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Playing antifeminist telephone with the boys from the Men’s Rights subreddit

One possibly true story about the Talking Heads is that, while working with Brian Eno on their genre-shattering album Remain in Light, the band members, or perhaps Eno, decided they wanted to do a song that sounded like Joy Division. The only problem was that none of them had heard Joy Division before, and apparently (this part of the story makes no sense) couldn’t track down any of their recordings.

So instead of recording a song modeled on Joy Division’s distinctive sound, Eno instead suggested that they do a song based only on the descriptions of the band’s music in the British music press.

The resulting song, “The Overload,” offering a glum coda to an album best remembered for its more exuberant moments, doesn’t really sound anything like Joy Division. But it does sound exactly like a song based on, well, what people were saying at the time about Joy Division.

I think about this story a lot, and I really want it to be true — a reflection of Eno’s genius as a producer who knows that sometimes setting constraints on creativity can force musicians and other artists to ratchet up their own creativity.

It’s also a reminder of what happens when you base your understanding of music, art, whatever, not on direct contact with the art in question but on other people’s vague feelings and ideas about it.

In the case of The Overload, the song stands on its own, in large part because David Byrne and Brian Eno and the rest were able to conjure up something interesting based on the vague adjectives applied to Joy Division in the press; they weren’t trying to represent Joy Division’s actual aesthetic. It was more of a game of telephone.

Why am I going on about this? Well, because every time I stop by the Men’s Rights subreddit, or any site that involves large numbers of ignorant people avidly discussing the alleged evils of feminism, I see something similar going on.

It’s clear from the comments that virtually none of the commenters have ever actually read a book or even a handful of articles about feminism. Unfortunately, they’re getting their information from somewhere even less reliable than the music press; they’re largely just repeating what they’ve heard about feminism from other people as ignorant on the subject as they are. It’s a game of telephone that’s lost almost all touch with reality.

Here are a few comments taken from recent discussions of feminism on the Men’s Rights subreddit — or, rather, discussions of a not-terribly-accurate facsimile of feminism the Men’s Rightsers have made up, basically to make themselves and each other mad. When your movement, such as it is, is driven largely by hate, you gotta remember to keep stoking the hate.

One recent comment:

[F]eminists are the aggressors who started the gender war; and … feminism is not seeking the goal of equality at all.

There are lots more comments just like that one:

Even when they get equality, they’ll still bitch about not having equality. In the end they’ll find something to bitch about, they always do.

One more:

As I get older I realized feminism is a scam. It is a great injustice against men. I don’t even understand how it’s legal. It’s not fair at all.

Apparently feminism is some sort of big lurking monster intend on murdering men, or something.

Or maybe just a cult. A death cult.

I’m done playing nice.

Feminism is a cult of hatred and death and anyone who still claims to be one should be mocked and jeered at

Having been pegged (accurately) as members of a hate movement, some MRAs try to reverse the charges:

What they want is more dominance and privilege at our expense.

Feminism is a fraud and a hate movement and you need to stop giving in to their frame of reference.

Longtime Men’s Rights eccentric DavidByron2 has a delusionary class analysis of feminism:

The 1% support feminism for much the same reason they support Nazism or racism. At some point though these things become too much of a risk to continue to be associated with so they may move on to supporting other ways to divide the working class.

Here’s another popular MRA fantasy: that feminism can be defeated with a sort of reverse-Lysistrata move.

The only way feminism will be defeated is if we truly treat women as equals. What I mean by that is, we treat them like we treat males. So no sex, no marriage and no children. Just pretend they are males.

Once enough of them are childless and in depression, they will begin to wake up. If we keep on allowing them to practice hypergamy, to get the upper-hand for no reason in society AND STILL give them children and commitment, they will not change.

Luckily for us, there are heaps of them in their 30s and 40s that are now alone and due to their biology will never be able to find a proper partner to commit to them unless they aim really low or an exception to the rule is found (she is extremely attractive etc).

This fellow below, while as delusional as the commenters above, has a rosier view of the future:

the current generation of feminists are just pushing for supremacy, and lost their chance. possibly the credibility for the entire movement, that had since then done some remarkable stuff, like voting rights, rights to own property, equal rights in marriage, etc

I’m hoping that once this generation of karens dies, in the next 100 or so years feminism and mra migth do as they’re supposed, and go hand in hand creating equality and fairness for both, instead of competition and political tension where both mock each other and refuse to understand the other side

Nah. That’s all on you guys. You’re the ones that have taken leave from reality.

That does give feminists one advantage in the current ongoing battle with MRAs: We pay attention to what MRAs really say instead of just repeating endless dire nonsense that we and our colleagues have made up about Men’s Rights. In other words, we know what we’re up against. The MRAs have no clue.

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50 replies on “Playing antifeminist telephone with the boys from the Men’s Rights subreddit”

(this part of the story makes no sense) couldn’t track down any of their recordings.

Apparently it was a deliberate decision by Byrne and Eno to avoid hearing anything by Joy Division and just go off written descriptions of the music. Just to see what they came up with.

Joy Division were themselves no strangers to ‘unconventional’ producers though. Their records were produced by Martin Hammett. He’s well worth a google. To give a clue as to what he was like, Andy Serkis played him in a film and said that Hammett was the strangest character he’d ever had to portray. When it was pointed out Serkis had played Gollum, Serkis stated he stood by what he had said.

Hmm, the MRA’s take themselves out of the running, leaving the field even more wide open for the Chads and/or men who do want to commit. Plus women who don’t want to procreate face less pressure.

This is a win for the MRA boys how?

Unfortunately, they’re getting their information from somewhere even less reliable than the music press; they’re largely just repeating what they’ve heard about feminism from other people as ignorant on the subject as they are. It’s a game of telephone that’s lost almost all touch with reality.

At least their object of reference actually exists, even if they refuse to actually learn very much directly about it.

Think of the poor theologists, who can do nothing but theorize or repeat hearsay (some of which has been getting copied and mutated for thousands of years) because the object of their study either doesn’t exist or doesn’t actually intervene in the world, and is thus inaccessible to direct observation …

Having been pegged (accurately) as members of a hate movement, some MRAs try to reverse the charges

“I know you are but what am I?” How old are these MRAs? 12?

Feminism is a cult of hatred and death and anyone who still claims to be one should be mocked and jeered at

I am ashamed to admit it, but it is true that I once claimed to be a hatred. Or a death.

Or maybe just an unashamed grammar nazi. At this point, who can tell?

What I mean by that is, we treat them like we treat males.

This sounded great to me for half a second (no cat-calling, forced births, or pedestals? Sign me up!) but then I remembered MRAs also treat men badly. Whether it’s sneering at weakness, namecalling, homophobia, or framing men as violent predators from whom women need protection, they have a dim view of other men, who are either competition, ethnic stereotypes, or punching bags.

I’d rather they treat us like science books and completely ignore us.

Fuck fuck fuckity fuck. There are also two police murders of unarmed POC (one Black, one Latinx) in the news. One was run off the road by a police vehicle for cycling while black and the other was, like Breonna Taylor, struck by indiscriminate gunfire by a cop who evidently saw POC as disposable and as random ignorable background noise.

America is looking more and more like “Syria, but with pretensions to having an actually functioning central government” rather than a modern wealthy nation with elections, civil rights, and the rule of law.

 It’s a game of telephone that’s lost almost all touch with reality.”

That “almost” is absolutelu hilarious!

And sad.

I guess we human animals often tend to couch others’ thoughts in our own terms at least to some extent – but all the really heavy-duty, industrial-scale, weapons-grade million-watt projection generally comes from the right. It’s to light up their epic battles against all those straw-men.

Maybe stop telling me you would love my thoughts, and to please comment, when nothing I have posted has been approved, even though none of it was in any way objectionable?

unrelated but relevant: a recent mass shooting in Denver has been found to have been committed by one Lyndon James McLeod, 47, an alt-right MRA who was, according to some sources, a popular figure in that field, regularly complaining about how women and LGBT are destroying masculinity and America (although it seems evident he also suffered from mental disturbances, likely untreated, in addition to being generally a colossal asshole). He murdered 5 people in a methodical manner, going to multiple sites, and most were “alternative” tattoo shops popular in the local LGBT community. The dead victims were majority AFAB if I’m understanding the news correctly (at least one of the tattoo shops was an LGBT refuge with nonbinary artists). Police shot him dead.

This was particularly chilling because of how near it is to my neck of the woods and I’d been considering one of those tattoo shops for some work I would like to have done.

When are the authorities going to start treating these right-wing MRA idiQts like the terrorist threat they really are?

In other words, we know what we’re up against. The MRAs have no clue.

That’s an interesting thought but I’m not sure it’s of much use. I don’t believe the people invested in MRA cultism are interested in “combating” actual feminism. I’m pretty sure those that aren’t half dead in the brain know that they’re creating a facsimile of feminism – and they do it on purpose.

That strategy is as old as feminism itself and it is one that regressive, destructive movements like naziism have successfully applied before. So these people can take advantage of an array of antique stereotypes that have been passed on over generations. That’s the crux of being in the “minority”: ideas about you are older than you are.

Their goal is to shout loud enough and long enough till some of their ideas will take a hold in their society.

What I mean by that is, we treat them like we treat males. So no sex, no marriage and no children.

Very inclusive “men’s rights” movement you’re building there, by assuming every man is straight.

@rusalka – That makes a lot of sense – it seems they’re either misrepresenting on purpose, or just don’t care.

Good news: Ghislaine Maxwell was found guilty of 5 of the 6 charges against her. No sentencing yet, but faces “a maximum of 65 years”. She just turned 60, so even half that is very likely to be a life sentence.

This shooter on Twitter, April 2020:

“Our entire society is made up of shitty little fucks who insult badasses & get away with it because law enforcement & social norms protect the WEAK from the STRONG. I’m over it.”

“The weak better buckle up… shit is about to get real,” he wrote.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/sixth-person-dies-after-deadly-denver-killing-spree-police-say

I’m pretty sure a bullet would harm me, so I guess I’m one of the weak.

“Our entire society is made up of shitty little fucks who insult badasses & get away with it because law enforcement & social norms protect the WEAK from the STRONG.”

Translation: “Waaaah! I want to be able to bully people who can’t easily defend themselves but law enforcement and social norms won’t let me. Waaah! Sad … and very unfair! Waah!”

Reading more, there are disturbing parallels to the incident in rural Canada a couple of years back, including the targeting of a list of personal enemies, the misogyny, and escaping from the police once and killing more victims before finally being brought down; both even wounded a female officer.

Irony this time, though: the Denver shooter, who espoused violent male-supremacist views, was killed in a shootout with a female officer.

The Canadian one was a wife abuser and had kidnapped her just prior to his murder spree, likely intending to kill her first; but she escaped. Ten’ll get you one the Denver one also has a history of DV.

@ snowberry

Ghislaine Maxwell was found guilty of 5 of the 6 charges against her

The prosecution will like that acquittal on Count 2. It makes no material difference to sentence; but it makes the chances of a successful appeal so much slimmer.

Where there’s a ‘mixed verdict’ it’s very hard to argue the jury didn’t consider the evidence properly, or were confused about the burden and standard of proof.

So whilst the family will no doubt throw money at every possible appeal avenue, it’s unlikely to get them anywhere. You don’t have an automatic right of appeal; you have to show the judge made an error in law or didn’t give proper directions to the jury.

As it happens, the trial judge has been elevated to the appellate court precisely because of her expertise in the law; so it’s unlikely there’ll be any grounds based on her rulings; and the jury directions were agreed between the parties. The only thing she knocked the defence back on was arguing that Maxwell was a scapegoat for Epstein. But, even if true, the reason for prosecuting is irrelevant so long as there is a case to answer. It only really becomes an issue if you’re acquitted and want to sue for malicious prosecution.

As to sentence, this chap has done a good analysis of the sentencing guidelines.

https://mitchellepner.substack.com/p/ghislaine-maxwell-convicted-of-sex

I’m pretty sure a bullet would harm me, so I guess I’m one of the weak.

Well one of those bullets (fired by some weak female offiver no less) killed him, so… pretty weak I’d say

And I feel like this guy went into it thinking he could actually get away with it. Like… kill a bunch of people, drive back to his hut in the woods, drink some beer and no one would bother him.

Once enough of them are childless and in depression, they will begin to wake up

False premise dude. You’re assuming there aren’t a chunk of women who are perfectly happy without kids, in fact don’t desire to have any.

Also this “mustn’t give them children” is an interesting bit from dudes who by and large insist it’s a woman’s place to “give” a man children, and it’s a problem if she doesn’t. Also also, doesn’t the Nazi faction of MRAs constantly panic that (white) women aren’t birthing enough babies?

A quick analysis of information sourcing:

If a conservative wants to know if it’s raining, they first consult the ancient writings, then consult the religious authority, then consult the secular authority….
If a liberal wants to know if it’s raining, they look outside.

@Kat, the shooter sounds desperately insecure. Like he constructed an extreme ideal of masculinity which he was afraid he couldn’t live up to, and tried to hide that through public chest-beating.

I’ve discovered another eerie commonality with that Canadian shooter: the Denver one impersonated a police officer to enter premises at least once during his rampage.

Sorry to hear about the shooting. Just read the Wonkette article (thanks, Alan, for the link).

The writer quoted him bragging about being “aggro”, having high testosterone and a quick temper. Some thoughts on this…

1) I get angry easily too. The harder and braver thing is practicing self-control when anger could lead to doing/saying harmful things.

2) You can have a bad temper without high testosterone.

3) He was probably the sort of person to sneer at others for being “easily triggered” without realizing the irony.

@Snowberry: Excellent news. Turns out being a pimp of underage girls is illegal, who knew?

Meanwhile, I reiterate that the “fee-males” who want kids will be much happier to marry or just get knocked up by Chads, or sperm banks. Those who don’t want kids (moi) will be happier with less pressure on them to have them. And the gay men won’t care one way or another, they’ll adopt the abandoned children of the MRAs, work out some arrangement with lesbians or surrogates, or just carry on being delightfully gay without kids.

Everyone of every sex/gender/orientation will be happy to be ignored by MRAs. Now if we could just keep them from getting guns. Yay to the woman cop who’s survived a misogynistic job and took down this murderer. I hope, before he died, he realized it was a fee-male who got him.

Betty White’s death surprised me simply because she was in the news recently and nothing was said of health problems. That’s too bad. She almost made it into 2022 and hit her hundredth birthday.

@ GSS ex-noob

From the news articles about the shooter, his picture, etc, I get the impression the cop who confronted him wasn’t even looking for him. Call it distasteful, but I kind of like that idea. Mr. Alpha Manly Man, two hundred pounds of muscle, wearing tactical gear and carrying a rifle that presumably could penetrate soft body armor like it’s a sweatshirt, gets blown away by a hundred and twenty pound woman with a little pistol.

On that note, I find it interesting how these kinds of guys long so much for a more primitive society they most likely wouldn’t last long in. They imagine they’d be the cult leader out of Mad Max Fury Road, but in all likelihood if SHTF and they took it as their chance to start assembling a harem and killing everyone they didn’t like, they would get voted off the island, killed by one or more upset parties, meet with an “accident”, etc.

Bullets and blades, as McLeod finally realized, don’t really care how Alpha their target is. Nor, for that matter, do they care whether they enter the body from the front or back, or are joined by a half a dozen of their friends.

Really, these guys should look at modern and historical tribal cultures, where the strong held sway or whatever. Whether it is a modern South Pacific tribe or a Celtic one B.C., the guys who end up in power rarely did so on a pile of bodies. They did so through diplomacy and a little concept called largesse. Becoming the “Big Man” is usually done by making friends foremost. Killing enemies is more of an afterthought or removal of obstacles.

(Seriously, look up the ways the Celtic chieftains rewarded their followers and threw expensive parties. It occurred to me that the recent thing in the news about that US restaurant owner who pays for her employees to take vacations every year would have made sense to them, though they might suggest adding some monthly bashes with plenty of alcohol to round things out.)

@.45:

They imagine they’d be the cult leader out of Mad Max Fury Road, but in all likelihood if SHTF and they took it as their chance to start assembling a harem and killing everyone they didn’t like, they would get voted off the island, killed by one or more upset parties, meet with an “accident”, etc.

They all imagine they’d be a cult leader or warlord. A handful would be. A few thousand more would be some warlord’s mooks. All the rest would be random crowd-scene extras.

Or to put it in old-school video-game terms, for every one who was the head of the centipede there’d be a bunch who were just body segments and the vast majority would be those helpless mushrooms just waiting to get mowed down by stray shots.

They did so through diplomacy and a little concept called largesse. Becoming the “Big Man” is usually done by making friends foremost. Killing enemies is more of an afterthought or removal of obstacles. Seriously, look up the ways the Celtic chieftains rewarded their followers and threw expensive parties.

Things have changed less than you may think. The present-day ruling class also throw huge expensive parties and make big public shows of signing SUV-sized checks made out in obscenely large numbers to miscellaneous charitable causes.

@Americans in general:

WTF is going on with your medical system? I knew it was for-profit, but I just put an American channel on to watch the ball drop in a few minutes and the very first ad that came up was some celebrity endorsement for … a particular brand of COVID-19 test kit.

And all those hospitals with religious references in their names. Why would these seem trustworthy? How will people who don’t believe in evolution decide to treat an antibiotic-resistant staph infection? If they stick to their beliefs come hell or high water, won’t they say “well, they can’t have evolved resistance, since God’s creatures have been fixed and immutable for six thousand years and didn’t exist at all before that, so we just need to up the dosage of penicillin and it must eventually work…”

And I don’t even want to think about how devoutly religious doctors and nurses might (mis)treat women with conditions that involve their reproductive organs … let alone trans patients wanting hormones or reassignment surgery, etc.

The sort of dudebros who regard Immortan Joe as a role model tend to forget that he was hiding critical illness under his predatory mask, deserted by his harem, and assassinated by one of his guards—a disabled woman at that.

@ Surplus to Requirements

I can’t find the book I was thinking of concerning Celts, and a quick internet search doesn’t come up with anything, but I seem to recall chieftains were literally giving back to their community something like 90+% of their acquired wealth. Somehow I think modern day “royalty” with millions and even billions of dollars sunk into multiple mansions they rarely set foot in aren’t matching that level of largesse. Could be totally wrong about this, it has been a few years since I read the book.

As for our illustrious US medical system… it’s a known problem. For your average Liberal anyway. Not so much for Conservatives, but then anything that the Liberals go on about is something they have to be against as per the party line.

@ Full Metal Ox

The thing is, even Immortan Joe gave his followers and troops some form of largesse, he was not some asshole who talked about how Alpha he was for getting in petty street fights and how much of a angry jerk he was. He got to where he was by effectively organizing a motorcycle gang and conducting a small war, whereas a lot of these active shooter types usually don’t seem to even have any friends or the ability to plan out their rampages very well.

Again, we are back to the part where I find it difficult to believe if society fell into some kind of anarchy where these guys could act out their fantasies without law enforcement getting involved, that they would be on top, at least for very long. Remember, even the biggest baddest UFC stars have bodyguards to make sure someone doesn’t sucker punch them or jump them from behind. I don’t care how big you are, put someone behind you with a kitchen knife or brick, a valid reason to use it, and you best have a clear line of succession in your little empire. You can’t live out your little fantasies without people around to tell you what a badass you are, and you can’t account for every weapon around, so you simply can’t expect to be able to push everyone around without an ounce of social skills. It will bite back on you.

But, like I said, these guys often seem to lack even a group of friends they can trust. Somehow they think a total willingness to kill at the drop of a hat will make people worship them.

To be honest, it is the far right intellectuals that are scarier in such a scenario, because they know how to be charming, they know how to work the system. It is more believable that they could end up being a cult leader and guys like McLeod their rabid attack dogs. (You, know, if they behave themselves and avoid upsetting the ex military types that would logically be the cult’s backbone. Step on too many toes, make yourself more trouble than you’re worth, and I imagine they’ll… find someone else to do your job.)

@.45 It’s true that the truly scary types are the ones that actually “lead” by making these dudes think they’re leaders. Although I think the guys that end up “snapping” are kind of outliers in that system. They guzzle up the words and parrot them but are too volatile even for hate groups so they hang around somewhere on the fringes but neither make it into the ranks, building alliances nor manage to built their own “following”. Personally I’m also really creeped by the “quiet” followers that manage to live a somewhat normal live while ingesting their idols hate. Esp. considering how easily millions of people are reachable through media.

That said I feel like these kind of loudmouths generally idealize a world ruled by mobs. But that kind of thing isn’t sustainable. We couldn’t have built civilizations that way. If anything societies have always directed the violence of unfit men towards other societies – and they enriched themselves through it, sure. But they weren’t built on internal vioence.

Although I will admit that apparently there seems to be some sort appeal to that kind of lifestyle esp. for young men. We never went into detail on that phenomenon when I was in university but there were (are?) several cultures and societies where young people (often but not always just men) go through a liminal phase when they were sometimes serparated by society up to several years and band together in groups. But then they grow up and rejoin society.

Maybe that’s what these dudebro’s are missing. Maybe they’ve been coddled by civilisation’s amenities too much and could really have used being left alone in the middle of the woods with a bunch of other hormonal boys when they where between 14 and 18.

What’s ironic to me is: These guys think that their violence being called out is an unacceptable affront by “weak” people, when in reality men get such leeway to be violent towards people, esp. those closest to them even to this day. That’s a pretty dark aspect of privilege and they literally wanna extend that “privilige” from their home to the streets.

In reality though society has always punished such violence. People going around openly killing people within their own group are an intolerable disruption and put stress on the whole group so they were snuffed and forgotten by history.

@ dali

she predates bread slicing machines

Argh! That’s the point I was trying to make.

Ah well, if there’s anything in the Big Crunch hypothesis, then in about 200 billion years time my comment will be correct. I like to take the long view.

@.45: I have read extensively on the Celtic tribes, and you’re right. I’m also reminded of the Pacific Northwest peoples’ potlatch ceremonies, where giving everything away showed how powerful a chief was.

I hope you’re right that he never saw the lady cop coming. Ultimate irony and karma. But I hope he saw her as he was dying. She’s probably such a good shot he didn’t have time to think, though.

I’ll think about Betty next time I have a slice of bread.

Wow, even MTV (!) is putting up a 15 second memoriam to Betty during ad breaks.

Truly universal, she was.

@ GSS ex-noob

Oh, my impression of it was that the shooter certainly knew what he was facing, he did shoot her after all. If we really want to fantasize about it, I’d like to think he panicked when he realized his latest target had the means to fight back, lost his nerve, fired randomly while backpedaling, then got shot by the oh so weak female.

(The reports I saw said the cop fired from the floor after being shot, which implies he had the initiative, but screwed it up despite having the drop on her with a rifle. Guess it is more fun when your targets lack the means to fight back. Must be one of them brave Alpha Male things.)

I hope you DO realize how many feminist articles I’ve read, correct? And from my experience feminists are less likely to read MRA stuff or engage in the first place. Or just to actually understand us, and not misrepresent us. God, I can’t wait to react to this article on my site.

@Surplus to Requirements

> Having been pegged (accurately) as members of a hate movement, some MRAs try to reverse the charges

“I know you are but what am I?” How old are these MRAs? 12?

*Sigh*

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants

> What I mean by that is, we treat them like we treat males.

This sounded great to me for half a second (no cat-calling, forced births, or pedestals? Sign me up!)

I was thinking more along the lines of this….

Apparently we think of very different things.

but then I remembered MRAs also treat men badly. Whether it’s sneering at weakness, namecalling, homophobia, or framing men as violent predators from whom women need protection, they have a dim view of other men, who are either competition, ethnic stereotypes, or punching bags.

I will admit that there are MRAs like this, and it messes with me when they’re this way, because they’re perpetrating the same misandry that the rest of us MRAs are trying to end. Attacking men and degrading them is not what we should be doing. However, many of us are good and not misandristic (or misogynistic) and fight for all men. Another thing I’ve noticed? The misogynistic ones will often shame men to try to get them to leave women or hate them too. They’re just hateful all over the board.

I’d rather they treat us like science books and completely ignore us.

I don’t think the rest of us ignores science though…

@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Welcome back. You’re just in time for a mass shooting committed by a Nazi MRA

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1476004412514463744?s=20

It happened last night, yet I’ve only just heard about it tonight. It’s so fucked up that mass shootings are barely even news anymore.

A mass shooting by a Nazi MRA? I have to check this out, cause it could be 1 of 4 things: 1. It’s actually a Nazi MRA. 2. It’s an ex-MRA, like Roy Den Hollander was. 3. It’s not even an MRA. 4. Something else.

@Jazzlet

Maybe stop telling me you would love my thoughts, and to please comment, when nothing I have posted has been approved, even though none of it was in any way objectionable?

At least it was approved this time.

@Seth S

unrelated but relevant: a recent mass shooting in Denver has been found to have been committed by one Lyndon James McLeod, 47,

I have no idea who this is.

an alt-right MRA who was,

“…alt-right”? Oh, makes sense. The alt-right MRAs are always extreme. I just try to stay away from them.

according to some sources, a popular figure in that field, regularly complaining about how women and LGBT are destroying masculinity and America (although it seems evident he also suffered from mental disturbances, likely untreated, in addition to being generally a colossal asshole).

Does seem like something an alt-right MRA does. I’ve seen a couple of them before.

I wonder if he was an actual MRA? I’ll check it out, of course, but I’m curious to that. People also claimed that Elliot Rodger was an MRA too and it’s obvious he wasn’t. Roy Den Hollander was also is-identified; he was an ex-MRA who hated MRAs and thought that we were essentially a bunch of babies who act like girls or something, or are simps? I can’t remember. It’s been a while. If he turns out to be one, then I’ll condemn him and write an article about him on my site.

He murdered 5 people in a methodical manner, going to multiple sites, and most were “alternative” tattoo shops popular in the local LGBT community. The dead victims were majority AFAB if I’m understanding the news correctly (at least one of the tattoo shops was an LGBT refuge with nonbinary artists). Police shot him dead.

Why does it matter if they’re AFAB? If they’re nonbinary or trans men wouldn’t that be misgendering to put them to that? It would be violence against nonbinary and/or trans men, not AFAB.

This was particularly chilling because of how near it is to my neck of the woods and I’d been considering one of those tattoo shops for some work I would like to have done.

When are the authorities going to start treating these right-wing MRA idiQts like the terrorist threat they really are?

Alt right (not all right wing MRAs are like this) MRAs are extreme and I tend to keep away from them since they’re, you know, extreme. I never liked them much.

@rusalka

> In other words, we know what we’re up against. The MRAs have no clue.

That’s an interesting thought but I’m not sure it’s of much use. I don’t believe the people invested in MRA cultism are interested in “combating” actual feminism. I’m pretty sure those that aren’t half dead in the brain know that they’re creating a facsimile of feminism – and they do it on purpose.

Yeah, there’s certainly some MRAs who do that. I’m not one, and neither are my MRA friends or pro-MRA friends or men’s advocate friends (like my lesbian men’s advocate friend in Spain! She’s pretty great, though feminists have told her she’s not a woman or lesbian because she’s a men’s advocate, which sucks big time because she is indeed a lesbian).

That strategy is as old as feminism itself and it is one that regressive, destructive movements like naziism have successfully applied before. So these people can take advantage of an array of antique stereotypes that have been passed on over generations. That’s the crux of being in the “minority”: ideas about you are older than you are.

Their goal is to shout loud enough and long enough till some of their ideas will take a hold in their society.

Hate to break it to you Chief, but we’ve existed since at least 1856 and we are already growing and getting a hold in society…though the hold is much newer, as we’ve only begun to get people on our side in large numbers, more recently.

@epitome of incomrepehensibility

> What I mean by that is, we treat them like we treat males. So no sex, no marriage and no children.

Very inclusive “men’s rights” movement you’re building there, by assuming every man is straight.

That’s a very good point. I’m gay myself.

@rusalka – That makes a lot of sense – it seems they’re either misrepresenting on purpose, or just don’t care.

Some MRAs do that. Not all, or even most, but it is a sizeable chunk. They generally also tend to shame men to get them to be misogynistic, as well, from what I’ve seen.

@sunnysombrera

> Once enough of them are childless and in depression, they will begin to wake up

False premise dude. You’re assuming there aren’t a chunk of women who are perfectly happy without kids, in fact don’t desire to have any.

Also this “mustn’t give them children” is an interesting bit from dudes who by and large insist it’s a woman’s place to “give” a man children, and it’s a problem if she doesn’t. Also also, doesn’t the Nazi faction of MRAs constantly panic that (white) women aren’t birthing enough babies?

Yeah, I’ve seen that faction, I tend to stay away, and generally for good reason. It’s also partly because said white supremacists are afraid trans men (white trans men I should correct) will transition and not have kids because…logic. We’re all totally attracted to only women (even though I’m gay), and we totally don’t want kids (even though I love kids and am possibly pregnant, on accident, though this would probably be a bad time considering the fact that I’m 17, almost 18, so yeah teen pregnancy. Not fun.). But yeah, I’m a bit wary of them. None of my MRA or pro-MRA or men’s advocate friends are like this, and I’m glad.

@GSS ex-noob

@Snowberry: Excellent news. Turns out being a pimp of underage girls is illegal, who knew?

Very excellent news.

Meanwhile, I reiterate that the “fee-males” who want kids will be much happier to marry or just get knocked up by Chads, or sperm banks. Those who don’t want kids (moi) will be happier with less pressure on them to have them.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don’t know.

And the gay men won’t care one way or another,

Ok.

they’ll adopt the abandoned children of the MRAs,

Ok, this is offensive. If I AM pregnant, I’m not gonna abandon my child, and I certainly won’t abort it, either. I’ll raise it. Only alone because the dude dipped on me (which is bad for the child) (which also doesn’t happen in the majority of cases, men usually stay or want to stay, the dude just didn’t like me anymore). But I’ll still raise it. And while I may prefer a boy, I will be fine with whatever. (Boy=Prometheus, Girl=Celestial, Intersex=Viktor.) I’m really offended that you think we just abandon our kids. Plenty of us have children. Not really usually the younger ones, but many of us still do.

Please don’t do that again.

work out some arrangement with lesbians or surrogates, or just carry on being delightfully gay without kids.

Ok.

Everyone of every sex/gender/orientation will be happy to be ignored by MRAs.

Uh, tell that to me (FtM, gay/male attracted), my lesbian friend in Spain, my gay friend in the UK, my bisexual male friend in India (I can’t tell you who he is since he may get kicked out by his parents or attacked by someone else if they find out he’s bisexual), Blaire White, Theryn Meyer, Phillip Tanzer, the LGBT Intactivist group, plenty of the mods and people on the Men’s Rights Discord (including over 10 nonbinary, if I’m correct?), the one trans male meninist on Instagram I know of but can’t remember the tag at the moment (it went something like trxnnsmenist or something like that, but I’m not sure), the multitude of trans men and women MRAs I’ve met or come across, all the gay and lesbian MRAs, the bisexual MRAs, etc. Need I continue?

An Introduction to the Men’s Rights Movement. – A Voice for Men

Now if we could just keep them from getting guns.

Um, ok. Confused about this one.

Yay to the woman cop who’s survived a misogynistic job and took down this murderer. I hope, before he died, he realized it was a fee-male who got him.

I hope so too.

@rusalka

Although I will admit that apparently there seems to be some sort appeal to that kind of lifestyle esp. for young men. We never went into detail on that phenomenon when I was in university but there were (are?) several cultures and societies where young people (often but not always just men) go through a liminal phase when they were sometimes serparated by society up to several years and band together in groups. But then they grow up and rejoin society.

If you’re including MRAs in that, then I hope you know that I was even one when I was a little girl and I am still one, and no I wasn’t raised that way…I just became one by developing empathy for men and male issues. Such as domestic violence and rape (by both genders and genders beyond against everyone).

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