This whole “mocking misogyny” thing? Apparently we’re doing it all wrong. Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights Subreddit, jmnzz has helpfully explained what misogyny is, and what it isn’t.
Misogyny: The hatred of women
Not misogyny: Bad taste jokes about rape/abuse/etc. Logic. Counterarguments. Disagreements. Harsh language. Saying cunt. Saying bitch. Calling women names. Being pro-life. Calling every woman who accuses a man of rape a liar.
Why are none of these things misogyny? Because you do not have to hate women to do any or all of these things. You might, but not everyone who does them hate women.
Seriously. What on earth is misogynist about calling all the fucking cunts who accuse men of rape of being goddamn lying bitches? When guys call women lying whores, they do it out of love.
But hey, in all seriousness, I have to give Maggie props here for actually raising the issue of misogyny in r/mensrights.
NOTE: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN …..
Disagreeing with someone means you think they are wrong about something. If you didn’t think they were wrong, there is no disagreement. It is sort of built into the notion. Political views don’t get a special pass from criticism or disagreement, quite the contrary, as they involve the public sphere and generally applicable laws, they warrant more criticism and more scrutiny.
@Ami: You left out “Your bargaining posture is highly dubious.”
Unicron is such a boss during that first meeting with Megatron. “No, the point is you’re a fool!” It sort of mirrors the Starscream/Megatron relationship but with Megatron in the subordinate position, and demonstrates that the only hierarchy in evil is one of those who disdain and those who attempt to overthrow.
I can attest to this not being true.
Since the thread is already completely derailed, I hope it won’t bother anyone if I speak of something else: I just saw a great feminist play. No, I don’t live live in Sweden, and it wasn’t the scum manifesto. Actually, the play, Back to the root, was written and directed by my theater teacher, and it was just fantastic. If I hadn’t been a feminist waking in, I would probably have been one walking out of the theater.
There was five characters: Sigmund, Jesus, Scheherazade, Angela Davis and Eva. The first four meeting for a feminist seminar (we never see the organizers, just them) and founding Eva sleeping in a bush with her tights down. Eva and Jesus are a bit fuzzy on the beginning of their lives. We hear each the characters’ story, which are full of pain, of joy, of fights and of shame, for what they did or did not do.
The entire play was a wonderful mix of emotions, humor and reflexion, I wish we could see such things more often.
NWO, the SCUM play has been around for a while, it’s nothing new. Kind of like Chicago.
NWO is actually somewhat accurate (for a change) about one scene in Vagina Monologues (it’s cut in many performances, and the ‘good rape’ line is rarely left in for obvious reasons). He’s also totally right that the love and lack of criticism of Vag Monologues is UBIQUITOUS in femi–oh wait:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina_monologues#Criticism_of_The_Vagina_Monologues
Try again plz.
I am just pissed that she shot Andy Warhol. Not cool.
Didn’t Soundwave carry smaller transformers in him? He should be Hengist and all the little transformers are his sock puppets.
NWO:What’s really wrong with accusations against a thing called man, a biological accident, a bunch of conditioned reflexes captured in the twilight between human and ape which sometimes fucks corpses and loves death.
http://manboobz.com/2011/11/07/twitter-hashtag-of-the-day-mencallmethings-a-catalogue-of-horrendous-misogynist-shit-sent-to-women-online/comment-page-4/#comment-80136
I had to have my son help me understand the Transformer references. Then we had this conversation:
Me: If Mommy was a Transformer, which one would she be?
Son: Unicron.
Me: Oh no, he’s a bad guy. Why am I Unicron?
Son: Because you have the ability to transform into a planet.
Me: I do? Holy cow, I didn’t know that.
Son: Yeah.
Apparently, I am Unicron because I have the ability to turn into a planet. Don’t ask me to prove it. Just take my word on it.
Lauralot | November 12, 2011 at 8:04 am
Oh god, don’t make Brandon Soundwave. I love Soundwave. His voice is way too cool for Brandon.
Can I be Bumblebee? I love Bumblebee,
I didn’t want to assign nebody Bumblebee cuz… he’s Bumblebee and he gets foiled by locked human doors xD But sure you can be Bumblebee! 😀
Actually I should prolly be Jetfire given that I’m nice to everybody, and I think everybody is my friend even if they’re being mean to me xD
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/8/89/SGRavage-EvanGauntt.jpg/300px-SGRavage-EvanGauntt.jpg
Actually that is me >_> Ravage from the Shattered Glass continuity!
That’s… Beast Wars xD Maybe we should flip the sides for Beast Wars b/c Silverbolt is like the definition of a Nice Guy(tm) XD
Except Silverbolt was successful. Also awesome. Not Dinobot awesome, but then, no one in the franchise is.
“I think the word most people are looking for when they react to most of the things I listed above is, asshole. But because feminists have slung the word around so much at anyone who does or says anything they disagree with, anyone who reads something that says anything bad about women, they automatically think “misogyny” when it really isn’t.
The Reddit blog was right on in terms of the misunderstanding of misogyny by women. As a man who identifies himself as a Mens Rights Advocate, and part of the larger Mens Rights Movement, the MRM is misunderstood. Feminists seem to think it is a bunch of man hating, whining, hateful , misogynist guys. That is a false assumption.
The Mens Rights Movement allows men to vent and criticize women and feminism. Just as women have been hurt by men, men have been hurt by women. Before the internet, men had no option, now with the internet age, men can form organizations via the web to criticize women in a collective manner. It may come across as misogyny to women but it really is allowing men to vent against women who have hurt them in relationships or against feminist values they do not agree with.
The Mens Rights movement focuses on advocating for equality for men in all areas of society. The MRM has vocalized about giving Fathers more rights for custody of their children. It has fought for a National Commission to help troubled young adolescent males.It has advocated mens health issues such as testicular cancer. It has advocated for solution to homelessness and suicide deaths both issues disproportionately facing men. It has called for “male studies programs to be enacted by colleges similar to womens studies programs. It has criticized how men are portrayed on TV sitcoms as stupid and lazy,
Most importantly, MRA”S are angry not at women and feminists but how male gender roles, such as a man should not cry, have been reinforced by women in our society. The concept of male as protector and that a man should not cry has to do with the man being able to protect a woman,. He should be able to control his emotion in order to protect a woman. This has constricted many men to deny their feeling causing ill health. If the need to be strong to protect a woman is removed, a an would have the liberty to cry and bee free with is emotion.
The MRM is not misogynistic. It is just giving men a forum and voice to advocate that traditional gender roles have been hurting men. Just as Feminism has criticized gender roles that have hurt women. Mens anger at women is based on that women reinforce traditional male roles in their individual lives. The roles of male as protector,provider, not crying, are subtly rein forced by women. This is why men are angry.
Two good non misogynistic MRM site is http://ncfm.org/ and http://mankindproject.org/
Yoni ki baat.
Statement assumes facts not in evidence.
Statement assumes facts not in evidence.
Horse shit. We didn’t need the internet for US liberals to start flinging misogynist (and transphobic) slurs at Anne Coulter, for UK liberals to throw similar at Margaret Thatcher. And that’s just one example of the extreme shit that occasionally provokes a negative reaction by society in general. Shit, son, how many “Women, am I right?”-esque punchlines have you heard in your life? Because I can damn near guarantee you have heard women being insulted well before the internet’s widespread popularity, unless you are under 14.
Yes, we’re aware that you don’t care about equality; fathers possess roughly equivalent standing within court, when factors are equal. That’s why fathers win about half the custody cases they fight for. Fathers appear to come off worse at a surface-depth glance because not only do they have a strong tendency not to fight for custody, but they’re also substantially more likely not to be the primary caretaker, and family court prioritizes the primary caretaker. And in a misogynist society that says a woman’s place is *still* in the home, that will generally be the mother.
Quite frankly, men winning about half of the cases they fight for seems suspicious to me, given how few men actually are the primary caretakers. If you wanted equality, you would fight against narratives that say dads’ responsibility to their kids is mostly the bills and sports for sons (and glaring at daughters’ boyfriends).
Funny, we’ve had dozens of you trolls and this is the first I’ve heard of your ‘fight’ in this.
The first half of this is kind of true, in that you like to use that as a cudgel against feminists (Not that you do any useful work on it). But those two statistics are deceptive. Men are disproportionate numbers of the *single* homeless; homeless women are typically accompanied by children, and thus are labelled “Homeless families”, for one.
For the other, if you actually check statistics for suicides slightly more carefully, you’ll notice that women attempt suicide more frequently; the only reason men have more suicide deaths is that they tend to choose more violent suicide methods, which have higher rates of successful completions.
That’s called “Social Studies”. Did you not notice the total sausage fest that is your history classes, for instance?
And still the bright center of the universe despite it; your myopia is stunning.
Did you just absolve your own gender of its gender policing? Because that’s rather absurd, especially since people, in general, value men’s opinions more highly than a woman’s.
Also an apparent inability to look in the mirror. This is a valid reason to be angry at society, but not women.
“Feminist brainwashing”, that took less than 10 seconds to discard ncfm from any such possible list. 30 seconds finds that ncfm is A: not MRM affiliated, B: may be a moneymaking scam, C: still reinforcing traditional masculine gender roles, just less so. But at least it’s not directly misogynist that I can see. Not good, but not misogynist. That’s kind of the best I can expect out of an MRA, isn’t it?
Please, tell me you were joking! We live in a frigging patriarchy, but somehow, men never were able to form an organization? What stopped them? Internet is a great tool, sure, but activists didn’t waited for the invention of the internet to try to change their society. By saying that, you acknowledge one of the main critic (just after the misogyny) that is done to MRAs: you are a bunch of men complaining on line about women, not activists.
“The MRM is not misogynistic.”
Then I’ve got news for for you: there is an awful lot of troll on the net that claims to be part of your group and spends most of their time not advocating for men or equality, but against women and promotes misogyny. You might want to talk to them… ^_^’
ncfm => first thing I see: “feminist brainwashing” Yeah, sure, totally a non hateful website.
My mistake, that’s 30 seconds for the mankind project to be shown as not very good. I made that mistake because I haven’t slept yet
” It has fought for a National Commission to help troubled young adolescent males.”
Funny, we’ve had dozens of you trolls and this is the first I’ve heard of your ‘fight’ in this.
Rutee there was a conference in 2007 on the trouble of adolescent males http://www.trueequality.com/
I am aware Dr. Warren Farrell has lobbied for a national commission for male youth. Boys are lagging behind girls academically, and in college enrollments.
As far as male suicide. yes women attempt suicide more but the fact is 80% of successful suicides are men.Studies have shown divorced men have a much higher rate of suicide after a divorce than a woman does.Usually after a divorce, the woman has the emotional support with the kids and her showing her sadness to her friends. Men are more lonelier after a divorce, and have a troubled time expressing feelings. Part of the MRM is trying to change this with projects like post divorce groups for men.
I made the point:
Mens anger at women is based on that women reinforce traditional male roles in their individual lives.
Rutee responded:
Also an apparent inability to look in the mirror. This is a valid reason to be angry at society, but not women.
Rutee you agree with me, women reinforce the traditional male gender role in this society. The whole “knight in shining armor” male as protector of women who cannot show emotion is reinforced by women. MRM is working to change this.
Also, more men are homeless than women. On Veterans day, TV stations had news stories about the perils of male homeless veterans. This is 2011 and still we have a male only draft. The MRM is trying to make the law change where women and men will both be drafted.
Lastly, Rutee the Mens Rights Movement has been around way before the internet.A pivotal MRM book called Iron John by Robert Bly was written in the mid 1980’s before the internet. Now thankfuly with the internet you have dozens of good MRM sites such as The Spearhead, A Voice for Men, and Feminist Critics.
The http://mankindproject.org/ which you criticized after perusing it for 30 seconds is a solid MGTOW organization. You should read the website link thoroughly before you criticize it.
Oh, yes. AVfM is so into into activism for men, if by activism you mean posting the info of women they don’t like. No hate or misogyny there or at the Spearhead at all.
/sarcasm
@ HeroicMan
My friend you are totally misguided. If men subscribe to gendered notions like “boys don’t cry” it is not the fault of anyone other than themselves. Feminists in particular, and I’d suggest women in general, believe the opposite of what you are saying. Women like men who can be emotional and not bottle things up. Isn’t that what is normally said? Feminists reject the notion that men need to protect women. Your stance makes literally no sense.
The MRM isn’t a movement; it’s a collection of people who thrive in their anger and sense of isolation. Their previously meaningless lives take on some semblance of utility because they have a “cause”. The more thoughtful MRAs identify “feminists” (though they choose not to understand the term) as the enemy, the more common (and crass) MRAs just blame women for their ills. According to MRA commentary the following is true; 9/11 was caused by “feminist governance”, there is an Indian style “Caste system” in the western world with women at the top, all men are controlled by women (because women “control sexual pleasure and reproduction), school buses being painted a certain colour emasculate boys, “feminists” have infiltrated the (socialist) governments in the US (and UK) to wage a war against boys/men, there is no gender paygap and women earn just as much as men – but despite this, women can still have a man put in prison whenever they want and take everything he owns.
MRAs live in a deluded, unpleasant fantasy world. I’d strongly suggest you cease your involvement with these stunted oddballs and move on with your life.
For my part, the MRM is purely a source of comedy. The more ridiculous they are, the better. They will never be taken seriously.
Farrell doesn’t identify as an MRA.
More to the point, boys are lagging behind girls in academics and college enrollments in spite a school system already biased towards them. And quite frankly, boys have less economic incentive to succeed in school; a woman with her master’s or PHD will still be outearned by a man with a BA. A woman with her high school diploma is likely to be out-earned by a man who hasn’t completed high school.
Because you pick more successful methods to do it. What do you believe is the actual problem, and not the statistic you try to bludgeon feminists with?
Only if you look solely at successful suicides. See above point.
You mean like Parents without Partners, off the top of my head? That predates your ‘movement’ (more like a collective internet whine) by at least a decade.
No, you illiterate twit; I said SOCIETY does. This does include women as well, but in a lesser role (AFAIK most gender policing of binary individuals is done by members of the same sex). I also stated, in no uncertain terms, that you CAN NOT begin this discussion without also discussing men’s role in gender policing (As, indeed, feminism has with the gender policing of women). And yet, you continue to target women in this. That’s because Men’s Rights Idiots aren’t actually interested in helping men.
No, we don’t. We are in zero threat of a draft. The US will not even support higher taxes in service of our imperialistic wars; a draft is out of the question. The selective service act is little more than political posturing. Until either the US becomes more bloodthirsty, or some sort of science fiction technology that nullifies nukes becomes real, there is no threat of a draft, because there is no threat of the US fighting a war to protect itself.
Not when you count homeless families, at which point homeless single mothers are actually counted.
Yeah, I believe that. Except I don’t. Y’all are too busy talking about, when discussing women and war, how useless women are in war. That’s besides the point; a number of feminists are pushing so that no one will *ever* be drafted (in the USA). The others would *also* like women to be drafted. Hint: It is patriarchal bullshit that keeps US women out of combat roles.
Dude, they’re still pushing harmful masculinity, centered on a ‘warrior’ ideal. Also, it relies on a lot of wrong to support itself, but that’s a seperate issue. Then again, maybe not, GIGO after all.
@HeroicMan
To isolate one of your points;
“Mens anger at women is based on that women reinforce traditional male roles in their individual lives.”
Which women are these? Can you cite examples of women doing this, particularly feminists? Can you prove that these are the norm and that women criticizing “traditional male roles” is abnormal? Otherwise your point, like the MRM, is care before horse.
MRA is angry. MRA can’t relate to women. MRA is scared of women. MRA is rejected by women. MRA feels emasculated by women. MRA, because of this, hates women. MRA needs a reason to justify this hate. MRA feels emasculated therefore women have attacked his masculinity therefore… etc etc
My man, seriously, calm down and rationalise. I seriously doubt that there is a problem with “women” reinforcing traditional males roles. There isn’t even a problem with society reinforcing traditional male roles. What is a traditional male role? It changes and evolves.
As for the Mankind Project. I have been aware of this for some time. It isn’t, as an organisation (in my experience) anti-feminist – rather it is against everything that the MRM is for; anger/hatred of women, misplaced feelings of persecution and instead wants men to do what feminists have asked of them for some time; reject violence and anger and instead try to be more in tune with their feelings.
To every feminist on this blog, please do not fall into the trap of dismissing every male organisation cited by an MRA. Some male organisations loathe the MRM.
HeroicMan, if you are a Warrior Brother, you should be able to see, and feel contempt for AVfM, Spearhead, RedditMensRights et al – they are the true enemies of men and masculinity. They have nothing to offer but frustration, paranoia and lies.