mass killing mass shooting open thread

Santa Fe school shooting open thread

School shooting suspect Dimitrios Pagourtzis posted a picture of this t-shirt on Facebook

By David Futrelle

Another horrific school shooting, this time in Santa Fe. Ten students are dead, ten more are injured. The alleged shooter, 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis, is in custody; another student has also been detained. So far there is no clear motive beyond a desire to kill; he recently posted a photo of a duster emblazoned with an assortment of symbols, including an Iron Cross and a hammer and sickle.

Here’s a thread to discuss this tragedy and its broader context. No trolls.

46 replies on “Santa Fe school shooting open thread”

I wish I were a US citizen just so I could help vote those NRA enslaved a**holes out of office.

An iron cross and a hammer and sickle? Not a very politically sophisticated kid, I guess.

Annnnnnnnnd cue Ted Cruz and Greg Abbott pretending to give a shit about Texans and not admitting anything about all the NRA money they’ve gotten.

Don’t forget about Cornyn, Parasol. He does at least send me a response via snail mail every time I call his office, but he still basically votes right along with Cruz.

@Victorious Parasol
Fortunately there are plenty of replies of those people’s tweets that are basically “fuck off nra shill.” It’d be more fortunate if Ted Cruz was given the boot.

And then there’s the random Trumpanzee showing up with a pistol and a flag.

Why? Because he wanted to help stop the shooter??? OF FUCKING COURSE NOT! No, just to show that he could. I mean, why else do you show up with a fucking flag if not to showcase that you are an ammosexual fully willing to rub in your support for the “Second Amendment” in the face of grieving parents and children.

Fuck it, can’t say much more about him without violating comments policy.

Here, have some Alondra de la Parra owning it to de-stress:

Texas is my home. I have nothing to add to this conversation but sorrow. I’m so sad.

Oh, and now Dan Patrick has decided to open his mouth and declare that the building code needs to be adjusted. Because that’s better than any sort of gun control, in DanPatrickLand.

Makes me glad Mr. Parasol and I both voted against the current gov and lt gov.


Yeah, same here. Sometimes I really hate it here, but it is also my home.

Self and usual crew here are having a few drinks, this is all so disturbing, and you wish you could ‘fix it’. The best idea we can come up with is: The entire school system needs to be looked at and revised.

They do this in work places, and manufacturing processes. Traffic and peoples’ shopping habits are also studied more.

And yet the US school system remains largely the same as it was 50, if not 100 years ago.

Why isn’t the same sort of analysis applied to educational systems? Obviously there are many things wrong here.

Logistics and urban planning factor into these things too. The One Who Studied Architecture told us: A lot of traffic congestion in “suburban areas”, developed through the 1970s, have traffic bottlenecks because it was assumed only ONE person (The Breadwinner) would be driving from the house.

We think many things need to be looked at with a new eye, so to say. And definitely including these suburban high schools. There are systemic problems with it all.

To add to my previous thoughts, which I thought might’ve been a bit vague,

I thought of shopping too, like going to the grocery store. They try to make it a pleasant experience. People study these things and adjust things.

The don’t make a store like a giant clusterfuck of 3 to 5 thousand people trying to get to a boring class that they don’t care about. (IKEA excepted).

Your “neighborhood grocery store”, as example. Even here in a dense urban area. There’s enough parking, or buses stop there, and they have cab stands, and they manage to put in a little “garden center” in a corner of the parking lot at this time of year.

And people (the workers there) are friendly and helpful. And I’m thinking of a big chain of stores here, which have local shops throughout the area.

What if US HS’s were run this way? And in fact that reminded me of something else, because self and many friends and people I’ve met through the years, who got part time jobs in HS, said that working at shops like this was likely the greatest thing to happen to them, got you out and going, and pursuing more, go to city college and like that, but also, doesn’t it come down to that you were treated like a person?

AND you got a pay check?

And it’s a sad tale when the local Jewel or Kmart treats you better than your school.

All of us here grew up in some Upscale Suburban Area, and the schools were run like prisons. And if any asshole bully was giving you shit it was too goddamned bad, they didn’t care one whit, they had paperwork to do and way too many kids to deal with.

I think the whole US educational system, especially high schools, need to be seriously looked at and completely revised.

Apparently NRA supporters would rather ban doors than guns.

Yeah, saw that. These idiots can’t even think far enough ahead to see how detrimental it would be to create a bottleneck in future emergencies, whether because of a fire or in another shooter scenario.

Meanwhile, conservatives are saying we should be more violent to kids (spanking) but, by the hint of anger in their voices and the narrative of their messages, it seems they want that violence directed towards kids protesting gun violence instead of the actual fucking shooters. Because “MUH 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!”

Looks like the shooter is ethnically Greek. I always smile bitterly when people from groups the Nazis persecuted come out as neo-Nazi/Nazi-adjacent.

Though I think it’s a little misguided to call this kid a neo-Nazi for having an Iron Cross pin, because his pin collection also included a hammer-and-sickle (we all know how Nazis feel about communists), a Rising Sun, a Baphomet, and a Cthulhu – in other words, a bunch of stuff an edgy 17-year-old would think is cool. It just sucks this edgy 17-year-old had access to guns.

The NRA and their enablers are death-loving* Dementors.

It’s no coincidence that JK Rowling worked at Amnesty International before writing the Harry Potter series. In her capacity as a researcher, she read about torture and saw photos of the evidence of torture. These stories haunted her dreams (that is, her nightmares) and very much informed her worldview.

She took her experience at AI and turned it into art.

Warning: Her discussion of her time at AI, although brief, is tough to read.

*No offense to Death: When you arrive at the right time & in the right way, you rock!

…and here we go again. I’m finding myself becoming more and more desensitized to mass shootings. I know it’s wrong, but that’s the way it is for me these days.

I feel so sorry for the kids who grow up in here in the US, performing spree-shooter drills, hiding under their desks, etc.

When I was in high school, circa 1984, a local news item came out about a student who brought a gun to school. This was in the high school in the town to the east of my town. I don’t really remember any details other than thinking to myself, “What would anyone do that for?”

When my son is at school, I don’t worry about his safety. The worst that could happen (barring a disaster) is getting in the middle of a punch-up at lunch time. Because he’s my boy, he’s always in my mind, somewhere, but I’m not afraid that I might not see him at the end of the day. I can’t even imagine what that fear must feel like. I just went and hugged him, and he said “Oh – the school shooting?”
I hope you folks kick NRA butt at the polls.

@Diego Duarte,

Thanks for posting that clip. She is mesmerising, and watching the whole thing was the equivalent of taking a long, deep, cleansing breath.

The President left the office a while ago. We’re stuck with a SROTUS now. 🙁

SCROTUS? (So-called ruler of the United States)

Yeah, looks like I lost that battle with auto-correct (fixed it a few times, missed that letter though).

Though I think it’s a little misguided to call this kid a neo-Nazi for having an Iron Cross pin, because his pin collection also included a hammer-and-sickle (we all know how Nazis feel about communists), a Rising Sun, a Baphomet, and a Cthulhu – in other words, a bunch of stuff an edgy 17-year-old would think is cool. It just sucks this edgy 17-year-old had access to guns.

What is fueling this current wave of young mass murderers? The 70s was the decade of the serial killer and this decade is the decade of the mass murderer. It’s so weird.

So what do you guys think will happen in the next presidential election? I don’t think Trump will win again, but is Sanders going to run again? He’s the only one I see popular enough (currently) to completely oust a Rebuplican candidate. Who will the Democrats offer up and they better start doing that soon to gain momentum long before the last summer left. Maybe this time a third party will emerge victorious.

I hope its a non-Christian woman of color. Nothing against Christianity but there are other religions that Americans are into. And then of course there are atheists and agnostics too.

It looks like he was gunning for the ex-girlfriend, she was in the art class he stormed.

Off-topic, but I used to have a cockatiel named Kupo. D;

Back on topic:
I knew when Sandy Hook happened that this was going to become a new normal. When we saw children killed and America just collectively shrugged, went “oh well, these things happen, have some thoughts and prayers,” it was obvious that it was going to get worse. And that’s what’s happening. These kids are becoming heroes to other kids who also are angry, don’t know how to redirect that emotion, and blame everyone else but themselves. And this is exactly the same thing with the incel shooters.
And let’s face it, this is still not even the worst. We have people like Jordan Peterson feeding that belief of white men being victims and being entitled to rectify it. We have a society that thinks more guns will help. We have people trying to blame it all on mental illness so they’re ignoring the angry people with entitlement issues in favor of looking at those of us with depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, etc. as the cause of fear. We have this “us vs. them” mentality from the white house and the voters that are pretty much white Christians vs. every other minority. =/

I don’t think Trump will win again, but is Sanders going to run again? He’s the only one I see popular enough (currently) to completely oust a Rebuplican candidate. … Maybe this time a third party will emerge victorious.

Oh just fuck off forever. This bullshit is one of the reasons why we’re in this mess and you know it, you blithering imbecile of a troll.

I don’t have access to non-work internet at work, and I just found out about this.

Of course, the first mention of it (radio, at the beginning of a 30 minute drive) didn’t say the town name, and I have a former roommate who’s a high school teacher in Texas and my sister’s boyfriend is a teacher in Texas and I spent 30 minutes being worried that one of them might be dead.

They’re safe, in completely different towns, but I wouldn’t wish that fear on anyone.

I can’t imagine how the actual kiddos and teachers at that school felt, or their parents who were waiting to find out if their child was okay.

If anyone here knows anyone in that community or IS a member of that community, you have ALL my empathy.

Attending school is supposed to be the least dangerous thing kids do, dammit.

David, could you remove the shooter’s name from the post?

I think it’s the Sandy Hook parents who have requested that media not publicize shooters’ names; they claim that there’s a real copycat effect and that making shooters famous is harmful for that reason.


Please don’t let Idli derail this thread.

It would certainly be a nice change, even more so given the actual thread subject.
(I’m not directing any criticism towards people who’ve been engaging with them, I hasten to add).

*No offense to Death: When you arrive at the right time & in the right way, you rock!


When a culture stands by and allows its children to be cannibalized…sacrificed on the altars of money, rights or whatever… it signals, to me, that the culture is rapidly derailing. What really horrifies me is that we have huge numbers of people on the one hand who genuinely seek realistic, healing solutions, and a corporate government on the other hand whose members see this violence as a justification to INCREASE militaristic, police state reactions. In some cases, they actually point the accusing finger at the victims and their friends and families.

I, like many of us, have no immediate answers. I do sense, however, that we are swiftly reaching a turning point and that a large part of the answers has to do with us waking up…refusing to obey…learning to trust that our deepest instincts may very well be what leads us out of this darkness.

A man named Eric Frank Russell wrote, many years ago, a story called “And Then There Were None.” It can be found, free, on the Internet. All I will say about it is that the following phrase from it forms a major cornerstone of my philosophy: FREEDOM=I WON’T

I’m so sorry to read about this.

I’m not American, so all I can do is watch this madness. I have so much sympathy for all of you. I just do not understand all this business about guns – the only time I’ve ever seen a gun in person was the time I went on holiday to America and we stepped off the plane into the visa bit and there was a customs woman with some kind of huge rifle shouting “keep behind the yellow line”. It was terrifying. Like if you put a foot wrong, you’d be dead. Which I suppose is true.

I remember I was flicking through Pinterest once and I came across this girl’s profile. She had a board she called “Girlie Stuff” and in among all the bags and lipsticks there was a picture of a bright pink handgun. I just stared at it. I thought “That’s fucked up”.

I don’t honestly know what to say about this any more.

@IBH Ardepithecus:


That reminds me of Ullmann and Kien’s The Emperor of Atlantis, an opera that was literally written in a concentration camp — it’s about a tyrant whose excesses finally drive Death to go on strike.

I’ve been avoiding the news for a few weeks (brain weasels!), so this is an unpleasant shock to come back to. Kinda trying not to cry. I don’t know what’s worse, those poor children dying or the utter lack of shock that it’s happened again, and nobody with power to change things is going to do a damn thing about it.

Completely off-topic:
Hi everyone, long time no comment. Hope you’re feeling better soon, David.
Also, in personal news, I got my diagnosis last Thursday (10th May) – it’s official now, I are autist. Bit of a relief, to say the least. I’m being referred to the local adult autism service for support worker services. So I might get some help eventually.
I have started my MA dissertation, and now know more than I ever thought I’d need to know about how the Coroner’s Service works. I’m writing a crime novel set in Lincoln for the creative part, I’ve got 9000 of the 13,000 words written. Just got to keep going.
And, after seeing a recommendation on here for Cordelia Fine’s books, I have read Delusions of Gender, absolutely loved it and want her other books. I’m going to tell my sisters to get them for me for my birthday, I think.

I’m not sure this will contribute but here’s a poem I wrote about the prevalence of shootings.
It contains violence, swearing, other dark situations so if this is disturbing I’d suggest scrolling past

The sound of guns
By Fluffy Spider
I hear a rapping on TV the sound of projectile killing,
The politicians up above sit docile and unwilling,
We plead to them to save our kids and stop the mass annihilation,
Our words hit fake deaf ears an continue the tribulation,
They Care when I want to stop birth but not the schoolyard madness,
Their guns mean more to their selfish whims then the sounds of screaming sadness,
Their rifles are their children dear and we are just in their way,
No one is safe from the bitter end but can’t they live today,
I see a world where blood streams down and their voices mock it,
And bitch about the lack of guns and other pandering bullshit,
They say they’d be a hero true but they dodged the draft last time,
To worship the dollar bill and build it a gilded shrine,
The sound of guns draws nearer still can’t we fucking stop it?
To protect our people young and old and not fucking mock it?
The bullets will hit and you’ll do nothing I don’t why I ask,
So I’ll just say with heavy heart what will you do when you’re the last?

A bit morbid but honestly it’s how I feel

@Fluffy Spider – do you mind if I share that elsewhere?

PS – should there be a “know” before “why” in the second to last line?

@Nanny Oggs Bosom

Wow, that’s huge news, on several fronts. Diagnosis, MA, more book writing, wow. I hope everything works out for you!

@Nanny Oggs Bosom
Congrats on the diagnosis. I hope you can finally get some help now. If itneeds saying, you’re a little different, no broken.

I’ll look forward to seeing your crime novel. I’m writing one set in an astronomical observatory in the Canary Islands. There are such good ways to kill people in a professional telescope.

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