have the right to defend yourself.

But a misogynistic picture on the internet is not a threat to you. Nor is a misandrist video. These things are challenges — and in many ways opportunities — for you to make your case against hate. Responding to shit you don’t like on the internet with harassment and threats — implicit or explicit — of violence? That is hate.

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Xanthe
Xanthe
10 years ago

I suppose the reddit community generally liking this (as opposed to the smaller number of dislikes) is a response to the recent attention given to the Swedish SCUM play’s video nasty? As you say David, it’s rape/murder/necrophilia joke rolled into one, but shit like this should be being downvoted generally rather than a majority of upvotes. My general optimism in people’s better natures gets a kick in the backside from this – maybe I should hope that reddit is not representative of humanity at large.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

Or maybe this is a language joke based on a pun, with a shot being both a drink and indeed a bullet. Perhaps this joke also has a tag line ‘do your part’ which literally calls for the reader to shoot women and have sex with their dead bodies. Perhaps this joke also refers to a manifesto written to inspire men to shoot women and have sex with their corpse…

Or perhaps x doesn’t equal y.

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

“Or maybe this is a language joke based on a pun, with a shot being both a drink and indeed a bullet. Perhaps this joke also has a tag line ‘do your part’ which literally calls for the reader to shoot women and have sex with their dead bodies. Perhaps this joke also refers to a manifesto written to inspire men to shoot women and have sex with their corpse…

Or perhaps x doesn’t equal y.”

Remember when you said in the bounty thread that you were glad I wasn’t lumping all MRAs in the same category as NWO? You’re totally in that category.

rper1959
10 years ago

Yep it’s disgusting crap and should be condemned,

but hey its not asking anyone to “do your part” or to cut up women, nor being promoted in an “education” system as a legitimate expression of an ideology

thats the difference , go ahead and expose whoever is responsible they deserve to be exposed

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

And before you ask, no, it’s not because I think you’re a rapist. It’s because you are willfully obtuse.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

Well I’m sorry to disappoint you, I assure you my post was a reference to the swedish SCUM video and I think you know this. You said NWO advocated all women being sex slaves and the rape of 8 year old girls. To put me in this category for presenting a counter arguement to futrelles counter arguement seems fair to you?

It happens I guess, hopefully your disgust at my post contrasting this reddit joke with the swedish scum video, which summons distaste in you to the same level as child rape and indeed sex slavery, doesn’t affect your views of male rights and mra’s in general. While I wouldn’t say I am an mra, despite what category you put me in, I do believe there is work to be done to build a community of power, truth and justice. I also believe that all things are better with men and women, rather than one and the other, and hopefully one day we will have equality of status and opportunity throughout the world. But hey I’m just a guy you categorise with child abusers and sex enslavers.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

@Lauralot Ah you beat me to it and predicted my reply. I guess being obtuse deserves to be in a category along side rapists.

I’m not trying to be obtuse and I see the point David is making, I simply disagree, it happens sometimes. I present my other viewpoint then I move on, I don’t judge David nor do I put him alongside the things I disagree with, you either Lauralot. We probably agree on more than we disagree on, but you would rather damn me alongside NWO than accept our different viewpoints. Or indeed blame them on me being obtuse rather than me having my own view.

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

Fine, perhaps obtuse wasn’t the right word. Let me rephrase: troll.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

Ah now disagreement is trolling.

I wouldn’t put trolls alongside rapists either.

I came here to learn, I was curious to see how other people interpret things and decided to add to the discussion. Now it’s hard for me to post with seeming like I am trolling you, hopefully if I continue to make valid points and arguements you will eventually remove me from the obtuse troll rapist group, maybe then you will consider some of the points I make.

Moewicus
Moewicus
10 years ago

Ullere, notice how none of what you have said makes it legitimate to publicly target the people involved in the video. It would be over the top in the case of this image and it is still over the top in this case.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

No one here is stupid enough to fall for the “aw shucks, I was just stating my incredibly sexist opinion, can’t we all get along?” stuff here, Ulllere. You may want to try trolling a blog where people are more gullible.

If you want to add to the discussion, do so. So far you have not done so, at all.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

Please Cassandra point out my sexism. Also Rper pointed out the exact same points I made, this image while being offensive does not have a tag line ‘do your part’ advocating violence nor does it refer to a manifesto. I do think we can all get along, although thats because I don’t think we are in competition or adversaries. I have been called an idiot numerous times on this site despite having never having made an adhominen attack on any other poster, now your saying I’m stating an incredibly sexist opinion but surely parodying Davids parody cannot be sexist?

@Moewicus It could been seen as being excessive absolutely, I wasn’t trying to make the point that offending people or making offensive material justifed you being targetted. However advocating murder certainly does make it everyones responsibility to do what they can to stop you, if avfm had made a video of MRA’s shooting a SCUM member and then had ‘DO YOUR PART’ I would be outraged, it would sicken me.

Snowy
Snowy
10 years ago

Wait, where did that happen in the movie From Paris with Love? I saw that movie! And this scene was not in it. Sooooo…

DM
DM
10 years ago

Ullere,

I agree with your point that this joke isn’t as extreme as the scum video.

But I also think it’s important to acknowledge that it is repugnant.

Regardless, neither warrants harassment of individuals for expressing their views, however radical and distasteful we may find them.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

You are being sexist in that you think rape jokes are OK, as are jokes about killing women, and in that you think that a feminists saying “hey, that’s kind of offensive” in response to the image above is comparable to “hey, let’s post these people’s personal details and suggest that, you know, someone might want to do something, not us of course, but someone…”.

You are equating things that are not equal in the service of an attempt to dismiss the outing of people’s personal information in a way that could lead to them being physically harmed. Everyone here can see exactly what you’re doing, and no one is going to fall for it, no matter how disengenous you are.

And yes, Rper is saying something just as offensive, he’s just being more honest about it than you are.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

And, by the way, that’s the last time I’m engaging with this particular troll. I may have to have surgery within the next few days and my patience with aggressive stupidity is not exactly at an all-time high.

Xanthe
Xanthe
10 years ago

Parodying David’s parody? What the fuck are you talking about, Ullere?

In case you hadn’t noticed, I don’t think there were any MBZ regulars saying that the Swedish video wasn’t repugnant.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

I’m not engaging directly with the new troll (the spoons, they are short right now), but I have to kind of scratch my head at the idea that anyone could read David’s post as a parody. I think it’s time to start up the Buy a Troll a Dictionary fund for real.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

@ xanthe

david wrote ‘but it wouldn’t be hard to make the argument that pictures like this one, which make violence against women into a joke, can actually serve to encourage such violence.’

So I made this exact argument based around the Scum video, I never claimed that anyone, not just MBZ reader, liked the swedish video.

@cassandra I don’t expect a reply. Just to be clear on the position I took on this thread offending people or making offensive material does not justify you being targetted.

You are being sexist in that you think rape jokes are OK – actually ironically you are being sexist assuming rape jokes are only about women.

as are jokes about killing women – Sexism is a tricky business, I never said any any point nor have I ever said that jokes about killing women, exclusively for being women are ok.

and in that you think that a feminists saying “hey, that’s kind of offensive” in response to the image above is comparable to “hey, let’s post these people’s personal details and suggest that, you know, someone might want to do something, not us of course, but someone…”.

I didn’t say this image wasn’t offensive I constructed the argument that david said is easy to construct and tied it in with the swedish video that David also refers to in his article. I never compared finding this or any other image offensive to posting peoples details and suggesting that someone should do something, although that is not what was done at Avfm, the quotes that suggest that was what was being done were from commenters. Now posting someones personal details could have dire consequences for that person, and making videos that appear to advocate the killing of men, exclusively for being men, and have the line ‘DO YOUR PART’ for the credits can have dire consequences for men. Surely it’s not outside of your real of imagination that some imbalanced person could see that video, read the Scum manifesto and attack a random male. You can concieve an imbalanced person attacking someone who has their details posted on RH but not attacking someone because of a film?

‘But a misogynistic picture on the internet is not a threat to you. Nor is a misandrist video. ‘
Both can cause negative attitudes and actions but like David said these are mere challenges, an opportunity to make a case against hate.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

Davids article was a parody, or perhaps in reply to
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/1000-bounty-to-identify-swedish-scum-members/

David presents the argument that this reddit image could concievably be seen as advocation the murder of women just as john the other states that the scum video advocates the murder of men. Your going to say you do not see the parody?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

OK, one reply, and only one.

“You are being sexist in that you think rape jokes are OK – actually ironically you are being sexist assuming rape jokes are only about women.”

No one is assuming that only women are raped. This specific rape joke, however, is about a woman, as we can see from the fact that there is a woman in the picture. You can try as hard as you like to shift those goalposts and gaslight people, but it isn’t going to work.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
10 years ago

Ullere:

Oi… There is no parody in the OP. The point is that when you find speech you dislike, the proper response is not to drum up a manhunt (or womanhunt as the case may be) for the authors. The correct response is to speak out against it. The bounty was a wildly inappropriate response to the SCUM video.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Also I am not joking about wanting to buy dictionaries for trolls. Seriously, you guys, we can make this happen.

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

Yes this particular murder rape joke is about women, and at no point did I say that this joke was ok. So you can build strawmen all you want but it isn’t going to work.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

Eh, I’m not arguing with someone who doesn’t even know what the word “parody” means. Our quota for stupid on this particular blog is already full, we don’t need any fresh new stupidity/

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