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bad boys beta males douchebaggery evil women men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny nice guys PUA thug-lovers violence against men/women

Lady Killers 2: Electric Boogaloo

Well, here’s a new twist on the whole “women love assholes” thing. According to the blogger known as Vox Day – a sort of right-wing/PUA hybrid – the best way for a fella to capture the attention of a comely lass is to rape and murder another comely lass. Yep. He seems to have confused “Game” — that is, pick-up artist trickery — with The Most Dangerous Game. Oh, Vox stops short of recommending that his readers actually go out and murder women, but he argues this women-love-killers argument in all seriousness:

I don’t believe I could recommend this as a strategy for most men, but it is surely educational to learn that raping and killing a woman is demonstrably more attractive to women than behaving like a gentleman. And women, before all the inevitable snowflaking commences, please note that there is absolutely nothing to argue about here. It is an established empirical fact.

His empirical “proof” of this assertion? The fact that some Japanese women have set up online fan clubs for Tatsuya Ichihashi, an accused murderer.

From this one data point, Vox seems to have made a somewhat hasty generalization based on the notion that all women are the same person – that is, if one woman thinks or does something, all women think or do that same thing.

Yes, there are  women — and men — who find themselves attracted to vile human beings. Some women idolize murderers. Some men think Ann Coulter is hot.  That doesn’t mean that all women idolize murderers or that all men want to get it on with Ms. Coulter. It just means that some people have really, really, really appalling taste.

But let’s just assume for a moment that Vox’s basic premise is true: all women love violent psycopaths,. If you’ want to get with the ladies, but aren’t so hard up for a date that you’re actually willing to resort to homicide, is there some other way you convey what a violent psychopath you are to the ladies of the world? Yep, says Vox:

[I]f you are being introduced to a woman you find attractive, she will be more attracted to you if you slap her in the face without warning and walk away without explanation than if you smile and tell her that you are very pleased to meet her. Now this, being a mere hypothesis, can be argued. And tested, if you’re feeling especially scientific this weekend.

I really hope none of his readers take him up on this.

Is Vox being altogether serious about this? Yes and no. About the idea that women love killers? Absolutely serious. About actually assaulting women? He’s a bit more cagey. On his blog Alpha Game, Vox elaborates:

Women find it sexier for you to rape and kill a woman than putting them on pedestals and being a nice guy. I’m not saying that you should rape and kill anyone, but I would recommend, at the very least, dropping the nice guy routine and pushing over the pedestals.

Women have plenty of positive attributes. But they’re not angels, and when it comes to what sexually attracts them, even the nice, well-bred ones are more insanely twisted, from the male perspective, than the average serial killer.

So apparently the only truly happy couples in the world are those in which both partners think like serial killers.

What a romantic!

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Polliwog
Polliwog
10 years ago

So yeah, I was talking about regular advice for normal people.

Direct quotes of a small sampling of the advice you were linked to or given here:

– The other person is just a human.
– Listen to the other person – pay attention to the actual interaction that is taking place and not the one in your head.
– Get involved in groups and activities that you like. Then you can find people that have common interests.
– Put a basic effort into your appearance. You don’t have to be obsessed with your looks, but just keep up good hygiene.
– Have a good sense of humor, especially a self deprecating one. Many people are more attractive if they can laugh at themselves.

So, apparently “normal people” inside your head are…um…non-humans who have no interests in life, love it when you smell like unwashed gym socks, don’t want you to listen to them, and abhor laughter? Or something?

Pecunium
10 years ago

Hengist: You’re not special, just blockheaded.

So lets see, you ask for advice, you get pointers, then you complain that you got the advice you asked for, but it sucked because you asked for the wrong advice.

So yeah, you look pretty stupid right now.

ozymandias42
10 years ago

There’s no such animal as a normal person. We are all, God help us, a few standard deviations away on at least one trait. If you would like advice to learn how to sleep with the people in your social group, I’d advise you ask a blunt and romantically successful person in your social group.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

“Don’t worry, I don’t think anyone would ever confuse you for the motherly kind.”

If you’re going to try in insult people it’s usually best to pick something that they’ll actually be offended about. Most feminists aren’t super offended when a random guy tells them they’re insufficiently motherly, especially after they’ve just sarcastically told him that they’re not his mommy. Report card says “must try harder”.

Pecunium
10 years ago

How do you know we haven’t met already?

Ah… so you went to the bar, saw who he was and decided the bout of fisticuffs you advertised was coming his way was more than you wanted to risk.

Amused
Amused
10 years ago

I just love the breezy assumption that feminists owe Hengist dating advice. And to provide bitter, lonely men with satisfying relationships/hookups/whatever. Oh, no, some men are still unfucked! Let’s drop everything else, there is a REAL problem here.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
10 years ago

Oh, no, some men are still unfucked! Let’s drop everything else, there is a REAL problem here.

Yeah, they don’t see how making key and lock analogies is hurting their cause either. They’re like “Hey, women, come have sex with me! If you do, though, you’re a slutty slut!” Gee, I wonder why that’s not effective.

Amused
Amused
10 years ago

Also, let’s not forget that a key belongs on a chain.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Gee, Hengist, if you don’t like feminists or wouldn’t date one, why in the blue fuck are you on a feminist blog asking for dating tips? Might be time for you to re-think your life choices at this point.

Raoul
10 years ago

(Hershele Ostropoler, 10/6/11 1:23pm) “BlackBloc:

Ever used Usenet? There’s a reason it’s mostly ghost town now and people use online forums nowadays.

By the time I showed up in ’97 it wasn’t that awful. I’ve seen forums harder to follow than Usenet — all of them, in fact, save Manboobz and TV Tropes (and I no longer visit the TV Tropes forums for other reasons).”

What killed Usenet wasn’t that it was too hard. It was that it was too easy.

The modern world is too full of dysfunction and sad strangeness to allow for any place of interaction that just lets people meet people. It was a great, utopian move, but reality…well, reality.

The future is: show your credentials – money, insider-speak, community membership, money, whatever – and you pass. Screw it up and you’re banned.

Lauralot
Lauralot
10 years ago

So Hengist demands dating advice, ignores the perfectly rational advice provided because of the sources and accuses cynickal of making personal attacks, then makes personal attacks against CassandraSays and decides Pecunium has a hard-on for him (projection much?) for pointing out why he’s wrong.

What does Hengist hope to accomplish by posting on this site, again?

Pecunium
10 years ago

Lauralot: to be fair to him he’s been wrong in a lot of threads. But, he gets the same treatment Marc, Ion, the most recent Eoghan incarnation, Simon, Samuel, Brandon, etc. get.

But he thinks he’s special. It’s not as if he’s an NWO whom I almost never speak to, but rather about, or Meller, whom I always remind of his desires to kill women, and see them suffer; because he can’t get the sort of slavering adoration he thinks he is entitled to, just because his piss-tube projects from his body.

He’s just another run of the mill person being wrong on the internet.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

Ah… so you went to the bar, saw who he was and decided the bout of fisticuffs you advertised was coming his way was more than you wanted to risk.

Which sucks, because I’m a lightweight and a sucker for Belgian porters.

Developers^3
Developers^3
10 years ago

Well, I guess that if someone doesn’t take you by the hand and tell you each specific step in a Choose-Your-Own-Dating-Adventure style, Paint-by-Numbers guide on how to interact with people you’re just not capable of watching, observing and learning.

Say, do you think you could… Oh, say, set up an SSH Tunnel without specific a step-by-step guide? If you argue that task too well defined to be comparable, then do you consider it reasonable to take some guy or gal off the street and have them design a complex software/electronic/mechanical system without any formal education?

I would argue that human courtship is every bit as difficult. And, yet you seem to think that asking how one should even get started is only something that the pathetically inept should have to do?

Really people, dating is an activity. You have to participate in it, not sit in your basement wondering why super models aren’t busting down your door.

You why I can’t? Courtship scares me. I don’t know how to even begin. We have created a world where it is more socially acceptable to say that you are looking casual sex than to say you are looking for a future spouse. We have created a world where chastity is a liability. We have created a world where I am not allowed to honestly and directly state what I want for fear of being considered creepy or needy and I can no longer assume that what I want is the social norm. How on earth am I supposed to succeed against these odds? (And, no, that is not a rhetorical question. Honest answers are appreciated.)

Hengist, there are plenty of feminist who do not make fun of men that are alone and want dating advice. That is a situation plenty of both men and women deal with in life. It’s not something to ridicule at all. One of the many problems of PUA advice is that it is one size fits all. Sure, some women may respond well to negging, kino, and whatever else PUA’s do. Plenty of women don’t like any of that, though.

The thing is, I think your post is the first example I’ve ever seen of a feminists who do not make fun of or vilify men who are alone and inexperienced in the wild. I see plenty of examples of of those who do, and others who mean well but endorse stuff like that.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

Ah… so you went to the bar, saw who he was and decided the bout of fisticuffs you advertised was coming his way was more than you wanted to risk.

Or didn’t want his tears and mucus staining my new shirt, either way. :p

If you’re going to try in insult people it’s usually best to pick something that they’ll actually be offended about. Most feminists aren’t super offended when a random guy tells them they’re insufficiently motherly, especially after they’ve just sarcastically told him that they’re not his mommy. Report card says “must try harder”.

Report card? That’s a good one. You’re actually much better suited for the “stern, humorless Victorian schoolteacher” role than anything approaching motherhood.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

I just love the breezy assumption that feminists owe Hengist dating advice.

And I love watching as you folks wildly flail at strawmen. All I said was that feminists love to mock PUAs yet offer no useful dating advice themselves. Sorry, but “be yourself, listen, and have good hygiene” is not advice. It’s common sense stuff that everyone knows. It’s the equivalent of a football tip saying “well, you gotta run really fast and try to kick the ball in the other team’s net!” The rest of it was specific to “dating while feminist” which as I said, I’d rather live as a hermit for the rest of my life than get involved in. So yeah, insert cutesy report card joke or whatever you consider humor around here.

Amused
Amused
10 years ago

Hengist: Once again, the fact that we tell you not to rape or maliciously mistreat women doesn’t mean we are obligated to give you “good dating advice” as an alternative to rape and malicious mistreatment. I don’t give a shit whether you get laid or not. You have a moral obligation to respect people’s boundaries and not to be a douche WITHOUT a corresponding entitlement.

Also, you’ve got plenty of good advice. I would add that you should maybe update your joke repertoire; misogynistic pretense at cleverness that’s a hundred years old may be funny to you losers whenever you get together to bitch about women, but it doesn’t get women’s panties wet. And drop that whole complaint about how “nice” guys supposedly don’t get dates because they are “nice”. You are not in any way, shape or form nice, unless “nice” is a code word for “passive-aggressive”. You are not nice: on the contrary: you are a cowardly, mean little shit who lacks both intelligence and wit, which perfectly describes your PUA buddies, as well. That’s not an insult — that’s a detached observation from someone who doesn’t have a dog in this fight. A good dating advice would be for you to address those qualities I’ve just listed. But if you’d rather be a hermit for the rest of your life than be a good person, a fun date and a loving partner, that’s okay too. The world won’t stop spinning just because you took your stupid bullshit out of circulation.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Developer: You why I can’t? Courtship scares me. I don’t know how to even begin. We have created a world where it is more socially acceptable to say that you are looking casual sex than to say you are looking for a future spouse. We have created a world where chastity is a liability. We have created a world where I am not allowed to honestly and directly state what I want for fear of being considered creepy or needy and I can no longer assume that what I want is the social norm. How on earth am I supposed to succeed against these odds? (And, no, that is not a rhetorical question. Honest answers are appreciated.)

Nonsense.

It’s just that someone who is looking at every relationship as if it should end up spousal, instead of being a relationship that could, is at a disadvantage.

Why? Because the justification for marriage has changed. It’s not longer the prerequisite for non-risky sex (for men; for women it was the prerequisite for non-ostracizing sex).

But I’d have to say that every relationship I’ve entered I entered with the thought that it might be one that led to permanence.

As to your non-rhetorical question… insufficient data. All I can infer is you want to get married; and you aren’t interested in whatever it is you are calling casual sex.

I also have to wonder at the reason you characterise that post as making fun of/vilifying inexperienced men/men who are alone?

I’m also amused, in that it’s, in many ways, a reversal of the, “if you want to avoid rape, don’t [laundry list of things women need to do/avoid doing]”.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

Say, do you think you could… Oh, say, set up an SSH Tunnel without specific a step-by-step guide?

Oh this jackass is back. You’re kind of an idiot, as always, Developers. A lot of people manage to date without a guide, but programming and networking are technical fields.

But this too is entirely besides the point. If you actually look at the links Cynickal gave, they’re useful ideas . You can not get a step by step guide to dating, because women and men aren’t a giant monolith. This is not Final Fantasy XIII, where every copy ships out the same so a step-by-step strategy guide is useful. Only the general is generally useful, though there may be additional tips for a particular subculture.

One thing I will say, Devs, is that if you’re as socially inept RL as you are on the net, you’re fucked. But it’s not because you’re male.

You’re completely fucked because you are a nerd who does not know the ordinary social rules of dating, and you refuse anything but a Leave it to Beaver marriage (I say this because traditionally, women have always worked and worked hard, generally outside the home unless the ‘home’ counts as the entire fucking farm. What you call a ‘traditional’ marriage was only ever an option for the rich, and at times, the middle class). That’s a problem, because most of the women who want a Leave it to Beaver marriage are the kinds who really care about the mostly unwritten Dating Rules. I’d tell you what they are, but I don’t know them. See, you don’t need those rules if you don’t date entirely ‘normal’ people. But the people who don’t care about these rules are even less likely to want a Leave it to Beaver Marriage. You have incompatible goals and methods. Not only do you not specifically congregate to groups that do value what you value, but you apparently refuse to learn the social rules that go along with what you do value. I don’t know those rules, even if you were dating the general population.

You need to go to one of those um… Quiverful-like groups, and then ask what the ‘dating’ rules are in that specific subculture. They call dating courtship, IIRC, so that’s a good chance that they actually match your desires. As is, you’re completely fucked. Find a subculture that specifically values what you value, learn its rules, and then start dating within that subculture. This is still no guarantee that things will turn out a happy ending for you, but it’s a much better method than the puling you’re doing now. Hell, if you want to date in the general population that’s okay too, but learn the fucking social rules (Again, I would honestly tell you if I knew them as part of my efforts at nerd solidarity, but I don’t)

I don’t know how to even begin. We have created a world where it is more socially acceptable to say that you are looking casual sex than to say you are looking for a future spouse.

This isn’t a better or worse world, it’s a world better suited to everyone who inhabits it (And always was, in case you have any funny ideas about how everyone actually wanted those bullshit rituals you seem to idealize.)

We have created a world where I am not allowed to honestly and directly state what I want for fear of being considered creepy or needy

Pull the other one, it plays Yoko Kanno.

You’re an idiot. Do you not know there are relatively large communities that offer *exactly* what you want? The world of Christian DAting is full of women who say they want to stay in the home and a traditional marriage, and I’m reasonably certain a good number of them are being completely honest in saying so. Find a Promise Keeper, I guess.

and I can no longer assume that what I want is the social norm

Let me see whether I care.

What I want isn’t the social norm either. But unlike you, I hung around where it *IS* the norm and have found a number of potential partners, and my actual girlfriend who I want to marry, all of whom value this thing. But then, I love *smart people*, and myself am fairly smart. I can actually think about how to get what I want. You, apparently, have never thought to go where the people value what you value.

The thing is, I think your post is the first example I’ve ever seen of a feminists who do not make fun of or vilify men who are alone and inexperienced in the wild.

That would be because you are an asshole. I’ve seen it numerous times, complete with advice on what to do, as well as what not to do.

I see plenty of examples of of those who do, and others who mean well but endorse stuff like that.

This is villification to you? This sounds like a game women are rigged to lose.

Polliwog
Polliwog
10 years ago

You why I can’t? Courtship scares me. I don’t know how to even begin. We have created a world where it is more socially acceptable to say that you are looking casual sex than to say you are looking for a future spouse. We have created a world where chastity is a liability. We have created a world where I am not allowed to honestly and directly state what I want for fear of being considered creepy or needy and I can no longer assume that what I want is the social norm. How on earth am I supposed to succeed against these odds? (And, no, that is not a rhetorical question. Honest answers are appreciated.)

I’m happy to offer honest answers (my friends jokingly call me their personal advice columnist, because apparently I’m good at the relationship advice thing), but you’d need to be more specific about what it is that you want that you’re worried will make you seem creepy or needy before I can be extremely helpful.

As far as what you did mention, I’m not sure I agree. Yeah, it’s probably more socially acceptable to walk up to a stranger and say, “Hey, are you up for casual sex?” than “Hey, are you up for marrying me and making my babies?” – but the former is still almost certainly generally considered less acceptable than walking up to someone you know and like and saying, “Hey, would you like to go on a date?” while thinking, “If we go on a date and it goes well, maybe it could lead to a long-term serious relationship!” I’ve never been interested in casual sex, personally, and everyone I’ve dated I’ve dated with the expectation that it might lead to something permanent. No one has ever accused me of being creepy for it.

As for chastity being a liability, well, it kind of depends for what – or, more pertinently, for whom. If, for example, you do not want to have sex until marriage, that probably won’t serve you well for picking up strangers in bars – but that runs both ways! Wanting sex on the first date is a “liability” if you’re asking someone out who wants to wait longer. The best dating advice in the world is also the simplest: look for people who are compatible with you, not people you just WANT to be compatible with you.

Last but not least, I really need to address this little tidbit:

I can no longer assume that what I want is the social norm.

I am a little staggered that you seem to believe “not being able to assume other people want what I want” is somehow a terrible obstacle. If there’s one thing that’s absolutely vital to any healthy relationship, it’s communication. Even in a society where 99% of people agreed with you on absolutely everything, it would still be important that you communicate your desires to your partner openly and honestly and listen to what they communicate in return. “Assuming” is never and has never been a good relationship strategy, so not having it as an option is a GOOD thing!

Now, of course, when you don’t actually have the majority of the world in perfect agreement with you on everything, it means that it’s likely that sometimes, when you communicate what you want, your partner will say, “Oh, that’s not what I want at all. I don’t think this is going to work.” While that’s understandably disappointing, again, it’s not actually a bad thing. Would you really want to spend your life with someone who was unhappy with what life with you entailed?

For what it’s worth, I’m perfectly aware that what I want in a relationship is not what the majority of people want. People who are compatible with me are unquestionably a tiny, tiny minority of people. But that’s okay, because I only need one. If you approach dating that way – as a way of finding one (or more, if you happen to be poly) of the few people in the world who really are good matches for you – then being rejected or being dumped aren’t “failures” or anything like that. They’re just part of the process of finding someone who will both make you happy and be made happy by you, because both of those aspects ought to be equally important.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“We have created a world where I am not allowed to honestly and directly state what I want for fear of being considered creepy or needy and I can no longer assume that what I want is the social norm. How on earth am I supposed to succeed against these odds? (And, no, that is not a rhetorical question. Honest answers are appreciated.)”

What *do* you want, Hengist?

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

Hengist: Once again, the fact that we tell you not to rape or maliciously mistreat women doesn’t mean we are obligated to give you “good dating advice”

Fine, then don’t get your panties in a wad when I simply point this out.

I don’t give a shit whether you get laid or not. You have a moral obligation to respect people’s boundaries and not to be a douche WITHOUT a corresponding entitlement.

See, this is what I mean. Any dating “tips” coming from feminists are nothing but snark, insults and man-blaming. You and your friends here are living proof of that. If anything, I would advise guys NOT to listen to feminists because it might actually sour their attitudes towards dating and women in general. Nothing like spending a few days in the company of a bunch of sarcastic, hostile, argumentative, mean-spirited shrews to make one re-evaluate one’s goals. :p

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

We’re only hostile and sarcastic to prats and entitled douchnozzles. It’s not our fault most MRAs fit in one or both categories.

Polliwog
Polliwog
10 years ago

Any dating “tips” coming from feminists are nothing but snark, insults and man-blaming.

Just for fun, please show me how literally anything in the long post I made just a couple posts up is either snark, insults, or man-blaming. There are certainly people here snarking (not so much “man-blaming”), but they’re mostly doing it in response to being insulted themselves. It’s amazing how people don’t typically respond with kindness when you call them “mean-spirited shrews.” Go figure!

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

We’re only hostile and sarcastic to prats and entitled douchnozzles. It’s not our fault most MRAs fit in one or both categories.

Yeah, I’m sure in day-to-day life you’re real sweethearts. Sorry if I’m not buying that. You just love arguments and conflict way too much. I had a teacher like you once (and I’m using the plural “you” as in the Boob Gang). She probably also thought she was being “strong” and “forthright” and “only mean to those who deserved it” but the truth is, she was a rude insufferable bitch and nobody liked her.

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