all about the menz entitled babies evil women excusing abuse father's rights misogyny MRA oppressed men patriarchy playing the victim

Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men's Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.

Or any other time, either, I’m guessing,

Lundy Bancroft is an expert on abusive relationships and the author of Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men, a book I’ve found very helpful not only in understanding abusers but also in understanding the behavior and “activism” of Men’s Rights Activists.

In a recent post on his blog, he warns about the ways in which “Men’s Rights” ideologies can justify, and made worse, abusive behavior from men who are already abusive, or who have abusive tendencies.

In the post, entitled “The Abuser Crusade,” he writes

When a man has some unhealthy relationship patterns to begin with, the last thing he needs is to discover philosophies that actually back up the destructive aspects of how he thinks. Take a guy who is somewhat selfish and disrespectful to begin with, then add in a big dose of really negative influences, and you have a recipe for disaster. And the sad reality is that there are websites, books, and even organizations out there that encourage men to be at their worst rather than at their best when it comes to relating to women.

It’s not surprising that a philosophy rooted in male entitlement would appeal to men who already feel pretty entitled – and often quite bitter that the women in their lives, not to mention the world at large, doesn’t seem to regard them as quite so deserving of adulation as they think they are.

As I’ve mentioned before, I used to think it was unfair to label the Men’s Rights Movement “the abusers’ lobby,” as many domestic violence experts have done, because I felt that the movement did raise some issues that MRAs at least seem to sincerely believe reflect discrimination against men. But the more experience I’ve had with MRAs, the more I’ve begun to see the Men’s Rights Movement not only as an “abusers’ lobby” but as an abusers’ support group, and an abusive force in its own right, promoting forms of “activism” that are little more than semi-organized stalking and harassment of individual women.

It’s not that every MRA is literally a domestic abuser, though I wouldn’t be shocked to find domestic abusers seriously overrepresented in the Men’s Rights ranks; it’s that the Men’s Rights movement promotes abusive ways of thinking and behaving.

In case anyone had any doubt about which groups Bancroft is talking about, he gets specific:

Some of these groups come under the heading of what is known as “Men’s Rights” or “Father’s Rights” groups. Their writings spread the message that women are trying to control or humiliate men, or are mostly focused on taking men’s money. They also tend to promote the idea that women who want to keep primary custody of their children after divorce are evil. The irony is that we live in a country that has refused to pass an amendment to the constitution to guarantee equal rights for women; yet some men are still out there claiming that women have too many rights and that men don’t have enough.

Bancroft also warns about groups preaching a return to patriarchal values:

Other groups don’t use the language of “rights”, but promote abusive thinking by talking about the “natural” roles of men and women. These groups teach, for example, that men are biologically programmed to be the ones making the key decisions, and that women are just naturally the followers of men’s leadership. These philosophies sometimes teach that men and women are just too different to have really close relationships.

In the end, Bancroft urges women whose partners are picking up new philosophies that seem to be making their behavior worse rather than better to start researching the subject themselves, and reaching out to other women in the same situation, in order to better understand what their partners are getting into — and defend themselves against it.

I’m curious how many readers here have had personal experience with men who’ve embraced Men’s or Fathers’ Rights philosophies (or any of the varieties of backwards Manosphere philosophies), or who know of women whose partners have.

630 replies on “Domestic violence expert Lundy Bancroft: Men's Rights philosophies make angry and controlling men even worse.”

Yeah, seems a little too coincidental. Is MEZ to be our circumcision troll, then? She could at least be more entertaining. That’s all we ask.

The days when trolls varied their boring/gross schtick with unintentional hilarity seem to be gone, alas. Mikey tried his best with his SPINSTERS! but even then, he got stuck on repeat pretty quickly. But this one? Not a single thing to recommend her trolling efforts. Walls o’ text are so yesterday.

@LBT: People call you an axe-murderer? How unfair! After all, you only ever murdered one axe, and it was tiny!

(Sorry, couldn’t help myself. I hate it that you have to deal with that, and I wish you didn’t have to)

Yep, might be a bit more inclined to take troll’s comments on social justice more seriously if zie wasn’t using a racist dogwhistle for a nym.

@ titianblue
Are you talking about that asshole MEZ? I googled the nym because I was wondering what it meant, and I didn’t see anything racist, even at urban dictionary. I’m curious, what does it mean?

Might referring to “Arianrhod”, in which “Arian” means “silver” (if I recall correctly), but given the types we get around here, and given their initial lazy comment, it’s probably not worth giving them the benefit of the doubt.

According to Google/Wikipedia, Arian could refer to any of a number of completely innocent things (including a Christian theological movement and the adjective form of the zodiac sign Aries). I think the speculation on the nym is a little hasty.

OTOH, given the way “egalitarian” has been poisoned by misogynists, I do rather resent Arian lumping us in with them.

It’s pretty amazing that a fresh false circumcision equivalency troll found its way here. It’s not like the original post mentioned it. It’s like trolls have a special sixth sense and they know every time their favorite topic is being discussed somewhere.

RE: Kittehs and moldybrehd talking ‘living in the moment’

Mindfulness was actually a big part of my treatment regime in Loony Daycare, and it was most invaluable to me during the Bad Years of homelessness and mental illness. For me, at least, it was invaluable.

When things get really, really bad for me, I try and focus on surviving the moment. Whether it’s curling up in a ball and crying, or distracting myself with art, or whatever, I try and focus entirely on that. During the Bad Years, I know it sounds horrible, but I HAD to lock up all my good memories, because if I allowed myself to remember and focus on how good things could be, I knew I wouldn’t survive. I had to adapt, even though I was adapting to something horrible.

It wasn’t fun, but it kept me alive and kept me focused on getting out of my shitty situation. Dissociating might’ve been more pleasant, but I wouldn’t have been able to get out so good.

RE: Arian

You’re late. Read the goddamn thread, chowderhead.

LBT – gah, once again, I am so sorry for all the shit you’ve been through, and I’m glad that mindfulness has helped you.

I wonder if surviving the moment even came into the thinking of Mr Not Very Scientific Survey Dude? He’s on about being _happy_ by focussing on the moment. They don’t seem related things, to me – using the same tool/method, yes, but not at all the same situation.

Arian: by that logic a labioplasty (reduction of the labia for cosmetic purposes) is the same thing as castration. You can’t oversimplify things that much and expect us to take you seriously.

“egalitarian” Hardly. This is a site for mocking misogynists. We tend to be feminists. We tend to various stripes of less conservative politics (running the gamut from moderate Democrats to various stripes of anarchist).

We have any number of characteristics (atheists, theists, christians, muslims, jews, agnostics, pacifists, veterans, vegetarians, omnivores, teetotalers, drinkers, men, women, young men, young women, vulgarians, punctilios, pedants, cooks, cat lovers, dog lovers, parents, people who never want children).

We also tend to some pretty ruthless logic. We don’t believe bleating that “x is as bad as y” makes it so, and false equivalence is bullshit.

So, put up (i.e. give us some evidence for your claims… there are pages of comments, I’m sure you can find one direct quotation to support your accusation), or shut up.

It’s like trolls have a special sixth sense and they know every time their favorite topic is being discussed somewhere.

My theory is that Google offers some sort of super seekrit service marketed at trolls that alerts them to any possibility of shoehorning their pet topic into conversations.

katz: I suspect the researchers would reply that trauma affects the brain differently than positive feedback, and so needed to be studied specifically.

There’s something very un-serious about somebody telling us that we need to take issues of violence and violation of autonomy seriously AND BY GOD I WILL THREATEN YOU WITH VIOLENCE AND VIOLATION OF AUTONOMY UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT

My brother is pretty pro-male-circumcision-as-a-baby. Because after complications from an injury he was circumcised at an older age, and it was hellish.

There’s not much in the way of numbers and logic in that argument. But it’s very hard to say anything after he says that.

Yeah, a family member of mine was circumcised in adulthood after multiple childhood infections. He chose to circumcise his son to prevent him from having to go through that, which seems reasonable to me.

RE: Kittehs

I wonder if surviving the moment even came into the thinking of Mr Not Very Scientific Survey Dude? He’s on about being _happy_ by focussing on the moment. They don’t seem related things, to me – using the same tool/method, yes, but not at all the same situation.

I can sooooort of see it? I mean, I’m generally happiest when I’m focusing entirely on what I’m doing, because it means if I’m unhappy doing that thing, I will realize it and work towards doing something else. (Note that this can take years, and maybe never happen, but I’d rather try to do something more enjoyable than just pretend that change is impossible and continue not thinking about what I’m doing.) But then again, I’m a dissociative, so not spacing out is vital for my health and long-term happiness.

RE: katz

Why couldn’t they have tested whether mice remember where to get treats or something?

Freemage is right. In humans, at least, trauma makes permanent changes to the brain that apparently are different from other responses. It’s probable that mice are similar. That said, I too am repulsed by torturing animals.

RE: Howard Bannister and emilygoddess

Eek, I hadn’t even thought of that. I would never, ever want to be circumcised myself, but hubby was as a baby and has told me he’s unbothered by it. If it works for him, I’m not going to complain. (That said, we mutually decided that if we ever have a baby with a dick, we won’t do it unless there are health complications like what y’all mentioned.)

if we ever have a baby with a dick, we won’t do it unless there are health complications like what y’all mentioned


In general I don’t have strong feelings on the circumcision issue, but one thing that I don’t understand is why, in any culture where pretty much everyone is going to have it done, they’d wait until the boys are 10-ish to do it, like they do in say South Korea. That just seems like the worst possible timing – still too young for the recipient to make the decision for themselves, and it’s not like their opinion is being asked, but old enough that they’ll definitely remember it and that it may well overlap with the period during which spontaneous random erections are a thing, which really does not seem like it would be fun if one was recovering from surgery. I’m not saying that I think that routine infant circumcision is a great idea, but surely if you’re going to have it done to most kids anyway and you’re not going to give them a choice then doing it when they are too young to remember is the kinder option.

LBT – I’m thinking of focussing vs mind wandering in banal circumstances, like being at work; that’s not something one has a lot of choice about doing, and I think Mr Survey is silly to conclude that focussing on something like that, something you do all the time just because you need the money, is going to make you happier (general you here, obvs). He seems to be drawing far too general conclusions when people’s characters and circumstances vary so hugely, and that’s just in the everyday situations, not the dreadful ones he seems to have ignored (no surprise in his self-selecting survey).

I just really side-eye stuff like this that comes across as some random person telling me how to be happy.

This is a really old article I know, I’m a HUGE fan of this blog, I found it about six months ago and have worked my way through 167 pages of archive so far. Anyway, now that I’ve stopped sniffing Dave’s butt I’ll get on to my actual comment, I know a man who has recently started red pilling himself. It started out quite harmless, he was very impassioned by my old job as an advocate for male abuse and rape victims and he was very interested in that and other serious problems men face in the world, but he started slipping very quickly into blaming women, the last time we spoke he put up a post about “teach men not to rape” because it was sexist as it puts all the blame on men in his opinion, several of us tried explaining that actually it means teaching both genders about consent so people don’t become rapists but he was having none of it, got more and more aggressive and kept repeating the same point no matter what we said, so I told him he’d fallen for the oldest trick in society, squabbling about the lengths of our chains rather than working together to remove them and that was that; he’s been posting more and more aggressive stuff and if he sees me in person he sneers. Pity 🙁

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