Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
@Argenti
Best typo ever. I cracked up for like 5 minutes (I’m a lil high :$)
Oh lord. Am I the only one who finds PEMRA 2.0 to be even more annoying than the original?
If all men were willing to share their treats the MRM wouldn’t even exist.
(Most men are willing to share to some extent, which is why MRAs are few in number even though they are loud of screeching.)
Ooh ooh ooh! SEGUE!!! (OR SEGWAY, I DONT EVEN KNOW OR CARE)
Courtesy of the man-haters at SRS
I didn’t want to inadvertedly derail any more threads at manboobz so I said goodbye in a previous thread (I don’t think it’s a good idea to return and comment here before I properly educate myself in the subject of feminism), but since this is an open thread for potentially stupid things, I think I’ll return just for this once, hopefully for the last time.
What can I say? I am a glutton for punishment… Is there a manboobz anonymous?
Frankly, I’ve been trying to keep track of the thread to prevent myself from derailing the subject, but I see it in going in all sorts of directions, so I am getting very confused.
So, I’ll leave these points below for public humiliation, scrutiny, etc…
– Try as I might, I couldn’t find any feminist backed studies that supported Rape Shield Laws (in fact, I found a few feminist studies that actively opposed them). So the very idea that there is a whole army of army of angry feminists pushing for them is fundamentally wrong. Or I just suck at using Google Scholar.
-If false accusation rates are indeed as low as 0,3% then that’s all the more reason to consider the crime of false accusation especially heinous and apply much stricter sentences to those that commit it.
-Rape rate and False Accusation studies can only show the current numbers. As the cultural and sexual zeitgeist changes those numbers will most likely change as well. False accusation rates might be low now but that doesn’t mean they might not increase dramatically in the future. Which is why arguing for presumed guilt and removal of statute of limitations in rape accusation cases is a really bad idea.
-For that matter, studies which show Rape Rates and False Accusation Rates are ultimately useless and harmful. Studies which show how these change in response to time and applied legislation are far more appropriate in properly assesing the situation and taking more useful measures.
– I personally find things like the “Rapists Deserve Death Petition” particularly stupid and counter-productive. This has nothing to do with false rape accusation rates. It has mainly to do with the fact that it will actively encourage rapists to murder their victims. Punishment for rape should be high enough to discourage people from doing it, but not high enough to temp people to kill their victims in order to escape something they potentially consider worse (Death Penatly for instance).
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And since this is an open thread and all and somebody mentioned Domestic Violence somewhere…
-The (more often implied rather than actually said) argument that DV Shelters shouldn’t make provisions for male victims due to the potential low percentage that they represent frankly reminds me of the “Greek Society shouldn’t make provisions for Atheists/Gays/Transexuals because of how few they are” that the Greek Church uses over here (yes, the three are quite frequently conflated in this type of rhetoric), and I loathe it for the very same reason. The fact that there are very few male domestic violence victims doesn’t excuse the fact, that not ONE specialised male DV shelter exists, or that most existing DV shelters don’t, at the very least, have an extra set of paragraphs and procedures set in case a male victim of domestic violence does show up at their footstep.
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And I really want to discuss this issue with someone somehow…
I can’t bring myself to utterly dismiss the idea of misandry. While, so far, I didn’t encounter any male-hatred in places like Shakesville (I did actually encounter fear of men but that’s not here or there), I’ve encountered plenty of male-hatred in places outside of the feminist narrative.
For some reason, once you actually include other men into the equation, misandry suddenly becomes very, very real.
For example, most programs which demonize men are produced and written by other men. Most commercials with stupid men or bumbling dads or with women who hurt men (like that Chiquita Commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYCA9FykK04) are designed by other men. And this is done in order to attract more female viewers and get more women to buy products.
Maybe, instead of saying that “misandry isn’t real” feminism should start saying that “misandry is a male construct designed to manipulate women”? Or what I am observing in non-feminist spaces such as the commercial example above is not misandry?
Shorter lensy.
A. I believe that misandry is real and very damaging.
B. And it exists.
C. But not in feminist spaces.
And from this I conclude that feminism must be doing something wrong!
This is not the conclusion that a sensible person/a non-troll would reach.
I don’t like the word misandry, used in a serious way at least, because it draws a false equivalence to misogyny. If I were to rewrite “misandry is a male construct designed to manipulate women”, I would change it to “Rigid gender roles hurt people of every gender, and it hurts women much more than men”.
I also agree that it usually is other men who bash men who don’t fit a macho, hyper masculine image. It’s usually not women who laugh at men for doing traditionally feminine activities, but other men. That’s because the feminine coded activities are seen as lower status than activities coded as masculine. Some male feminists like Michael Kimmel and Michael Flood have discussed how this works, and its called hegemonic masculinity.
No, that’s in fact the exact opposite of the correct conclusion. Given that we know for certain that rape victims have a hard enough time trying to get through the system, and that rape is way way too common, why put another obstacle in the way that addresses something that barely ever happens? Make the system work, don’t make it harder for the victim.
Fear of something becoming a problem in the future when there is no indication that it would is not grounds for an argument. It’s paranoia that would make a bad system worse.
This makes no sense. The current “debate” is how bad the problem of rape is. Studies that measure how bad the problem is are exactly what are needed.
That is not the implication or the argument or even a thing. Feminists are fine with DV Shelters for male victims. What they are not ok with is designated female DV Shelters being forced to accomodate male victims, because of how it could allow abusers access to victims. (Though you should take this up with someone who actually knows anything about DV Shelters…)
Finally, what you are calling misandry perpetrated by men is not anything remotely comparable to misogyny. It’s a historical trend that seems to me to be a reaction to the feminist movement complaining about the lack of good representation of female characters. Female characters stayed as one-dimensional and flat as always, but instead of the motherly supportive role they became the hard-edged frigid counter to the lovable fool.
It’s almost like media as a whole said “Alright feminists, well we can’t make strong lead female roles cause that wouldn’t sell, but we can make are lead male characters dumber. The supporting female characters can be smarter now. That’s pretty much the same thing, right?” No… no it is not.
Dude, there is a difference between saying “We need to solve all workplace deaths, not only the ones that effect men, but men will be primarily benefitted from it because they suffer from it the most* and “we need to solve all wage gap”. The wage gap is sexist on nature. You cannot solve it by applying it to both genders (unless maybe you were doing wage gap for disparities between white men and MoC which I assume exist b/c of the wage disparities between white women and WoC and white men and WoC)
*assuming gnl isn’t using bogus statistics.
Okay, look, I’ll admit you actually apologized for touching a sore spot with my depression which was a good thing for a troll to do, but devil’s advocate does not work around here. either stick with your view and defend it or don’t bring it up. Right now it seems like you want to be able to say whatever w/o consequences and cover it up with “I was just perspectiving” or w/e.
Care to translate this to english, gnl? What kinds of things are you blabbering about that favor women? Not dying in the workplace due to being kept out of dangerous jobs b/c of sexism? Being hired in more women-dominated jobs that also coincidentally pay a lot less than male-dominated jobs? Tell me, please. I really want to know.
Exactly. Gnl, your shtick here seems to be “patriarchy hurts men sometimes, and also rape culture isn’t real, ps, let me show you my ass”
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH He called it the death gap!! Man, I already told you trolls not to make me laugh b/c of my back. 😉
Okay, see, the wage gap pays different FOR THE SAME JOB. Do men and women die at different rates (for the same amount of people, not like 100 men and 10 women) IN THE SAME JOB?
shorter gnl
Omigod, lensman, fuck off. If they’re that low, how about we worry about REAL PROBLEMS?! Okay? You can’t say “there is an epidemic of cheezeit addiction” or w/e and demand that you take medical funds away from alchohol and drug addiction to fund cheeze it addiction if only 1 out of 1000 people is addicted to cheezeits. even if the intention is to do good, all it does is ignore the real epidemics.
A) is anybody legally lobbying to get rapists the death penalty? Right now, we have enough trouble convicted more than 3 percent of them.
B) Please stop blaming rapists’s crimes on the people trying to stop rape
Dear men: the negative affects of the patriarchy are not misandry. It may seem hard to know, because you’ve been coddled in everything gender-related since birth, but really.
I just typed up this long Victorian time traveller view on women in the workforce, and lost it! Short version:
Am I to understand that in to strange era, mining work is no longer a sector of the workforce limited to those unfortunate enough to be in a work house? That your orphans are cared for, and, in fact, men are even desiring entry into such work? Work! Pray tell, when did anything women do naturally become work? Why, child care is a woman’s natural duty, men are hardly suited to such tasks, being capable of higher thought! Women are not suited to math and science, they’re capable of little more than raising children, sewing, other such household tasks. To think that you actually get paid more for dangerous employment, instead of it being done by people with nothing else standing between them and destitution! Perhaps that is why women no longer mine? Ah, you tell me that they do since mine, however mining is no longer limited to the lowest classes of people, and, being a task which provides compensation for the dangers, has become work that men desire so much that women are no longer seen as suitable? The mind of the commoner is not proper, they are only suited to such lowly work as mining! What is this you say? Women are actually seen as in suitable for dangerous work? Why, that almost makes sense, as I said, they are best suited to household tasks requiring little thought. Wait, what’s that? Men are requesting access to nursing and child care? You actually teach children of all classes? However can this be? Men are no more suited to child care than women are to complex thought! It’s lowly work, best done by women, why ever would men even want to care for children?! Next thing you know, women will want to do math and science, and not the simple kinds required for horticulture and sewing!
Alas, it appears the case that women are doing math and science tasks, why everyone knows that encouraging women to think will only lead to madness, hysteria, let women think and next you know you’ll be on your way to bedlam!
After my borked up long, long post up there, I don’t feel to keen on writing overmuch.
But I do have one bit:
Lensman is right.
Crimes that happen rarely need to be punished more severely. If a crime has a low occurence, it must be because the crime is incredibad. Ultrasuck. Morblow.
That’s why I’ve discovered an algorithm for deciding the most henious crimes. The Offender
Performed [This Illegal Sexual Activity] while [Targeting these groups for speech] all while furiously [ingesting these high class drugs], moving rapidly towards [Specified government zone with restricted access] whereupon the offender [improper use of vehicles and turnips] and in the mean did the best the offender could to [prank call important person] – all this was done while wearing [garment symbolizing problematic history] and listening to [Specific song symbolically tied with problematic history]
Gentlemen, Ladies, Those Who Aren’t The First Two, Cats.
I give you:
The Ultimate crime
-Rape rate and False Accusation studies can only show the current numbers. …
No. They also show trends. Moreover, in any case, most rapes go unreported (about 85% are unreported).
It’s an original sin!
GNL, your disingenuous lil’ slip is showing, you should try to get you stories straight:
Really? Didn’t you say earlier that restricting BC would “rebalance” something or other?
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
@Hellkell
You can’t point out what gnl said, that’s cherry-picking-quote-mining
Fade: it’s also misandry!
If you listened to him more carefully you’d agree with him. Clearly the fault lies with you. Understanding what he’s saying and thinking he’s full of shit is not an option.
@pemra
“However, I might note that many suicide attempts are more cries for help than a genuine wish to die… could women do this much more often?”
Fuck off pemra. A fucking suicide attempt is a fucking suicide attempt. I don’t want you to go around psychoanalyzing people like this, even more so since all of your theories smell so bad of shit I suspect you pulled them from out of your ass.
“People need to fucking stop with this “suicide attempts are a cry for help” bullshit, by which they actually mean “people who unsuccessfully attempt suicide are lying liars who lie for attention.” Of all the extremely gross, baseless shit people say about suicide, this is probably the grossest. Where did that fucking meme even come from.
By the way, manu people who have attempted suicide do need help and support. That’s not a bad or a shameful thing. It doesn’t make them fakers. Ugh. UGH.”
Yes. Quoted for truth. That meme needs to end ASAP.
@gnl
“sorry, but I don’t see equality here. Either the choices to have sex and use a condom are enough that people have made the choice to be parents. OR these are not enough choices. Should people have more choices?”
Let’s make a deal: you don’t whine about cis women being able to give birth and I won’t whine about men being stronger than women on average. I’m holding up my end here dude…
@howardbannister
“Reeeeeaaaaaaaally? For serious? Men are just completely incapable of parental abandonment? Because our great and wonderful child support system works all the time?”
Wow I missed that :/ wonder if he just thinks men shouldn’t have to help out raising kids, so if the man stays its extra….
“@Fade, LBT:
So, I guess there’s a club for people who were all depressed and had suicidal ideation? And, um, hi?
I was super-depressed in college. My best friend died, and I probably would have killed myself if I could have figured out how to make it look like an accident. But it would have devestated my family, and so I didn’t”
@Howardbannister, fade, lbt: Fu… Internet hugs for all of you who want them…
@gnl
“Ok. so, name me one way that males are not better off. Name me one way that whites are not better off. What are some of the ways that men are worse off than women to support your claim that “One doesn’t have to be better off in every single respect in order to be privileged””
I swer I typed up a list of these last time I responded to you, which you managed to ignore… Not bothering to respond again, besides, look at all the fucking white males in the govt, and tell me how on earth that is a result of an equal society.
@fade
“Stay respectful towards people who are religious, or the bible. B/c I care about respect towards (non misogynistic) people; I don’t really care if people don’t respect a piece of paper.”
C’mon fade, the bible is made of many pieces of paper, not just one XD
@pemra
“I take MRA sites with a grain of salt, too. It’s all spin and ideology, ugh”
I take mra sites with a grain of salt too, that’s why I say I’m a mra right in my user name
/paraphrasing.
@gnl
“So, your completely off base. Try again.”
Just because you say a thing does not make it true.
@lensman
“-If false accusation rates are indeed as low as 0,3% then that’s all the more reason to consider the crime of false accusation especially heinous and apply much stricter sentences to those that commit it.”
….why? Also, how bout we work on punishing rape, which is by far more common, ,ore severely first?
“False accusation rates might be low now but that doesn’t mean they might not increase dramatically in the future”
But what if something that appears to be in no danger of happening starts happening? We should make all our laws around unlikely outcomes.
“-The (more often implied rather than actually said) argument that DV Shelters shouldn’t make provisions for male victims due to the potential low percentage that they represent frankly reminds me of the “Greek Society shouldn’t make provisions for Atheists/Gays/Transexuals because of how few they are” that the Greek Church uses over here (yes, the three are quite frequently conflated in this type of rhetoric), and I loathe it for the very same reason”
Because men, a a dominant group, are just like atheists, gay people, and trans people. Also, the reason women only DVD shelters don’t take men is because they don’t want abusive men trying to find their partners there. Pretty sure there are men’s shelters men can go to.
“The data shows that the wage gap is caused by gender and race”
incorrect. The data shows that there is a very strong corrolation, not causation. Even assuming causation in the gender gap. This does not prove discrimination.
“You cannot solve it by applying it to both genders”
I disagree it can ONLY be solved by applying it to both genders. So long as Teachers are 98% women, there will always be a wage gap. We need to desegreate both women’s jobs and men’s jobs. Gender problems can only ever be solved by taking both genders (and people that are outside the gender bianary) into account. Identifying a “Woman’s Issue” not a “Gender issue” prevents it from ever being solved.
APPPEEEXXX FALLLACCCCYYYYY!QQ!!!!
Sorry, I just got channelled by a whiny mra
GNL, only a fool would take your ideas on “gender problems” seriously. Go peddle your shit on your own blob.
Hey, gnl, how about showing statistics that men die more than women IN THE SAME JOBS
because that’s what the wage gap means (except with money instead of death)
I’m hoping he’ll be dumb enough to comment where he’s explicitly not welcome and get his dumb ass banned at this point. Boring troll is boring.
@gnl
““The data shows that the wage gap is caused by gender and race”
incorrect. The data shows that there is a very strong corrolation, not causation. Even assuming causation in the gender gap. This does not prove discrimination.”
Citation or your full of shit.
Wait, no. I was actually confused for a while there.
Genderneutrallanguage, uhm… You do… know what the wage gap is, right? Female teachers and male engineers being paid differently is not the wage gap. That’s… that’s just wage. Like, the money people pay for a job. It will vary between sectors.
The wage gap is male engineers and female engineers being paid differently, all other variables being the same.
It, uh, it… It.. itk ind of *Is* a gendered issue. Per definition. It’s defined as the gap by which males, in the same field with the same level of experience and education, earn on average more than women, in the same field, with the same level of experience and education.
desegrating jobs won’t help, it’s not a participation issue, it’s a payment issue.
Wait.
Did you just seriously try to argue that all jobs should be paid the same, or am I being oversensitive and reading too much into it?
ah. Argh. Araaragh. My brain. The gibbering non-thoughts are back. The worms! I thought I had taken my Anti. Minter shot but no. No! I can hear the colour purple! I can see infinity! Smell pain. It smells like planetary orbits over fixed bodies.
You did this, gnl! YOUUUUUUUU!