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Incels lose it (even more so than usual) after woman jokes about the “aborted girlfriend” meme


By David Futrelle 

Incels aren’t really very good at the whole “humor” thing. Last week, I wrote about the “Imaginary Girlfriend” meme in which an earnest stick-figure woman declares that if she hadn’t been aborted she could have grown up to be every incel’s dream girl. “Sorry I couldn’t be there for you,” she says. “But my mom had other plans … would have liked to have a lot of kids with you.”


To me, the meme looked more like the work of a troll doing a pitch-perfect parody of incel logic than an actual incel meme, but a lot of other people thought it looked real, and it certainly could be. One of these people tweeted this:

Well, long story short, some incel found the tweet and posted it to the Braincels subreddit. And the incels there, not all of whom knew what she was referring to, lost their shit.

fuckbitchesman 36 points 1 day ago Baby killing whore. Burn in hell. permalinkembedunsavereportgive goldreply [–]Zyklon_Bae 23 points 1 day ago Women are soulless Golem. permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive goldreply [–]Bobodzadza 14 points 1 day ago Fact

Detoxified- 19 points 1 day ago Daily reminder that women's rights were a mistake.

vrcodemonkey 27 points 1 day ago All woman's thinking is sick. They are a disgusting degenerate creature. Guarantee she finds another Chad and gets fucked first night and eventually aborts another. Horrible horrible fucking nasty creatures

AyeThatsAGoodNaggercucked beyond recognition 17 points 1 day ago Supporting abortion is the epitome of female illogic, narcissism, emotionalism, sexual incontinence, and unwillingness to accept the consequences of their own actions.

Huh. Not having a baby when you don’t want to have a baby seems pretty logical to me.

One fellow fantasized about beating her up — and her liking it.

futmut 11 points 1 day ago I would love to hear her jokes from her mouth while i punch her face like a sack of shit as she is...who knows, she might even get excited from that😉

This lovely fellow suggested genital mutilation:

HailSatancel 3 points 20 hours ago She should get her pussy sown shut tbh

Still others reminded us that most incels are only a step or two away (if that) from being straight up Nazis.

based_meme 2 points 1 day ago Is this what you want , Western civilization? Is this this the kind of degenerate filth you want perpetuating society?

Inceller 5 points 1 day ago Women are subhuman trash. Lower than insects


Naturally she gained some new fans on Twitter as well, some of whom also appear to be Nazis or near-Nazis.

I’m still not sure why posting a picture of a delicious looking Arby’s roast beef sandwich, intended to suggest that a woman is a “roastie” who has had so much sex that her labia have mysteriously grown larger and more roast-beef-like, as if that’s really a thing, is considered an “own,” even by these idiots. Sex is good; Arby’s roast beef sandwiches are good. The two of them together would be fantastic, with the only real drawback being the slight danger of getting horsey sauce on a tender area.

It remains funny to me, in a sad sort of way, that incels — whose personalities are basically a collection of red flags — have managed to convince themselves and each other that women hate them for their looks.

277 replies on “Incels lose it (even more so than usual) after woman jokes about the “aborted girlfriend” meme”

You want us to provide statistics to prove the negative of your claim, now? Fine.

Approximately 50 percent of all pregnancies in the United States are unplanned, and of these, 43 percent will end in abortion.

The 10 percent of women who do not use contraception account for approximately half of unplanned pregnancies, but the other half occur in women who were attempting to use some form of birth control.

There you go. The one piece missing from there is how many of the abortions result from the people not using contraception, but at least we have some statistics around your claim. And no one accused you of being here in bad faith, but I’ve never even heard of a person who with hundreds of friendships so intimate they go into detail about their sex life with each other, so I assume your comment was an extreme overexaggeration.


I don’t get why the two words pro life in of them selves are worth more than the actions people take

To reiterate what Kupo said, taking a label that signals affiliation with a violently patriarchal political position is an action. We don’t have to trust your pals’ reasons for taking that action just because you, in your admitted ignorance, believe their reasons benign.

I also don’t understand why not being Pro choice personally adamantly in public means you want there to be restrictions

How many people have to tell you that effects count infinitely more than intentions before it actually gets through to you?!?

They think it is personal not social or political

They engage in social activism on a political issue, but consider it personal. Well, howdy there, massive contradiction. How are you today?


This is not what I intended at all and I’m honestly a bit confused as to how it got this ugly.

I told you why this got this ugly. This is from my post on page 6:

Some people have the energy to walk someone through it, some people don’t. Sometimes it varies. Sometimes a community is just DONE with X topic, because X topic is consistently under attack and oh no a new supreme court justice is going to be named, the second, it’s going to swing the supreme court rightward, he’s going to be -10 years old and be on it for the next seven thousand years, and the likely candidate is going to do something to make Roe vs Wade basically useless…?

Also Ireland just got abortion up to 12 weeks (so the government says). Here’s a link explaining the issues in the referendum. This was written before, but the pro-choicers won!

Northern Ireland still has incredibly restrictive abortion laws, meaning people need to travel out of their country to get an abortion.

Also Argentina is fighting for abortion rights.

There are a few links in the original text.

I hope that a careful reading and some time will allow you to understand what happened, and why. Good luck.

@ Katiekitten

I feel for you I really do; it’s awful when we have to accept that people we love are flawed. But perhaps consider this:

People here have explained how even the most subtle *seemingly* non judgmental moral pressure can have an insidious social effect. Like even ‘necessary evil’ implies that it is still an evil.

Now consider your own position. You’re a really bright women. Intellectually you know access to abortion is a good and necessary thing. But deep down are you still finding yourself thinking that it is somehow ‘wrong’?

What does that matter, you may think. You’d only apply that standard to yourself not others. But here we are, where you have, and I’m sure completely unintentionally, introduced that same subtle pressure as mentioned above; and so the cycle continues.

Now the people here are perhaps more resistant to such pressures, but a lot of the people you encounter may not be. You’ve mentioned you’re popular, so people will be influenced by you and follow your cues. And it becomes an ever expanding web.

Anyway, just some thoughts; everyone else has put it better anyway.

And like I said she’s completely aware that making any more restriction we just put more life in danger why is that part not important when the two words pro-life(and the way she describes it as she is pro-choice politically but pro-life personally just by the way) are so intensely important but her actual wants for women to not die or be hurt are completely irrelevant or at least that’s how it seems I’m really not trying to be snarky or obnoxious.

Given that abortion rights are under extreme threat in the US, and given the fact that before access to legal and safe abortion women were dying or having their bodies permanently wrecked by botched illegal and unsafe abortions, anything other than full and unconditional support of abortion rights is going to contribute to people with uteri dying and being hurt. That’s just how it is. Like it or not.

If we lived in a country where abortion rights were solid and under no threat, it would be easier to let these kind of claims go, but in the US in this decade, we all have to make choice between the lives of embryos and the lives of people with uteri. There is just no middle ground anymore. The forced birthers have seen to that. Take it up with them.

WWTH, when you put it bare like that, I can’t disagree. As you say if circumstances were different then maybe that point of view would not be problematic necessarily. Like it would be in some cases and maybe it wouldn’t be in some other cases. But with the travesty of our current administration and the new Supreme Court pick coming up you are just completely right. In this specific instance(and other ones that I’ll elaborate on when I get home)i was completely mistaken partially because I did not add the variable of us being in The Darkest Timeline right now period and partially because of things I was just ignorant about.

I believe like you seemed to imply maybe if abortion was absolutely guaranteed to be legal and government subsidized and insurance covering it and no waiting periods and all that dumb shit they do to keep people from getting abortion my mother’s and her friends opinions would not be hurtful because as I said they do believe it is personal. Not brought up to people you aren’t close to.

So in the hypothetical situation I just made up then it wouldn’t really be hurtful right?(if not right, please tell me) They would just be beliefs. I And I honestly don’t know what the Catholic Doctrine properly is about different sins but my mother believes that pretty much yes sins are equally sinful. Like yes murder and swearing are equal they’re both sins, but morally speaking murder is worse than swearing because you are killing a person it’s not worse because it’s a worse sin, does that make sense?

And I honestly don’t get why if you are of the Catholic faith(which I no longer am) why loving a sinner but not loving their sins is a Bad Thing unless you’re just objecting to the cliche? Jesus said that’s what you should do, and most people I know agree even if they aren’t not religious at all and don’t believe Jesus had any divine connection to anything he was still pretty good guy and a incredible philosopher and had the right idea about a lot of things.

If in your hypothetical scenario, there was no social stigma against abortion that imposes a psychological barrier to abortion access, then perhaps I would agree that their viewpoint wouldn’t be hurtful. Like how I probably would only be perplexed, but not offended, by someone who is personally morally opposed to using oxygen breathing machines, since people who need aids to breathe are generally not prevented from accessing them in any way (other than monetarily because the healthcare system in the states is fucked up).

If all sins are morally equivalent, then what’s the damn point of bringing it up at all? Does your mother also talk about “Oh, some people may choose to wear cotton-polyester blends, and that’s their choice, but mixing two fabrics is a sin, so I’m morally opposed to it”? Why not? They’re all equally as bad as abortion, right? Shouldn’t your mother be equally morally opposed to all of them? Or is abortion bad for a different reason than being a sin, like how murder is bad for a different reason? If so, why not talk about that reason instead of bringing up the completely irrelevant sin aspect?

So in the hypothetical situation I just made up then it wouldn’t really be hurtful right?(if not right, please tell me) They would just be beliefs.

Never gonna happen. In a world free of misogyny and attempts to oppress women, groups of men wouldn’t be telling us that family planning is a sin and those beliefs wouldn’t exist.

Such thought exercises don’t absolve anyone because we’re nowhere near that hypothetical world.

And yeah thirding Rhuu and Catalpa, “hate the sin, love the sinner” is concern trolling bullshit. It’s always said about things like women having sex/getting an abortion or queer people. It’s never said about people who eat meat on Fridays or don’t observe the sabbath. It’s pretty clearly an attempt to express bigoted opinions but still get to say “I’m not a bigot, so you can’t call me out.” It would be a perfectly nice sentiment if it was actually used to say you can still love people who aren’t perfect, including yourself. But it never works out that way. It’s always used by people who smugly call themselves good people while denying the humanity of others.

You may be right Catalpa I am literally not sure. I honestly do not know if the Bible States explicitly that abortion is a sin. I also want to be clear that even if it is I could care less that’s why I left the Catholic Church well among multiple reasons. But people who are Catholic bring up when things are sins I think(I can ask my mom when she wakes up before I go to bed)so they will be aware they sinned and can repent if they so desire? I could be wrong there too and I think there’s more to it but I think that’s a part of it. And yes they’re equal but they’re still sins in God’s eyes to my mother but if you’re sorry and want forgiveness God will forgive you.

I don’t follow these standards anymore I haven’t since I was literally a freshman in high school no the year before that. But that’s what they believe and I don’t see how that’s harmful as long as they’re not proselytizing. It’s not like my mom’s going to walk up to random people or even acquaintances and tell them that they are sinning that would be absurd. I assume she does it can people she’s really close with because she’s religious personally and wants them to be forgiven. Like I said I’m asking and making speculation from my mother’s actions and words. I’m not personally Catholic and I stopped when I was literally 13 so it’s hard for me to fully understand the mindset I’m about to get on the subway home so now is when I’m going to start reading from the beginning. It’ll give me something to do on this long-ass subway ride.

Again I was very agitated previously and emotional because I was a little bit unwell. I think if I read everything now when I’m more stable and rational maybe I will understand better because I feel like I’m missing something vital. Like it is within my reach but so far I’ve completely missed it. That’s exactly how I feel right now. Cuz before people have given me excellent advice here on many thing family my polyamorous relationship(which by the way everyone who gave me advice about that thank you very much it was good advice and things are working lovely.)

So obviously everyone’s agreeing I must be wrong or at least mostly wrong so I’ve grasped some parts but there’s an important piece like a concept or something that I’m missing and I’m hoping going back over everything while I’m rational and calm will let me figure it out. I hope everyone’s having a lovely weekend so far and I honestly appreciate the persistence of the people who has been trying to fix my ignorance on this topic. I am sorry for my animosity the other day I was honestly somewhat unstable I get like that. So I apologize again

I’m still reading and contemplating but part of the problem I honestly don’t know how big a part but something that leads to a reasonable amount of ignorance and misunderstanding on my part is my naivete I think. When I just read your most recent comment my absolute first thought was if they’re using it to as you say deny the humanity of others by definition they’re not doing what Jesus wanted. You’re not hating the sin and loving the sinner you’re hating both. Since I left the church when I started having cognitive dissonance I don’t understand why people call themselves Christians but they don’t truly act Christ-like and follow his ideals at all! For example all the Republican Jesus memes. If you don’t want to be Christ like why do you even want to be a Christian? And that’s probably ridiculously naive even as a first thought but that’s truly the first thing that came to my mind.

Okay I’m going to keep reading and thinking now like I said almost everyone here is someone whose opinions I respect and have helped me in the past with different kinds of advice(most recently my relationship and it was good advice LOL.)So if everyone says I am wrong I’m probably at least 90% wrong. I do think there are a couple minor misunderstandings still but all the major misunderstandings are pretty much on my part.

Also thank you so much Alan the little compliment was exactly what I needed. I don’t want everyone here to hate me or have contempt for me or think I’m just remarkably stupid now just because of this conversation. I know I’m probably being insecure and paranoid and that’s not how people are feeling

To give a personal anecdote of ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ – so i have not come out to my Very Religious Sibling when this conversation happens. They are Catholic. I mean, we’re all Catholic but most in my family are lapsed. But not this sibling!

So I’m talking about how Orson Scott Card is a hypocritical asshole who deserves to see his films tank, because you don’t get to be all ‘homosexuality is a sin!’ And then be upset at a planned boycott of your movie because of that.

You have free speech, and so do I, Orson Scott Card. My money will speak, and it says ‘fuck you, maybe you should read this fucking book called SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. Where we learn to see the humanity in everyone, to find common ground so we understand that even if something is truly alien to us, they still have value.’

(I guess i missed the ‘no homo lol’ in an appendice, or something.)

So we are having this discussion, and they ask if he’s reeeeeally homophobic, or just against gay marriage. Then they use this phrase. And let me tell you how it felt: enraging.

This was years ago, and it still hurts. Our relationship has never recovered, because anything i send going “hey, here are reasons why i was so angry about this, and it took me years to then come out to you” they tell me feels like i’m attacking them.

(This was at their invitation to me to explain why i was still angry. It didn’t last long, because what was the fucking point?)

So fuck it. I can’t improve that relationship, and it makes me feel like i don’t even want to visit my family. I used to call and talk to this sibling for hours every week, and now i haven’t phoned them in years.

I wonder if they’ve noticed? I wonder if they understand what a betrayal (paraphrasing the stupid weasle words into what they are actually saying) –

“i think what you’re telling me about yourself is something that you should feel ashamed of, and beg some man in a dark box for forgiveness from an imaginary dude in the clouds i value more than you.”


“if i didn’t know you personally, i would think how you are going to hell for this thing that you can’t change. I do about people i don’t know personally! And people in my community who don’t have our personal connection think it about you.”


Also fuck ‘this is just a test god has given you! If you never form a non-hetero relationship, you’re totally fine! Sorry god apparently decided to make you want that relationship with someone that he then denied you, hey look at my mixed fiber outfit lol lol we have fun.’

As soon as something is labelled a sin and then enforced by a community as such, it makes people feel ashamed of things that they really don’t need to be ashamed of.

I don’t need fucking forgiveness for being alive. If god made all of us in his image, i guess he’s a little bit queer because sure as shit people are.

I think the ‘important piece’ you might be missing is this – People don’t need forgiveness for getting other life saving surgery, so why do they need it for abortion? (To pull it back on topic here.)

They don’t. They don’t need forgiveness from anyone about this choice they made, for themselves. For their family, if they have one.

They don’t need the shame attached to this, because they haven’t done anything wrong.

Something can be enforced through religion, as these views are, and have more or less impact depending on how large a presence the church is in a community.

Ireland, for instance, is seeing a shift away from the Catholic church being a powerful arbiter of morality.

The evangelicals in the states are gaining power in this, our darkest timeline.

Good on your mom for writing to the Vatican. Their attitude towards contraception needs to change to help the world.

I don’t know if she can make the final step to understand why considering this a sin is bad. I hope you can, because that might help more in the long run.

Dammit, i need to stop writing out such long ass screeds. This is getting ridiculous.

Personal story time… Done! Phewph.

Sins like wearing mixed fabrics and working on the Sabbath (which doesn’t only include working for pay but also things like mowing your lawn or cooking food for yourself) are far, far more common than abortion and also viewed as far more harmless, even by those who are religious. (Plus they’re also explicitly labeled as sins in the Bible, while abortion isn’t, as far as I know.)

Let’s take your mother at her word that the main concern around abortion is that ignorant people might not know it is a sin and therefore not seek forgiveness for it, putting their soul in peril. Then a far more helpful use of your mother’s time would be to organize charities which provide only 100% pure fabric outfits, so that they can help people avoid accidentally sinning by mixing fabrics, rather than a charity which provides birth control so that women can avoid accidentally sinning by getting an abortion, wouldn’t it? Why the focus on abortion, a sin which is apparently equally as bad, but far, far less common than swearing or lying or working on the Sabbath or mixing fabrics?

(Hint- it’s either because abortion is indeed viewed to be a “worse” sin or because your mother find something else immoral about it beyond it being a sin.)


None of us thinks that you are stupid, or at least I don’t and I don’t think anyone else does either. However, social pressure, social brainwashing in the form of social pressure and gaslighting is insidious and deep. We’ve all had more than our share and we’ve all had to dig those ugly things out.

For example that whole dogwhistle “I don’t see color” thing. It is bullshit because anyone born and bred in the US has been trained to see color and nothing but color and the tiny micro-judgments and assumptions that get made are often invisible to the people making them.

Someone once said that sexuality and all of its corollary activities is the only physical thing that can be socially controlled without killing the person – and thus sex became a sin. (I of course thought about all of the guilt people get about eating and weight but we will leave this partial example aside for a moment except to note that women get the disproportional load on this one too.) You don’t breathe; you die. You don’t drink water; you die. You don’t eat; you die. But if you don’t have sex, you don’t die. So sex can be easily used as a pressure point to socially control people. And whose sexuality is most controlled? Women. We are responsible for not only our own sexuality and all of its consequences, but for the sexuality of the people we are sexual with – especially if they are men. I find that lesbians are still mostly invisible in this culture and that is a whole other area of discussion but women tend to bear the disproportionate burden of these things, from date rape to pregnancy and everything in between. And many things outside of that arbitrary range.

One of the places this is most obvious and most insidious is women’s control of their own reproduction on every front. KatieKitten, you aren’t the only one who was trained in internalized misogyny – we all were. This is insidious and invisible. The idea, that abortion is a “sin” except in very narrow circumstances and that women are to be at the very least socially pressured and judged? This is a very harmful and insidious idea. Women don’t have reproductive choice, freedom or safety in this area or any other.

Worse, because of internalized misogyny and how it operates in groups or culture, anyone of us cis or trans can be pulled out of the group, castigated, pilloried, judged and left for dead. And the rest of us often feel so unsafe and so slimed by the misogyny that we’ve all grown up with that we essentially do the “not like the other girls” thing and let the public shaming begin. The kind of thinking you are putting forth? This is that kind of thinking – and it isn’t your fault. We all got and continuously get a bellyful of it everyday. We are asking you to think about this. And it isn’t easy. I’m trying to point out other areas of reproductive injustice and not having much luck because of the this.

Example, look at Monica Lewinsky. Who took her side during that? Even the big name second wave feminists were lining up to comfort and support the president. She was 22 and we all heard those tapes, she talked about the leader of the free world and their relationship like he was a frat boy who didn’t call often enough. She didn’t see the reality of her situation because she was so young and because of the power differential. The jury is now in, her life was ruined because of an indiscretion when she was twenty-two. Worse, I don’t think it was only the sex that did Monica in, but that she wasn’t thin enough to make the grade as bombshell. And so society destroyed her utterly. Is this the kind of world any of us can live in?

Here is one more link for you. Not only is the article I linked good, but several others are, if you are still reading. Her model of what happened in Australia when corruption, money and abuse were taken out of the system is great as well. (Adoption by the Numbers)

@Cyborgette – Was it you several weeks back?

Supporting abortion is the pinnacle of female… sexual incontinence

Abortion happens because women can’t control their bladders when having sex?

Okay the reason I haven’t posted anything yet is because I wanted to speak to my mother honestly beforehand because I’m feeling kind of resentful in a way. Since some of this is opinion and some is factual I can’t really get angry for her stating her opinions to me even if they’re problematic but I resent that she was perfectly aware how ignorant I was about actual pregnancy like what being pregnant is like. She could have informed me but for some reason chose not to. She said that firstly I insisted I would never have kids since I was in high school which to be fair is true she didn’t see why it was necessary she said if I seemed like changing my mind she would have told me before. That seems plausible to me I guess but I don’t know I still feel sort of misled by her. Also I decided to write my dropper post down on paper first because like I said I’m not comfortable with computers and stuff and I really want this to be coherent and sensible if not concise because I’m not capable of that LOL.

Thank you very much for that story Rhuu! That was a very good example of why people don’t like that phrase like I said I can be overly naive and immature and I feel that if you use that phrase you shouldn’t be using it to be full of s*** and essentially facetious. But it seems like honestly that’s how the great majority of people use it completely unlike Christ himself meant it he talked about but he honestly in the case of Mary Magdalene and many other times believe you should love the sinner but it seems most people say it in a completely different way that Jesus didn’t mean it all. As I previously said I honestly don’t even believe in the concept of sin anymore and haven’t since I was a young teenager. But if someone does believe in it then they should do like Jesus did or I feel like they’re honestly just being a straight-up hypocrite.

To be fair to my mom when I told her I was bisexual she really didn’t care I I think my mom is in a weird place mentally right now. She was raised very Catholic it’s interesting that you mention Ireland because my mother was conceived there but born here in the US. Both of her parents lived there and immigrated here. So as you say especially since we’re talking like over 50 years ago my mom is almost 70 the Catholic church had a ridiculous amount of power there as the Arbiter of morality and I guess she was very strongly influenced by it when she was young. Because she seems to be often conflicted in the last say decade or so between what the Catholic Church says and some opinions she holds. I would say the LGBT part is the biggest her best friend is flamboyantly fabulously gay. So like I said if anyone is interested I have come to a lot of conclusions with everyone’s help and input and information and I will make a conclusive post when I get home. Hope everyone had a good weekend the weather was miserable in NYC though. Hugs to all.

The frustrating thing is, my sibling doesn’t think they are full of shit. I specifically mentioned how much I hated that phrase when we talked about it, years later, and they said that I just didn’t understand what they meant.

I do understand, though. I know both what they meant (they love me, regardless of any sins) and what they are, in effect, saying. They don’t have to deal with the consequences of what they are saying. They just get to say this phrase, which allows them to love someone they have been told they shouldn’t.

It insulates them from the consequences of their beliefs, allowing them to continue to spew hatred while telling themselves that they aren’t hurting the people they know and love.

And they really, truly don’t see it that way at all. To them, they are being ‘Christ-like’, because everyone sins. They are just seeing past it, to the person deserving of love.

I guess I’ll just have to see past the mixed fibre outfits they wear while working on the Sabbath to the person within, right? :/

I guess I’ll just have to see past the mixed fibre outfits they wear while working on the Sabbath to the person within, right? :/

Yeah, but that’s okay because you can feel superior to them while looking past their sins and loving them anyway, even though they’re degenerates. 😉

There’s a long history of women being kept in the dark about pregnancy and childbirh. There’s also a long history of doctors and nurses doing procedures to women in labor without their consent and otherwise utter dehumanizing them. Here’s just one example from many I pulled quickly from Googling “women in labor procedures performed without consent.”

Trigger warning for upsetting descriptions of traumatic childbirth and asshole medical professionals.

This stuff is not separate from the anti-abortion movement. When pregnant people (or potentially pregnant someday people) are seen as vessels for babies instead of as humans, it’s not just access to family planning that is under threat. Informed consent about any and everything involving sex and pregnancy and childbirth is dismissed as well. A pregnant person who is carrying the pregnancy to term is also treated as public property. There are consequences to not holding bodily autonomy sacred even for those women who behave in church approved ways and get married before getting pregnant and subsequently giving birth. Anti-abortion sentiment harms all uterus havers, whether or not they ever intend on having an abortion.

AuntieMameRedux – may I take it as established that my husband and I are not, in fact, genocidal monsters for having adopted two five year old Black boys from foster care in Oakland, California? Because I would like to know, if that is the case.

Also, KatieKitten – you are getting some astonishingly good advice here. I encourage you to note it down, so years from now you can look back and think, ‘what a lot of good advice I got back then! Certainly came in handy.’

I just want to clarify that I think you’re intelligent and have good intentions and I understand it takes time to take in and process new information like this.

Echoing what Kupo said. This is all a lot to take in, and it is understandable that it will probably take a while.

Hope you’re having a good day.


I am similarly frustrated at my Mum. She’s in her 70’s now and has Parkinson’s disease. When she was young she was a member of the Plymouth Brethren, and it set her up for victimhood all her life. She married my father who was a violent man much older than herself who wanted a housewife. She believed in making herself a helpmeet and her family did not believe in divorce so she stayed with him. He was a narcissist and took control of the finances etc and purposely isolated her. She had basically given up on life by the time she had me.
She always said she wanted for me what she couldn’t have, and she expected me to marry a wealthy Christian man and give her grandchildren. I believed that nature and my bodily instincts would take over by the time I was in my 20’s and I’d want sex and to give birth but it didn’t happen. In my teens I visited my doctor who was old school. I told him I wanted a sex change and he laughed at me and said you’re a pretty girl, just go and get on with your life and don’t be stupid.
I tried to mentally prepare myself to be a wife and mother, so I wouldn’t have to let my mum down, but I couldn’t go through with it. Now 20 years later, I’m having to be honest with myself about being trans all along. I have not transitioned, but I am taking baby steps because I’m still disapointed with myself that I couldn’t be a woman.
Mum understands it a bit better now, but she still has a lot of programming to break and her health hasn’t helped.

My mum had a baby a few years before me but was denied a cesarian, she was drugged up on pethadine and the baby died a few hours after birth. Mum was not allowed to see or hold the baby, and she was still in hospital when she was buried. My father blamed her for it saying she was stupid and didn’t know how to push. Mum has terrible problems now with a bladder prolapse from this botched delivery and has to wear a diaper.

I used to believe the pro life movement was supported by scripture, but doing my own research I found this shocking passage from Numbers 5: 11-31, which describes an unfaithful wife being taken to the priest by her husband for a forced abortion. In those days, bloodlines mattered and had to be kept pure, because patriarchy.
A man would not waste time and effort raising kids which weren’t his seed. In this case, the women has no rights and is only seen as a grow bag to carry on her husband’s line. Not knowing about zygotes, they assumed the seed came only from the father. This scripture describes a woman being administered a herbal potion to make her miscarry. Much like some African cultures do today.

@Virgin Mary

Daaaamn, I didn’t know about that one. I’ll have to keep that in mind for further arguments with Bible-thumpers. Apparently abortion isn’t only not stated to be a sin in the Bible, it’s actively prescribed as a way to deal with infidelity.

Although, I mean, Thou Shalt Not Kill is one of the big commandments and Old Testament God also instructed people to make war against the enemy and kill those folks. So maybe it’s a case of “well yeah it’s a sin unless it’s JUSTIFIED”. And of course any actions taken by Good Christian People are Justified and any actions taken by any other demographic are Immoral and Sinful. The perfect way to maintain the moral high ground without actually having to do anything but be self-righteous.

I’m sorry to hear about your struggles with your identity! I hope that you can reach a point where you are happy with yourself, in whatever form that may take. You don’t owe anyone else being a Good Woman (or a Good Man), you’re only responsible for being a good person. The rest of it is up to you and how you feel most comfortable.

I am coming around to the idea that Yahweh is just the God of Israel, a local God, but not the creator. I tend to think that he is synonymous with the gnostic false god Yaldabaoth. It makes a lot more sense to me given his commands to commit rape, genocide and to mutilate animals in his name.

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