I had an interesting conversation recently with a woman on Twitter who told me that my policy of letting MRAs and misogynists comment here, at least so long as they’re not abusive, was keeping her and others she knew from joining in the conversation; she wanted a place to discuss MRAs where she didn’t have to deal with them.
I know a lot of the regulars here like engaging with the trolls and MRAs who stop by, but I’d like to create some space here for commenters who want to discuss the issues in a Troll- and MRA-free zone.
So I thought I’d try starting a new kind of Open Thread: A No-Troll, No-MRA, No-Misogynist, No-Rape-Apologist, No-Douchebag Thread to discuss the issues I cover on the blog and anything related to that: Misogyny, MRAs, PUAs, MGTOW, the “Red Pill,” and so on. Enjoy!
Oh, and if a troll wanders in, or if someone starts being douchey, ignore them and send me a note. I’ll delete their comments and ban them. No warning, no moderation, straight ban.
My experiences with creepers are (to me) mild enough where I didn’t feel terrified, just more alert and consciously putting up my guard.
First when I was a teenager working at Chuck E Cheese, an old man was flirtatiously asking me to smile for him. I fake-smiled, hoping he would be satisfied and leave. Thankfully, he did. He left alone, which just added to my suspicion of what he was doing at a Chuck E Cheese.
Years later, when I moved to a new apartment, my next door neighbor was an old man who, upon learning my mom and I are Japanese, told us how he loves Asian women. My mom asked him to help bring the furniture over from the store with his truck, but when I went in, he leaned right over me, his face almost touching my breasts. Totally to check my seatbelt for me. Yeah, sure. Oh, and he had a (much younger) girlfriend in the Philippines. I don’t live there anymore.
Most recently, I’m walking from my car to work (we only had street parking), a man shouted something out of his car window at me. Then another day a man on a bike waggled his tongue at me as he passed by. And during the last week of work (it was a temporary job) a male coworker was fired and escorted out for sexually harassing the female workers.
@ augzilliary Gah, good thing that sort of behavior is banned. With the way creeps are, I do wonder if the ones who did that were actually depressed people or just opportunistic predators.
Ugh, my life theme song is “Stars on 45”.
The rise in misogynistic, horrible online commenters is really depressing. I’m trying to see it as a symptom of something positive: women are making genuine gains in education, careers, respect, and public visibility, and that’s deeply threatening to these guys. Thirty years ago there wasn’t this kind of intense, vicious, sexist vitriol. Sexism was there, but it was a lot more subtle and less overtly public. Women were just starting to enter the workforce in significant numbers, but there was no question that straight white men were still firmly in charge. Now women are starting to outpace men in college graduation rates and middle management jobs. Women are less willing to endure a lifetime of abuse and domestic slavery for the sake of marriage. Hiring managers nowadays are more impressed by hard work, skills, and experience than penises. That makes a certain subgroup of entitled, incompetent jerks nervous. Either they have to step up their own game (too hard), step aside and cede the playing field (too humiliating) or smack down the competition (easy when you’ve got broadband, plenty of time on your hands, and a bad case of the verbal shits). They’re dinosaurs, roaring at the oncoming meteor.
I got harassed not too long ago by some 13 year old kid following me down the street at night making lewd comments, asking if we could hook up, then (when I kept ignoring him) asking if he could throw snowballs at me. I finally wheeled around and told him to go home and stop bothering random adults, it was past his bedtime. He retreated, but it was disturbing to be creeped on by someone that young. Where do they learn that behavior?
Also, a company I worked at was blacklisted, because during a state-mandated harrassment awareness training seminar, our CFO harrassed the trainer. *facepalm*
Hi David
I just wanted to say thank you for bringing MRA hate out into the open. I can’t imagine wading through that muck day after day. I can’t even stand reading through threads on news articles that get high jacked by MRAs, they are disgusting. I also appreciate all the funny comments from the regulars here, I’m usually just a lurker but I very much enjoy reading others’ comments. Anywhoo, thanks to all!
Buttercup Q. Skullpants: That CFO showed such a spectacular level of stupidity/arrogance I legit sporfled.
MRAs (much like Elvis, although they are the anti-Elvis) are everywhere it seems. Just yesterday I was on a Gawker article about the Seattle shootings, and one numpty was arguing that they shouldn’t release the shooter’s name because it would give others ideas. This quickly devolved into we don’t name rape victims (he totally missed why we don’t do that) Duke, and then Brian Banks. If these assholes ever get original talking points, I might die of shock.
One thing I struggle with is the issue of getting hit on. Sometimes it bothers me, sometimes it doesn’t, and I’ll flirt right back. But the times it doesn’t bother me is usually when it’s someone I would likely go out with, and I feel kinda bad about that. We have two regulars that flirt constantly. One of them…my alarm bells go off, and I don’t have an discerible reason why. (Although I’m not the only one who notices it). But I still feel bad, like I should be flirting with him for the sake of…equality, I guess? Because i definitely flirt with the ones i find hot, so i should flirt with him too, even though i don’t find him hot? Does that make sense?
@buttercup q. Skullpants: I know what you mean. It’s bad enough to be creeped on by grown men. I look really young for my age ( youngest I’ve got was 13 when I was 26), so when children act like that I feel that if I weren’t walking around looking so young, they wouldn’t, so it’s my fault.
auggz, it may not be face to face, but it’s definitely real life – sadly. If only there were a delete button …
Good grief.
There’s a kid of about, I dunno, six, seven, lives down the street, and the first time I encountered him he demanded to know where I was going, where I lived … okay, little kids are curious and ask weird questions, but this kid struck me as more like Entitled Man, Junior Version, from the way he talked. Couple of times I’ve encountered him since I’ve ignored him, and if he tries it again the words “None of your business” are likely to be said. No, kid, you don’t get to demand time and attention from me.
The Mammoth Hunters’ Senior Citizens’ Swap Meet!
I think my first 45 was Tiger Feet by Mud. I was still young enough to think of tigers rather than humans with that name.
First LP – not sure, but probably A New World Record by ELO.
Flirting or attraction aren’t matters of equality, there’s nothing owed. You don’t like the guy, period. You wouldn’t be flirting with him under any circumstances.
Just remind yourself that’s the voice of the NiceGuy(TM) whining at you – “You flirted with him, why not meeeeeee?”
Gah, “Power of Love” by Celine Dion is my life’s theme song. I want a new birthday now.
Re: Harassment – I live in a rural area, and about half the time I’m the sole caregiver for my kids, so it’s rare that I’m out and alone in an area where the creepers seem to feel enough comfortable anonymity to take a shot at me. If I lived in a city or a bigger town, though, I have a feeling that all bets would be off. Anytime I’ve lived in a military town or been in a big city, I’ve had dudes who thought I needed to know their opinion of my ass (it’s “sweet”) or why I should wear my hair down instead of up (“Beautiful! So sexy! NO DON’T PUT IT IN A BUN NOW!!!”). As it is, even at the ancient age of 34, I still have fellows shout stuff at me occasionally when I’m out running, or teenagers who slow their car so that they can follow me until I turn onto the next street (thank goodness I have a dog who looks a little menacing in low light, even though she’s an enormous goofball IRL). Since I live in a predominantly white area most of my recent run-ins have been with white boys, though I’ve gotten offers and commentary from men of all races.
Not just you but others? So that means that he’s not especially attracted to you in the first place, surely.
Options. It might be just that he’s not very likeable or otherwise attractive. Or it could just as easily be “The Gift of Fear” giving you a needed nudge.
The right choice for either option is to turn him down or turn him off. If it’s option number one, then you might be “leading him on” because you really have no intention of getting any closer to him, so it’s not right or fair to give him any false hope. If it’s option number two, you’re keeping yourself safe. A double win for a single decision.
Twice in my life I’ve had a more dramatic creep encounter. First time was when I had recently moved to Stockholm, and was riding the underground. I ended up being alone in a car with this dude, who started flirting with me. I tried to just ignore him. Suddenly he grabbed me and pushed me into the wall of the car, tried to make out with me. I was stuck with my arms and legs but gave my best shot at head-butting him in the face (he was a bit taller than me, so his nose was level with my forehead – thought that if I’d hit hard enough I’d break it). He skipped away, and then we just stood there, looking at each other, in awkward silence until the next station. I never got around to calling the police, since I had so much to do what with moving to a new city and everything.
The second time was something like ten years ago. Once again I was riding the underground, minding my own business, reading a newspaper. For some reason I looked up, and saw that the man sitting opposite me had whipped his cook out and started jerking off while staring at me. I got furious and grabbed his head and shouted in his face that “you don’t fucking do that IN PUBLIC!” (maybe not the best line, but couldn’t think of anything catchier at the spur of the moment). The weirdest thing is that the guy tucked his dick back into his pants and went “I’m sorry”, in the kind of voice that you might use if, idk, we had been eating and I had told him that he was chewing with his mouth open and that’s not polite, or something along these lines. SO WEIRD. Like, “oh, I happened to whip my dick out and jerk off, sorry, just momentarily forgot that you’re not supposed to do that in public transport, so hard to keep track of all these rules of etiquette” or WHAT?
Thing is, when someone is behaving in a really threatening way, my spontaneous reaction is to get super-pissed off. The above are the most dramatic examples, but it’s happened as well that some dude grabbed my butt in public etc, and I always yells in his face when that happens. Then there was some kind of interlude of several years when I went about my business more or less unharassed… and then lately, it’s happened a few times that dudes have made stupid gender comments like the one I described above. And when that happens, I’m always just dumbfounded, and don’t come to think of anything smart to say until it’s too late. But if these comments keep coming, maybe I’ll work out some kind of response routine eventually….
I don’t have alot of trouble with street harassment.
But, people here are very forward with their assessments of your appearance. These assessments almost always come in the form of compliments. If you are unaccustomed to it, it’s pretty weird. It happens everywhere and it’s usually women who will stop you to let you know that you are rocking whatever it is you are rocking.
Yesterday a guy yelled at me as we passed each other in our cars.
He yelled, “I LIKE YOUR HAIR!”
I yelled back, “I LIKE YOURS TOO!”
It was true. He had that kind of mussy fro that looks perfectly “unkempt” and probably takes alot of time and product to get just right.
Our conversation over, we waved and went on with out days. We will never meet again. But we know where we stand on each other’s do’s.
I think it’s really different when someone shouts a compliment at, like, your hair, your shoes or whatever, something that actually stands out about your appearance and they appreciate, and when someone just goes “hey SEXY” or the like. These are different things.
Meanwhile over on The Spearhead, Price has outdone himself. His latest: D-Day wasn’t worth it because – wait for it – feminists.
Canuck: But the times it doesn’t bother me is usually when it’s someone I would likely go out with, and I feel kinda bad about that.
Don’t. That you flirt with one person is your perogitive, That you choose whom you want to flirt with (for whatever reason) is your right. No one is entitled to having an interest (be it simple flirtation, or swinging from the chandeliers) reciprocated.
I get some minor harassment because of kilts. I have a coworker who used to ask what was under it. I confess to not making much of a scene and just, pointedly, ignoring her when she did it. Lately, for some reason, I’ve been getting a lot more. Guy stopped his car to let us pass (I was out with my partner) and made a comment about needing underwear because of the humidity… WTF?
And customers at work. One dude, in front of his wife made a point to tell me that anyone wearing a kilt,”better be proper, not wearing anything under it”, and a young woman (from the UK) said, “You’d better be wearing something under that”, with a disgusted tone which was sort of offensive.
pecunium,
What is wrong with people?
How is talking about a strangers undergarments ever seen as OK?
Dvärghundspossen,
Absolutely. Yelling at strangers from your car is still weird and not very polite, but that comment still wasn’t skeevy or frightening like “Hey Sexy” would be.
I’m approaching senior citizenhood so no one tries to hit on me anymore. I did get a variation on “Smile!” a year or two ago. I was walking and smoking a cigarette when a strange man walking towards me on the sidewalk said, “Still smoking? Tsk, tsk.” I just smiled and passed by but immediately kicked myself for doing that. I still can’t think of a snappy comeback I could have used.
But I think this is still a sign of misogyny, because women have to get more education than men do to get a decent paying job. They have to get more advanced degrees than men to qualify for some of the same jobs, and many of the well-paying jobs that don’t require a degree such as trades are still mostly shut off to women.
In addition, even low-paying jobs such as secretarial work that are often some of the few options available for most women are increasingly demanding bachelor degrees.
Skullpants – not much to add, but I think that your post gets it exactly right. I think a lot of what we’re seeing is a reaction to women’s successes on the part of those who are too narrow-minded to understand that this is a good thing for everybody, including themselves. A good example of this was a particularly telling “argument” (repeated a few places) in response to Title IX enforcement, equalizing funding resources between both men’s and women’s college sports programs – namely, that the decision was unfairly pulling money out of men’s programs. Nevermind that the money they were “losing” was what the men’s teams had been stealing from women’s teams for years.
Anyway, great post. 🙂
Just dropping in to say how much I’ve enjoyed the threads and the debates lately. Sometimes the original MRA material in the posts does get me down – so much crap in the world! – but it’s always cheering to see it skewered and mocked with such verve. Thank you David for wading through the crud for the nuggets of pure mockery gold.
And kitties: always good to see the furry overlords.
I do get the impression that at least some forms of misogyny are getting worse and more explicit than 40 years ago, which is roughly when I started paying attention. Open hostility of a quite vicious nature seems more acceptable in some circles – I’m not sure whether the internet allows a certain amount of disinhibition, perhaps.
Also reaction to women’s success may be a factor. I’ve worked most of my career in education and keep hearing lately – from some of the most unlikely people – arguments along the lines that boys are oppressed because girls’ school grades at 16+ are better on average than theirs. Which has only been the case for a few years, but when boys’ grades were better, nobody said a word – it was just the normal state of affairs. I’m a product of the 11+ exam, which determined the educational chances of children in England and Wales from the 50s – 70s, and the exam was always rigged in favour of boys (there were nationally fewer selected places available to girls) and in every cohort there would be a group of boys who had failed but were “deemed to have passed” and girls who had passed but were “deemed to have failed”.
As for harassment – well, the earliest I can recall was when I was about 12, dashing about on a bicycle on the pavement, and an adult guy reached over and grabbed my T-shirt and pulled it up my torso. It puzzled me deeply – I couldn’t make out what it was I’d done wrong.
42 years later, last Sunday, I was awake very early – some of the treatment I’m having makes it hard to sleep – and went out for a walk. I went around the block a couple of times first, passing a guy in his early 20s who’d just come out of a turning nearby, and then decided to head for our local riverside park, which is about half a mile away. I was sitting by the river bank listening to the dawn chorus, when the same guy appeared, yelled “Do you mind if I join you?’ at the top of his voice from the other side of the park, made a beeline towards me and came and hovered about 5 feet behind me. I was between him and the river bank, which made me feel a bit threatened, plus it seemed as if he had followed me there. I wasn’t sure if he was high or just being obnoxious, or both, but I didn’t feel comfortable any longer, so I said “I’m just off,” and started to walk away. He started yelling abuse at me. Apparently I was a bitch and a cunt for not wanting to talk to a complete stranger guy who wants to “join me” by the edge of deep water at 5.30 in the morning.
Between those occasions I can’t really count the number of instances, petty and greater, including (many years ago) a couple of guys trying to drag me into a van, which ended with me climbing over a garden wall to get away, followed by a ride home in a police car. There was never any followup, though I like to think one of those guys still has a dodgy knee where I kicked him. It was hard to get my head around the idea that some people I have never even met and who could have no personal reason to dislike me might want to hurt me.
It’s not just that these things happen frequently (although they do seem to happen pretty frequently), more that it makes a tedious difference to how free you feel to live your life. I would really like to feel able to go and sit in my local park without worrying whether I’m going to get misogynistic verbal abuse, for instance.
Luckily most of my street harassment ended by the time I started university. I think I just figured out by that point how to carry myself (head up, shoulders back) to not look vulnerable. In high school though I was slightly clubby, awkward, poor, and biked to school because it was a relatively free way to stay in shape. Oh man, all of the “sarcastic” whistles and “hey sexys” were just my punishment for daring to be ugly in public… Luckily that shit ended, but i can’t help but attribute it at least partially (apart from looking more confident and like I won’t take anyone’s shit) to being slightly more conventionally attractive… Which also kind of makes me feel shitty. The comments I got were totally power trips, and not meant to be compliments in any way.
Anyway, I do have actually good stranger comments stories lol! Mostly women complimenting clothing or jewelry to ask where I got it. One even though happened when I was walking around lost in Waikiki a few years ago. I felt kind of out of sorts and messy, and walked by a group of aged 20-something guys loading some stuff into a car. I just kind of kept my head down and kept walking. After I had passed them one said “Excuse me… Errmm umm Miss? You are beautiful”. I was kind of taken aback but managed to squeak out something along the lines of thank you and have a good day. He said likewise and we parted ways, but oh man I could hear his friends tease him after I left 🙂 he sounded sincere and didn’t seem to expect attention or anything in return, and wished me a good day when I left.
The LOGO network has started airing Designing Women reruns and I watched a handful this morning. What a great show! I fondly remembered it from my youth but had forgotten how feminist and political it was.
Julia Sugarbaker rules!
Harassment? First I kind of nervously wonder who is asking us, and why. Is it to disprove women are harassed? Is it for some thesis paper? Curiosity? Or why? (Lex-Man?)
It doesn’t really happen now, other than something I don’t want to go into here. You mean street harassment I think, or in public places. And you wanted to know how often.
Well, now that I am older, it doesn’t happen that often. But when I was anywhere under 40 it happened with regularity. It seemed to happen the most between about 21 and 35.
Do you want a few incidents?
How about the time I was riding my bicycle and a man in a pickup truck purposely angled it across the road in front of me, blocking my way? He had been following behind me slowly for a bit. There weren’t many people around and no reason for him to do that. I was riding along the side of the road. I got away by cycling up onto the grass and wherever I could to get out of there.
How about the time when I was a child and someone tried to kidnap me out of a store where I was looking at dolls.
How about the time I was watching a movie, in my 20s and felt someone behind me staring at me. I turned around and there was a guy stood at the back of the aisle with his hands down his pants, jerking off inside his pants and staring at me.
Street harassment – regular basis, especially in my 20s. Almost any time I went for a walk, catcalls from passing cars. Sometimes from buildings. Always from construction sites or street crews. Sometimes from pedestrians. Sometimes someone would grab at me. Sometimes someone would follow me. I’m trying to stick to the obvious ones because I know MRAs will read this and think it’s all imagined. Isn’t that what they spend time doing – pretending this doesn’t happen?
Have had my ass grabbed and spanked by strangers. Have had more than one guy follow me right up to my car and had to slam it shut. Was at an intersection once and a person appeared right at my car window. I had it cracked open and jumped because no person should be walking in traffic like that. He said “I’m not gonna rape you. You’re too skinny.” It is hard to just walk around when you are a young female without having men comment on how you look and what that is doing for them.
Once I walked past a jail not knowing that is what it was. The catcalls were loud. I couldn’t tell what most of them were saying except one was singing a song he made up about my butt. A lot of the comments from catcalls focused on my butt, which is creepy. It didn’t matter what I was wearing. I dressed modestly. I wasn’t flirty. I didn’t smile at strangers. I didn’t even make eye contact most of the time. Just minded my own business.
I tried to stay safe. I parked close to things and underneath lights. I carried my keys between my fingers. I carried pepper spray. All that stuff. Can’t help you against comments and grabs, though.
I don’t think men understand how much a part of daily life this is for most women. Once you get older or heavier it slows or stops. At least it did for me. Unlike what MRAs claim that is a relief. Blessed silence. I don’t mistake that silence for respect.