Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
Please don’t embarrass yourself by misusing overplayed literary references. It is painful to read.
“Sometimes you agree with me and sometimes you don’t. Which proves that you’re horrible. I win!”
Falls off chair, passes out under table. Drools all over floor.
Cassandra, maybe you need a Red Bull.
Said the one of the most arrogant, disingenuous anti-feminists I’ve ever had the displeasure of arguing with.
Oh, THIS.
I really have no idea what gnl is trying to prove anymore. I’m pretty sure everyone knew that a broken clock is right twice a day.
Oh yay. GNL is back. I wonder if he’ll ever get around to presenting the wrong points that we all believe.
Nono, Kirby, he just pulls out shit he doesn’t believe and then our responses are self-evident tracts of wrongness, displayed for the world.
…I mean, he says so.
@GNL:
Straw-feminists are a misrepresentation of the feminist position. Stop abusing real words, they have meanings.
If your goal is to convince us that straw-feminist beliefs are wrong… we didn’t need convincing, dude. It’s almost like you believe you are a feminist, and you’re actually agreeing with us in some twisted way.
Aw man, is gnl back again? Someone give the guy the bum’s rush already. I find PEMRA more entertaining, even if he IS dumb as a sack of bricks.
@howardbann1ster:
That still makes zero sense. Alright, you pretend to have a shit position that you think is wrong. People rush to prove it wrong. This… proves you right? About something?
GNLs probably just making crap up as he goes along. I swear he’s just embarassed that he tried to argue something that got so thouroughly trounced, so he’s pretending as if that was part of the plan all along.
I think that’s the most likely scenario, Kirby. Wounded pride is the only way anything he’s saying makes any fucking sense.
Nononono, he said it makes sense.
He’s asserted it, it must be true.
I mean, since that’s all the evidence he’s ever provided, obviously it’s the only evidence that counts.
Quid Proctor Gamble, or something.
“Straw-feminists are a misrepresentation of the feminist position. Stop abusing real words, they have meanings.”
Umm yes. You present an ass backwards sexist against men argument. I hold that same argument up as a straw feminist. You can side with the straw feminist (then it becomes a real feminist position) or attack your own position. I do know words and there meanings.
O, and simply being out numbered 10:1 isn’t ‘trounced’. No this wasn’t my plan all along, for some reason at the start I was thinking that you would have enough brain power to see past your own bigotry and see a larger truth. I was wrong. I changed tactics. I’ve stopped trying to show greater truth, and started showing your own bigotry.
@GNL:
Right, you’ve offered an example thing that we all believe, and that is wrong! Wonderful! An “ass backwards sexist against men argument.”
Now we have something to work with.
… or we would have, if anybody had presented any argument about being sexist against men…
Mind telling us exactly what you had in mind there, GNL?
You’re right! Being out-numbered does not indicate you’re wrong, well done! Good thing I don’t believe that either, that would be silly.
lol, i’ve been a vegetarian since i was very young (was obsessed with animals, can i get an amen) and the thought that i was ever discriminated against…is so incredibly silly. if anything, it’s an incredible privilege that i was able to access healthy vegetarian food at a young age.
sending imaginary coffee (really, really good coffee — make it a red eye!) to y’all.
Argenti – is it supposed to be the cheshire cat (your gravatar)? it also reminds me of the cat bus!
and this, because i also ask you to take this flower (it never gets old to me)
I’m just going to let that little piece of irony sit here for a while.
Also we made him troll, you guys. It’s all our fault.
Ironically, that itself is a straw man.
Ah, screw it, I’ma just ship PEMRA and GNL together now. Who’s with me? Kirbywarp, ready for purpling your prose?
PEMRA looked across the bar. What a gorgeous person GNL was! Sure, he wasn’t a hot bodied 21-year old anymore, but something about those passionate, furious eyes, that way with words, his dexterity with goalposts…
Could this be… LUST?
Surely people’s experiences of how odd versus normal vegetarianism was to the community they live in varies vastly depending on where that community was, and possibly when too? I mean, where I live now the idea that vegetarianism is in any way unusual is ludicrous. Offices automatically provide vegetarian options when catering. Coffee shops offer vegan cookies. It’s mainstream here. When I was a kid in Libya or Saudi, though? The response to “I want something vegetarian” would have been “too bad, you’ll eat what you’re given”. In Thailand people get it, because of Buddhism, but at the same time a lot of dishes that call themselves vegetarian aren’t really because Thai food without fish sauce is like French food without butter. And in the UK it was hard to get vegetarian food when I was a kid, but isn’t nearly as hard any more. So people’s experiences are going to depend on where and when they grew up.
Also here you tend to find that a lot of people who’re concerned with animal welfare push for organic and free range meat rather than vegetarianism raised in a less cruel way, an option the implicit dismissal of which was irritating me earlier in the conversation.
@LBT:
Ready as I’ll ever be.
PEMRA begain his approach, sauntering slyly over to where GNL was sitting. He figured a direct approach would probably be best.
“Hey there, sexy”
GNL looked up from his drink and cocked his head.
“You’re ugly.”
PEMRA was taken aback. That was, more blunt than he expected. Contrary to his words, however, GNL was staring at him with a certain fire that PEMRA couldn’t quite place. Perhaps…
“No, I’m not.”
“Of course you’re not,” GNL snapped, “I just pretended to think that way to highlight your own cognitive dissonence.”
Suddenly it clicked in PEMRA’s head, and he smiled warmly back.
“Thank you for the compliment.”
GNL looked around briefly, before fixating his eyes back on PEMRA.
“Sit,” he commanded, and PEMRA sat down.
Meat raised in a less cruel way, not what I wrote. Wow, need coffee.
RE: CassandraSays
That doesn’t necessarily work. I was once chastised for working on an organic free-range dairy farm, because I was oppressing animals.
…of course, that person also believed they were the dragon reincarnation of Mother Earth and were going to destroy the bloodmouths, so I don’t think they were representative of anything but them.
RE: kirbywarp
Oh, it’s ON now!
PEMRA now knew he was in the presence of a great mind. Perhaps this was the moderate MRA he’d spent so much time looking for?
He gave NGL a wink. “Want to demolish the matriarchy with me?”
NGL gave him a long look. “You don’t seem smart enough to come up with a plan.”
“I do! We go our own way… with EACH OTHER.”
Well, yes, there are a lot of people who won’t accept anything less than a complete end to not only the meat but the dairy industry too. My point is that that position is not the only valid one for people who care about animal welfare.
“…of course, that person also believed they were the dragon reincarnation of Mother Earth and were going to destroy the bloodmouths, so I don’t think they were representative of anything but them.”
*snicker-snort giggle*
“…of course, that person also believed they were the dragon reincarnation of Mother Earth and were going to destroy the bloodmouths, so I don’t think they were representative of anything but them.”
Aw, man, now I want to write a novel about somebody who wakes up one day and realizes they’re totally the dragon reincarnation of Mother Earth, surrounded by bloodmouths they’re supposed to destroy… but since they’re a human being with ethics they realize that murdering those who eat meat is totally evil, no matter what Mother Earth says, and have to suppress it all the time.
…
Maybe as a side character in a bigger thing? Yes, this could work. Especially if they get dragon skills that only work on meat eaters. Yes.
At least pemra has the courtesy to be concise (most of the time). GNL is long winded and thick headed
*cough*nosuchthingassexismagainstmen*cough*
I think I’ve been mocking MRAs for too long. I read this stuff and instead of being shocked or outraged I’m just going, aw, misandry is really real and there totally are moderate MRAs even though nobody can seem to find any AGAIN? How dull.
“If there’s an office where food policing doesn’t happen then can someone tell me the name of the company? It might be a good place to work.
(Hint – it doesn’t exist.)”
I’ve been working nearly thirty years in umpteen jobs, big places and small, and have never experienced or witnessed food policing, unless you count the one person in my first job who said “You eat so much chocolate, you must be diabetic!” (Yes, she was a twit.)
@LBT:
So sappy! Two can play this game!
GNL remained impassive, though PEMRA thought he could detect a subtle flush in GNL’s cheek.
“You can’t go your own way with someone else,” GNL said, “that’s a strawman.”
PEMRA paused, confused… Strawman?
“No no,” he countered, “You misunderstand me. What I mean is, let’s each go the same way, a unique way! One that will bring the matriarchy to its knees!”
GNL grew a little more flushed, and for the first time smiled back.
“I understand you fine. I’m just presenting strawmen so you can make my arguments for me.”
PEMRA was amazed at his companion’s wisdom. GNL looked down and stirred his drink, then put his hand over PEMRA’s and flashed that firey gaze once more.
“You aren’t stupid,” he said, and paused ever so briefly to squeeze PEMRA’s hand.
“So tell me, which way shall we go?”
RE: Shiraz
I wish I was joking but unfortunately, I’m not. That person was… not well. I chose to back away slowly and avoid.
RE: howardbann1ster
I’d enjoy that, actually. The multis I know have a LOT of variance in system members, and I know a couple of gods or god-equivalents… but most people realize that just because someone says they’re a god doesn’t mean they’re any less stupid than anyone else. The systems I prefer hanging out with WOULD have the response of, “We get it, shut up and sign the headmate agreement contract or you ain’t getting shit.”
Out of curiosity, did she tell people that she considered them “bloodmouths” who should be exterminated? Can’t imagine most people taking that very well.
“*cough*nosuchthingassexismagainstmen*cough*”
See this is the kind of ass backwards man hate bull shit that gets a hyperbolic response in the form of a straw feminist.
So sexism is 100% only women being oppressed by a male only system that benefits all men to insure that no male ever suffers.
When phrased as a straw feminist, it is very very wrong. If I try to give examples of sexism against men, you will attack. You will try to prove me wrong or spin it to look like sexism against women. By presenting a straw feminist, you can agree with me that sexism against me does happen, or you can agree with the straw feminist. You can attack the straw feminist or you can slather yourself in bigotry.
And Cassandra, there are moderate MRA’s. Misandry is real. You label anyone that thinks misandry is real as a misogynist extremist. There is no way to show you that misandry is real if you keep thinking that anyone that sees misandry is a misogynistic extremist. Here, lets present the core argument that I’ve tried to make over and over and over and over and over. There are four major factors that affect gender equality. 1)Sexism against men 2)Sexism against women 3)Sexism that benefits women 4)Sexism that benefits men (note this is not an ordered list, if you think the order matters feel free to reorder the not ordered list) I make no assumptions on where the balance of power lies. It may very well be the case that men have more power than women. This can not be determined until we are having a conversation that includes all four factors, not just benefits to men and costs to women.
As far as I can tell it’s only straw feminist positions like “Sexism is 100% only women being oppressed by a male only system that benefits all men” that have a real dispute with the four major factors in gender equality.
We’re still waiting for you to show us who you think the moderate MRAs are. Any time now…
I’m bored and tired, so I’m going to exercise my Troll-English translation skills. Let’s see how well I do.
”Feminists don’t care about men.” Translation: ”God, why are people so selfish? Everyone should focus on me!”
”Feminism will lead to bigotry/matriarchy/end of romance/no sexytime for anyone, anywhere, ever again/the extermination of our species/the collapse of western civilization/the end of the world as we know it/a sad boner for me/other/all of the above.” Translation: ”I have no idea what I’m arguing here, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to admit it.”
”Men don’t have privilege.” Alt. spelling: ”Patriarchy is not real.” Translation: ”I don’t want others to also get this thing that comes to me without effort because then I wouldn’t be speshul! Waaaah!”
”Blah blah blah cognitive dissonance blah blah blah groupthink blah blah blah feminist dogma” Translation: ”Somebody pay attention to meeee!”
”I stand for equality, not feminism.” Translation: ”Actually, I don’t really give two shits about anyone that isn’t me.”
”Men and women are biologically different, therefore true equality is impossible.” Translation: ”Bitches ain’t shit.”
”Men are oppressed.” Translation: ”Man, I’m so high right now.”
Thank you! My troll to English translation gnome resigned, citing extreme boredom, so I decided to watch more Maine Coon videos instead of reading the remainder of his comment.
RE: CassandraSays
I honestly do not know; I pretty much pulled a Batman and vanished the moment she started talking about free-range organic cattle farms oppressing cows.
RE: kirbywarp
“We shall go the gender egalitarian way! The balanced way! The utopian way of romantic brotherhood!”
“I don’t know… will this distract me from the important men’s issues of birth control imbalance?”
PEMRA was confused for a moment, then hesitantly guessed, “…we can use condoms?”
“Damn right you are. We have to take back the balance!” And NGL hauled him out the door.
What, the whole dragon meets dalek bit wasn’t enough?
Like, the way I see this playing out is
“And then I will exterminate the…”
“Oops, is that the time? Gotta go. Bye!”
@GNL:
Yyyyeaah… no. This is so far away from a legitimate feminist position that you can’t even call it straw-feminist, or wrong.
Sexism against women, or misogyny, is a systematic effect that generally disadvantages women as compared to men. It can be and is propagated by any members of society, not just men.
Sexism against men, or misandry, would be a systematic effect that generally disadvantaes men as compared to women, if it existed. But it doesn’t. Men are privileged over women. It is not a symmetric relationship.
The reason we keep taking what you call misandry and calling it a result of misogyny or patriarchy is because you keep labeling any statistic that is negative towards men as misandry. Reality is much more complicated. Men suffer under patriarchy for being required to adhere to gender roles, and women do as well. But they do not suffer in the same way; women under patriarchy are second class citizens as compared to men.
This doesn’t mean that no men suffer. That, as you are well aware, is silly. What it does mean is that society as a whole is structure such that you are advantaged if you are a man and disadvantaged if you are anything else.
See where this obsession with presenting straw-arguments gets you? You are gaining no better understanding of the issue by pretending to be extreme, you are just further clouding the issue for yourself.
@LBT:
My sides… I cannot continue. Well played. ^_^
WHAT DID I JUST READ? THIS THREAD IS JUST BIZZARRE.
@GNL
Institutionalized misandry exists only under matriarchy, yet we live under the patriarchy, and only misogyny is institutionalized by the patriarchy. So what Fade said isn’t bigoted at all.
Of course it’s possible to be bigoted against men, but anti-man bigotry can’t be compared to anti-woman bigotry in this society simply because they work in completely different ways under the patriarchy.
“We’re still waiting for you to show us who you think the moderate MRAs are. Any time now…”
Well show me a feminist that is moderate, you know one that doesn’t use parrots translations. Find me one, and we can play telephone. You will just become shrill over some non-slight if this information comes from the mouth of an MRA.
Remember, their moderate mra’s are people like Warren “men not getting laid is as traumatizing as rape” Farrel.
Feminists don’t have parrots, honey. You’re thinking of pirates.
I think GNL wants to play party games with a pirate. I’m pretty sure this is an accurate interpretation of his words.
(Well OK, so my friend’s boyfriend has a parrot, but technically it’s his, not hers, so it’s more of a step-parrot.)
(This thread is just going to keep on being weird, isn’t it?)
RE: CassandraSays
Hey, I found out about the Earthdragon stuff later; she mentioned the cow oppression in the second paragraph I spoke to her. And yeah, it went pretty much EXACTLY how you depict it.
“Free-range or organic doesn’t matter; to even own an animal is an act of oppression, and–”
“Wow, hey, I gotta do a thing and wash my hair, bye!” *smokebomb!*
RE: Kirbywarp
I wanted to work in a ‘nubile young body’ but I thought that might be too much.
RE: genderneutrallanguage
*innocent face* Valerie Solanas and Andrea Dworkin? How about a heaping helping of Janice Raymond? Might I offer some bell hooks?*
*Yes, I know bell hooks isn’t an asshole, but she talks about race, so she counts under NGL’s ideas, right?