Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
@archeaholmes
“The image is eating a child. Eat veal, you’re eating a child, and a child brought up in a pretty nasty way. That’s offensive if you think people care about their kids more than cows do.”
While I am for better standards of living for animals: fuck you. Kids are way fucking more valuable than cows. Though I’m sure this can be proved wrong cuz I eat baby lambs about once a year and that is just like eating children…the fuck?
“No, I mean sending up the idea of the boob as a commodity. Breats are made a commodity every day in advertising and porn”
Let’s try not to make it more so that way. Also, if you don’t have breasts: shut the fuck up about them.
@cassandrasays
“Did I ever tell you I once petted a shark? It was a small shark, and its skin felt cool. My parents were not amused.”
::envy:: I pn theory, idk about practice.
@archeaholmes
“The thing about comparing animals’ experienes to racism, genocide, transphobia etc is that the animals whose lives we eat are worse than any human – and I mean *any* human – can imagine”
…wow… Yeah, you seem extremely lacking in empathy here. I’m at a loss for words over this what the fuck… Ok, trying now. I DO NOT WANT ANIMALS TO BE POINLESSLY SUFFERING. HOWEVER. WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS SERIOUSLY DISRESPECTFUL AND TRIVIALIZING TO HUMANS WHO HAD TO GO THROUGH ALL THAT SHIT AND YOU JUST SAID THE FUCKING ANIMALS. WHO DON’T DESERVE TO SUUFER EITHER BUT ARE NOT FUCKING SETIENT. OU JUST SAID FUCKING ANIMALS HAD IT WORSE.
I think it’s rather clear at this point what the real difference is. You all think that men are the one and only category that it’s impossible to ever disadvantage in any way. That the label “male” is always a good thing. A man can be disadvantaged as a black or gay or disabled. It is functionally impossible to ever do anything bad to someone because they are male. It’s got to be some other reason. It is not even possible for anything bad to happen to someone based on gender, if that gender is male. Note, this isn’t a strawman. This really is what the lot of you sound like to me.
With the traditionalism and male disposablity cranked up to 11, I really do wonder if you would still be talking about “The Patriarchy” and “Male privilege” if every man was chained naked in a cage.
Yeah, I was too focused on the sexism earlier to even go down this path, but if you’re a straight white cic person then saying that x is worse than racism, genocide, and so on? Really not cool. And verging on Godwin territory.
BTW I think that some animals other than us are fully sentient. Whales, dolphins, possibly ravens, maybe parrots…we’re definitely not the only sentient creatures on the planet. That in no way justifies anything PETA does, nor does it justify comparing, say, dairy farming to genocide.
How did you get that out of this?
Marie, one point: animals (especially if we’re talking about the mammals we eat) are sentient. They feel pain, they have consciousness, and animal intelligence is way higher than is usually acknowledged. There are animals whose consciousness and sense of self is probably not that different from our own. I think “sapient” would describe what you’re saying better than “sentient”.
MAINE COONS!!
Cassandra – I lost my Maine Coon cat on christmas day at age 20. He was the runt of the litter and was never over 10 lbs. Well, maybe about 12 at his biggest, but he was tall and big, scrawny and strong (so many silly adjectives). But then he had an accident (hit by a car and dragged himself home over days, crushed pelvis) and was just smaller afterwards. He made those sounds and other weird ones. They also like water and sunbathing and come when called. So I vote yours is half or all! I am jealous.
Also this blind cat book looks amazing. Thank you.
Has anyone seen this TED talk about gender violence? I can’t watch it but I’m curious – Jackson Katz?
Yeah, I mean sapient. And I’d add most primates to the list. You can teach a gorilla sign language. The only reason anyone is able to maintain the illusion that, say, a gorilla isn’t sapient is that they can’t talk.
Notice that this view does not inevitably lead the the stuff I was arguing against earlier.
Wait, what state do you live in? Because I’ve never hear dof a deal that good, and I’d liek to send my kids there.
But I’d like to see you provide some evidence that scholarships will fix the real cause of the lack of men in nursing, please. I’m a scientist. I like evidence. So show it.
@ bahumbugi
I’m so sorry about your cat. I lost mine at nearly 20 too, to cancer. That was nearly 2 years ago – still hurts.
The book about Homer is awesome. Written to be readable by young people too, so the language is fairly simple, but it’s still a great book. Was a Christmas present from Mr C.
Where I live 15K a year would barely cover rent.
bahumbugi, so sorry your kitty has gone! 🙁
LOL. STAHP, you are killing me with your made up shit.
What about troll disposability? That’d be useful if it were a thing.
@archeaholmes
“@Fade I can’t make a single argument why people should come first, except, “But, we’re human!””
Yeah, see, I tend to prioritize people who hav thoughts and are clearly sentient way over my dog, even though I love her.
“I dig how everyone thinks I’m a “he’.”
…then what are your preferred gender pronouns? (Nvm saw you answered) I mean, I certainly assumed you were a cis man the way you were talking about how boobs are totally commodities, you
could just beapparently are being a jerk about it regardless of gender.“I’m unapologetic for thinking the suffering of animals is not insignificant”
Ffs, it’s not saying their suffering is bad, it’s acting like we should care about animals as much as people.
“I don’t think people come first. There are millions of species, and they all want to live happily too.”
Fucking bugs, as valuable as people?
“On the other hand, buying meat is the single most cruel decision you can make, regarding animals, in your everyday life. It just is. That isn’t a helpful suggestion, as you say, But the way meat is produced is unspeakably cruel. I can start trailing links behind my posts, but you guys know this”
Fucking fuck? Buying meat is the most cruel thing you can do to animals? Fucking fuck? Ignoring that even if everybody wanted to stop buying animal products most people don’t have the fucking time or money… This is so full of shit. Buying meat: worst thing to do to animals. PETA killing a bunch of thm: bringing awareness to animal rights?
“Fade, it’s privilege. There isn’t a single good reason why people should come first except species privilege. We’re one species among millions. Read Peter Singer.”
This is the single dumbest thing here I have read that was not written by a troll…
“I have to say I feel like I’m challenging privilige here by sticking up other species.”
Fuck off. Tired of this and I wasn’t even here for it…
Oof. Thanks for the condolences, all. I didn’t mean to make it about his dying — more like celebrating how awesome those kitties are. google image search for maine coon kittens….the very best of google searches
@kittehs
“Marie, one point: animals (especially if we’re talking about the mammals we eat) are sentient. They feel pain, they have consciousness, and animal intelligence is way higher than is usually acknowledged. There are animals whose consciousness and sense of self is probably not that different from our own. I think “sapient” would describe what you’re saying better than “sentient”.”
I know animals have some intelligence, just didn’t think most were like people. Not like intelligence is a reason to be treating someon like shit, but gah. Just got sick of the people are no better than animals show… Also, ::blushes:: I have no idea what the difference between sapient and sentient is…
Marie: Yeah, it’s infuriating. Especially since someone doesn’t seem to grasp their own privilege in being able to be a vegetarian. There’s places in cities where a.) you can’t get good produce or veg options, and b.) if you can in those areas, they’re really fucking expensive.
You know part of what was frustrating me about the conversation? There are ways to make meat production less cruel. That is a thing that we can potentially make happen. And I don’t think that statements like the ones archeoholmes was making help with that goal, because if you present the situation as if all methods of raising and killing animals for food are the same in terms of the suffering they create, then why would people bother trying to push for the more humane ones?
It’s counterproductive, is what I was trying to say.
@cassandrasays
That makes sense. Im all for having animals raised in humane conditions, just lots of the other stuff was weir ding me out. :/ idk… I’m all rambly today. You guys feel free to tell me if you want me to drop the topic.
It’s OK, Marie. I about blew a lobe when I read some of that stuff.
GNL: You are a fool.
So you admit to having points about which you believe you cannot possibly be wrong.
What are the one’s about which you think you might (just possibly) be wrong?
Well because teacher are less underpaid that fry cooks or lawn mowers. It is a much safer and more fun environment as well.
What? Fry cook is less safe than nurse? Have you ever worked in an ER?
And you don’t want to give out very many of those scholarships (about 1,000 ought to be enough, right?), so you aren’t really trying to fix male poverty either.
Whites with the mental ability and will to attend college mostly do.
Citation sorely fucking needed.
But “The Patriarchy” hurts men to, an oppressive system is an oppressive system
Nope. That the side effect of Patriarchy hurts men doesn’t mean it is a system meant to oppress them.
And, while not all men can be at the top, men as a whole can be better off than women (say things like unequal pay for equal work, or fields which pay well and women are prevented from entering; or scholarship programs meant to perpetuate the idea that women deserve to be in low-paying fields like nursing: by making it easier for minority men to get lower paid/lower class jobs than the white dudes you think deserve the STEM/Finance/Political jobs).
You are a bigot. You are anti-equality. You want to oppress women.
Maleness means a life that is nothing but puppy dogs rainbows and unicorns.
Who said that? Ah right, you did. And you know it’s wrong, and you know we don’t believe it.
So you are a lying sack of fermenting weasel puke.
That’s the distinction that I kept trying to make, that it’s possible to care about animal welfare without accepting…all that other stuff. Kind of felt like Sisyphus for a while there.
Sentient: able to feel or perceive things.
Sapient: wise, or attempting to appear wise. (I didn’t make that wording up!)
Our species is homo sapiens, “wise man” (har har har, sez I).
I’d query the “no better” comment. That’s pretty much the sort of species-centric thing I think ArchaeoHolmes was getting at. If you said “no more important” then it’d be different: not many people are going to argue with that. But arguably humans as a species are a helluva lot worse than the other inhabitants of the planet. We’re the ones given to genocide among our own kind, causing extinctions deliberately or through carelessness, environmental devasation … yeah, I wouldn’t call us better, given our overall record in the last few thousand years.
The comment that comes to my mind re: cruelty is “The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?” which was said by Jeremy Bentham, who wasone of the first (early 19th century) to look seriously at animal rights. He made the point that the capacity to suffer is the thing, not whether a being is rational (and even if it were, how is rationality defined? By the way humans think? What if other intelligent animals, dolphins for instance, happen to think very differently from us? Different is not lesser).
@radical parrot
“I’m bored and tired, so I’m going to exercise my Troll-English translation skills. Let’s see how well I do.”
Accurate translations.
SOME animals are sentient. SOME animals feel pain. SOME animals experience anxiety. This issue isn’t black and white. There’s no reason to treat it as though it is. Animalia is a HUGE kingdom and many of the organisms in it can be bred and slaughtered without experiencing any of it, much less suffering. Others suffer horrible emotional trauma from upsets in their social groups.