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Oh, Men’s Rights subreddit, will you ever learn? (Probably not.)

Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”

When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.

Consider this post:

Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.

Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:

Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:

Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.

Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.

Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.

The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.

And then there’s this post:

I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!

Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?

EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:

Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:

[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.

Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.

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KristinMH
10 years ago

My womanly day only started about two hours ago, because I was up until 4 in the womanly morning with the baby. Other than that it resembles Skyal’s day. Only without the older children.

katz
10 years ago

My womanly day has all been database engineering so far. There may be a turkey sandwich in the future.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
10 years ago

I’m no Islamaphobe by any stretch, but the culture of women there is the only time I wonder if something is wrong with men genes. Is there any place that popped up, any society where they just got it right? No, it’s the human condition. Humans suck.

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

I wonder if we’ll ever “get off the ground” as a species, since so many people (both men and women) don’t question anything, including all of these ideas about gender. No. They just accept all of these attitudes and say it is either from “God” or “Nature”. Both “God” and “Nature” are human fantasies tagged on things as an authority to silence questioning.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

My womanly day involved some not nice things. Some nice things and a bottle of Diet Wild Cherry Pepsi.

katz
10 years ago

Both “God” and “Nature” are human fantasies tagged on things as an authority to silence questioning.

Boggi, how many times do people need to tell you to go fuck yourself?

Kyrie
Kyrie
10 years ago

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

WTF?

So, is that true for other kind of oppression, or just one? Why not say that slaves are also to blame for accepting their state?

I don’t mean no woman is sexist, or that no woman participate in maintaining patriarchy. And maybe it’s just a formulation issue, but frankly, “victims of oppression are to blame for complicity accepting that oppression” doesn’t sound anything like “people are to blame when they contribute to the oppression” to me.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

Fuck off.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
10 years ago

Glad I’m offensive to everyone!

Kyrie
Kyrie
10 years ago

And I’m pretty sure nature is very real and I’m very sure many people (biologists and the such) would disagree it silences questioning.
Actually, theologists would probably also disagree that the idea of god silences questioning.

Kyrie
Kyrie
10 years ago

Why Boggi, was it your goal?

katz
10 years ago

Boggi, are you seriously trolling us?

Do you really think this will end well?

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

I’m glad you’re glad, Boggi. Was this your intent from the beginning? It’s not like you haven’t said problematic things before.

Need to know
10 years ago

Boggi- I wish, in my womanly way, you would stop and think before you type something so offensive.

AVT
AVT
10 years ago

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

I mean, this is not a complicated concept. Really.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
10 years ago

@katz

When my “God” and “Nature” comment I didn’t mean to some asshole atheist (even though I am one).

What I meant was to show how people use such ideas as authorities to dictate how something “must be” or “essentially is” so and so.

Men and women are like this and/or must be like this because God said so!

Men and women are like this blah blah blah because Nature! SCIENCE! (Yes, atheists too use this bullshit reasoning to “justify” their sexism. Do you think I’m not aware of that?)

And so forth and so forth.

@hellkell

My whole “women allowed themselves to be oppressed” was bad. I now realize how that was fallacious.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
10 years ago

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

This is what I really meant to say. Men aren’t the only ones to, as you put it, support the patriarchy. Women who do that are also contributing to oppression.

Like one of our good friends cristy0misty, a woman “turned out well”.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

I wonder if we’ll ever “get off the ground” as a species, since so many people (both men and women) don’t question anything, including all of these ideas about gender. No. They just accept all of these attitudes and say it is either from “God” or “Nature”. Both “God” and “Nature” are human fantasies tagged on things as an authority to silence questioning.

Well, I’m glad you’re smarter than like 98% of the human race. How did you get that way? Figure it was luck?

In this one thread, you’ve:
1) Used “bitch” as an insult
2) Said that being womanly is bad
3) Said you have some sort of bizarre spiritual theory of gender
4) Said that trans/androgynous people are magical snowflakes who transcend gender for your personal enlightenment
5) Said women let themselves be oppressed (you did back down on that one, thanks)
6) Acted like now you’re the mega-enlightened one here?

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

My whole “women allowed themselves to be oppressed” was bad. I now realize how that was fallacious.

Oh really? What made you see the light? You sound just like MRAL backpedaling there.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
10 years ago

In this one thread, you’ve:
1) Used “bitch” as an insult
2) Said that being womanly is bad
3) Said you have some sort of bizarre spiritual theory of gender
4) Said that trans/androgynous people are magical snowflakes who transcend gender for your personal enlightenment
5) Said women let themselves be oppressed (you did back down on that one, thanks)
6) Acted like now you’re the mega-enlightened one here?

Are you saying I’m really a chauvinist asshole while not realizing it?

darksidecat
10 years ago

If men are to blame for oppressing women then women are also to blame for complicity accepting that oppression.

What the fuck? Are you fucking serious? Internalized oppression isn’t the same fucking thing as the privileged oppressing the oppressed. If we beat you down so far you hate yourself too, the hatred is your fault?

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

This is also crap. First, the fact that we all take part in oppressive systems does not take away the individual responsibility for oppression. While I leave open for the moment the question of individual responsibility for privileged status per se, the day to day acts of oppression the privileged engage in should not fucking be considered absolved. Secondly, equivocating internalized oppression with the oppression? That’s total and absolute fucking bullshit. You think a queer kid sitting in their room hating themselves is as bad as the hetero kids that beat them while shouting out slurs? That they are “enforcing” homophobia in ways that are in any way, shape, or form comparable?

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

Are you saying I’m really a chauvinist asshole while not realizing it?

Well, that depends whether you realize it.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

*gets popcorn*

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
10 years ago

Oh really? What made you see the light? You sound just like MRAL backpedaling there.

I explained myself already! In response to your other quote:

Er, individual men are not to blame for oppressing women, and I’m not interested in anyone who says they are. The patriarchy is supported by both men and women, though men (in most cases, and all else being equal) wield more power and thus it is mostly men that serve as the patriarchy’s primary enforcers.

This is what I really meant to say. Men aren’t the only ones to, as you put it, support the patriarchy. Women who do that are also contributing to oppression.

Like one of our good friends cristy0misty, a woman “turned out well”.

katz
10 years ago

What I meant was to show how people use such ideas as authorities to dictate how something “must be” or “essentially is” so and so.

Bullshit. You said God is a human fantasy, and that’s exactly what you meant. Now you’re just trying to handwave it because people are calling you out, like Rush Limbaugh. You do this exact same thing every time:

1. Say some deliberately offensive thing.

2. Double down and defend it.

3. Backtrack and pretend that wasn’t what you really meant.

4. Apologize, say that you were totally wrong and realize that now, and try to change the subject.

We are very patient here, but if you keep acting like MRAL, you’re going to get treated like him.

BoggiDWurms
BoggiDWurms
10 years ago

Well, that depends whether you realize it.

Perhaps I’ve just internalized a lot of sexism, and I’m fighting to destroy it. At least I never lie about what I really feel.

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