By David Futrelle
Another day, another batch of atrocities and embarrassments, from Donald Trump challenging his secretary of state to a public IQ-test bakeoff to the release of a vomit-inducing tape of Harvey Weinstein demonstrating his, er, pickup technique.
Let’s start with that one, huh, because it’s somehow even worse than it sounds — so much so that you may want to think twice before listening to it.
Weinstein, in conversation with Gutierrez, admits to groping her. Here’s the audio: https://t.co/zSQbK5NV0c pic.twitter.com/vmrrSUp43w
— The New Yorker (@NewYorker) October 10, 2017
You can’t help but wonder how many dozens if not hundreds of times Weinstein has had similar, er, conversations with young, vulnerable women.
In other Harvey Weinstein news:
NYT: Gwyneth Paltrow and Angelina Jolie say Harvey Weinstein sexually harassed them when they were young actresses. https://t.co/1n7FgrNmoW
— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) October 10, 2017
https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/status/917526296925683713
https://twitter.com/xeni/status/917805989511913472
In non-Harvey Weinstein News That is Not Actually From The Onion, No Really, This is the World We Live in Today:
NEW: Trump proposes ‘IQ tests’ face-off with Tillerson after secretary of state calls him a ‘moron.’ https://t.co/kuCOSALDUl
— Philip Rucker (@PhilipRucker) October 10, 2017
How long before Trump tweets a screengrab of an online IQ test.
— Jemaine Clement (@AJemaineClement) October 10, 2017
I challenge Donald Trump to a public Buzzfeed "Tell Us Your Food Preferences And We'll Reveal Which Instagram Cat You Are" quiz showdown.
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) October 10, 2017
Still have not heard back from the White House on this one.
More news from the alternate reality we’re now stuck in: Melania Trump is feuding with Ivana Trump (yes, Ivana, not Ivanka) over who is the true First Lady.
https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/917450380044390400
Blurgledsvgpo4qwbwd.
Henry Kissinger is definitely alive and absolutely not being Weekend at Bernie’s-ed pic.twitter.com/xdYNUlrwdC
— Ashley Feinberg (ashleyfeinberg.bsky.social) (@ashleyfeinberg) October 10, 2017
https://twitter.com/pattymo/status/917583613918695424
https://twitter.com/morninggloria/status/917808982819033088
https://twitter.com/lyssfame/status/917127717820153856
Now, cats:
— ねこばす (@neko_bus2010) October 9, 2017
https://twitter.com/MeetAnimals/status/917260879430811648
Ok, some dogs too:
https://twitter.com/dognkitty/status/917382725610332160
https://twitter.com/awwcuteness/status/917244228836691969
Ok, bye.
http://secondnexus.com/social-commentary-and-trends/harvey-weinstein-sexual-misconduct-violated-contract/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_2bd6cff0b02b11e78240a3a6bbddd67d
What the fuck?!
@Hambeast: I am so sorry. There’s nothing more I can say. I’ve been there myself, and it never gets any easier.
@Gussie Jives: way late, but I’d recommend you to watch more Venture Brothers. It kind of starts out as discrete episodes parodying children’s adventure cartoons, but it grows a lot more plot arcs as it goes on. Kind of a comedy/soap-opera/adventure series. And the latest season is among the best so far, IMO.
The terms of the contract cast doubt on The Weinstein Company’s claims that any “suggestion that the Board had knowledge of this conduct is false.”
Weinstein was one of the founders, wasn’t he? So he basically wrote that contract – and no one on the board picked up on it as a almost free licence to be a disgustingly abusive waste of oxygen?
Yeah, right.
Edit – changed a mild word which could have been taken as minimising his actions.
@Hambeast
Sorry to hear about Catbeast. 🙁 Been there before… it’s tough.
@Redsilk
*sigh* Slavery was the worst mistake the Founding Fathers made. The Second Amendment was the second worst. The vague wording was just ripe to be exploited.
Another aspect to Spotlight that I’ve been thinking about is how a newcomer approaches this kind of heavy subject matter and what it reveals about people you think you know and you realize it’s closer than you think. The scene where Keaton and Ruffalo fill in John Slattery’s Ben Bradlee Jr. on the sheer number of priests involved comes to mind and I have to imagine that a lot of people (read: men) learning the facts for the first time had the same reaction to the Weinstein story:
Ben Bradlee Jr.: Ninety fucking priests?! In Boston?!
Robby: That’s what he said.
Ben Bradlee Jr.: If there were 90 of these bastards, people would know!
Mike Rezendes: Maybe they do.
Ben Bradlee Jr.: And no one said a thing?
Mike Rezendes: Good Germans.
Ben Bradlee Jr.: I don’t think that’s a comparison you want to make publicly.
But as Stanley Tucci says later in the film:
Mitchell Garabedian: This city, these people… making the rest of us feel like we don’t belong. But they’re no better than us. Look at how they treat their children. Mark my words, Mr. Rezendes. If it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse one.
He could just as easily be talking about Hollywood. It takes a whole industry to keep an open secret like Harvey Weinstein out of the press. Plenty of women already know a Harvey Weinstein in their lives and understand what women like Rose McGowan are going through. But what this case has that something like the Church abuse cases don’t is celebrity involvement, and I have to believe that this will keep reporters on this story for months and it’s going to force people to recognize some uncomfortable truths about the performers they think they’ve come to know. Which of their favourite actresses was assaulted by him. Which of their favourite actors covered it up. In the celebrity-obsessed social media world we live in, I really think this has the potential to clue people in much like the Spotlight team was.
The defense tactics will of course be to blame women (as it always is) and they’re already working that angle as best they can. I don’t think it’s going to work; the story stains too many people for it to be swept away. The only worry I have is if indifference sets in from the standpoint of the public; Trump’s vile actions didn’t cost him the election as it would in a sensible world. Assuming the reports do their jobs, I don’t see that happening a second time.
@Gussie
It’s actually worse than that. Trump’s vile actions are exactly what got him the 53 million or so votes that he got.
U.S society is bubonic plague level sick.
@Hambeast, I’m so sorry :C That’s such a hard thing to go through. I am glad at least that your kitty was able to get medication to avoid being in pain. <3
#Weinstein is a piece of garbage, so I'm entirely unsurprised that he'd wave around his contract to say "See, I'm allowed!” in reaction to his firing. Any humility, guilt or morality these assholes ever show is just that – a show. Like his therapy. He’s going to a ranch to drink beer and bitch about how hard it is being a millionaire producer. I hope he’s so toxic that no one ever touches him again, professionally or otherwise. I just know that after a couple of months he’ll be right back in those Hollywood parties, though. All those other rich asshole producers are no doubt thinking “that coulda been me”. They won’t ostracize him for a moment longer than the public demands it.
@peak182, siiiigh
I mean, WWTH and kupo said it all already, but I mean, really. The term “incel”, or “involuntary celibate” implies that they really want to have sex – so much that they make that their identifying factor. It also implies that they are not receiving sex, despite their desire for it. It puts the blame for their lack of sex on someone other than themselves.
Guess what group of people that someone else is?
They’re just another flavour of MRA, excusing their rape fantasies with “but I really want it! Really really! And it’s their fault I’m not gettin’ it!”
And let’s be honest here, that’s part of the playbook of every MRA/misogynist. Every time you hear someone say “Boys will be boys” or “He’s just a teenager, don’t ruin his future” or “just look at how she was dressed, can you blame him?” you’re hearing the exact same excuse the incels give. Women as sex objects.
Incels want a world in which women are sex objects, and they’re upset that they aren’t receiving their fair share. Like the saying – in the game of sexism, women aren’t the opposing team, they’re the ball.
Think about it and reply, @peak182. Let us know if you see what we’re saying or if we’ve “missed some important piece.”
Catching up…
@Gussie
You don’t whoops your way into accidentally writing black, chattel slavery into your Constitution, nor for empowering and arming militias to hunt black, chattel slaves. Let’s be careful about that “mistake” business
@peak
This same shit again. Yes, you hafta be attractive. TO. HER. That’s it. And not even necessarily in the hunky sense
Yeah, like… Uhm… There’s uhhh… Whatsisface… Nope, none come to mind -_-
Why are people proud to get laid anyway? I mean, besides toxic patriarchal bullshit that is…
@booburry
You’re right on base, and there’s nothing fresh about Bernie Sanders’ perspective. On much of anything, I find, but especially not when it relates to women. He really should politely refuse this one. Hillary Clinton and Liz Warren are right the fuck there, people!
@Axe
That’s a really good point. Reaching a level of intimacy with another person isn’t really a thing to be proud of and it’s treated like a status symbol for men but a negative mark or embarrassment for women. It completely ignores ace people and there’s this weird assumption that gay and no people are sluts. We really shouldn’t be reinforcing that kind of toxic mindset.
Ive replied to Kupo and I would like to hear your opinions on the reply
What if an INCEL blames himself and hates himself for the lack of sex he is getting? Not all love shy people hate women. The INCELS who are dont hate women steeer 10000000000000 miles away from reddit
And I agree that men arent entitled to sex, love or anything else. 100000000000000000000 % agree that INCELS dont deserve sex just because they desire it. Same with me. Ill say it again, feeling that women owe you sex is WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
All I am saying is you can be (or feel like) a helpless virgin who feels (or is undatable) who respects women and isnt entitled. Ive seen people like that before and there are lots of them out there if you look past reditt/4 chan shitfest.
And I dont want advice tbh.
The word “INCEL” isnt misogonistic on its own. Its their disgusting comments and awful attitude to women WHICH IS.
And MRA are a bunch of whinging little boys who act like they have barely passed puberty. Bunch of Idiots. Like the majority of Online INCELS
@Axecalibur
Fair cop, fair cop. “Worst aspect of society they upheld,” maybe?
Channel 4 news here is doing a series of interviews with Hillary Clinton. Worth a watch.
https://www.channel4.com/news/
Looks like Peak is in moderation because some more comments have shown up.
Yeah, that’s obvious. But why can’t you identify with women? Do you think we’re a separate species? What about women who can’t get laid? Do you realize that they do exist?
Okay, Kupo’s point apparently sailed right over your head.
Here’s a hint. What two words is “incel” a portmanteau of? Involuntarily celibate. The celibacy is involuntarily. As if it was something done to him by women rather than the result of bad fortune and/or his own bad choices. If you’re saying that your celibacy is involuntary, you’re saying that it’s something that women foist upon you. That is in and of itself misogynistic no matter how much lip service some incels might pay to women having the right to make our own choices. Men shouldn’t even have to think about it and accept that women can have preferences and choices of our own. It should be a given. Just as it is for men. Because we’re people.
I’m not inclined to give men any points for loving female family members either. It’s very common for misogynistic men to love the women they think of theirs. Although these men often think of them in very sexist ways. Jim Bob Duggar would surely say he loves his daughters. Yet he covered up his son’s sexual abuse of them and coerced them into forgiving and defending him. I also have a feeling that a lot of incels are the types of sons who expect mommy to do their chores for them and constantly dote on and validate them. Misogynists never fully exempt the women they “love” from their misogyny.
I mean, you don’t have to share personal info if you don’t want to but I generally side eye the word “can’t.” I thought the same way my first year at college when I was virgin. But looking back on it, I didn’t actually do anything about my unwanted virginal state. I didn’t actually put myself out there and flirt with guys. Until I did. Lo and behold! I did eventually get laid.
If you look at incel forums, they hate being offered advice on how to meet women. They hate suggestions that they go to therapy and work on their insecurities. They also tend to only want to have sex with young, conventionally attractive virgins and they want these young women to throw themselves at them.
You’re the one who brought it up. Own your words.
Involuntary Celibacy can also mean that the guy isnt good enough. Nothing done to him by women. Would you say female INCELS hate men then?
I have personally gave on on getting laid and accepted it. Nothing agaisnt women at all. Its tough fucking shit. No one owes me sex, thats how life goes. There will always be things I can do, there will be things Icant do. The human mind, as I said before, can make you obssess with things you cant get (sex/date in my case) rather than appreciating things you can get (I.e, degree, friends, family)
I stand by my statement, some male INCELS (maybe the 1% minority who dont go on reddit ranting, dont feel like women have oppressed him or owe him something). Some men feel like the celibacy is involuntary because of bad genetics, bad luck..ect. No blame attached to women. I dont believing in tarring everyone with the same brush
When I was young, I wondered what ‘mature wisdom’ would be like.
One example of it happening was when I realized that ‘I want my life to be different without having to change anything’ wasn’t a productive, useful or realistic attitude.
I’ve worked hard to change a lot of things, and my life is different now. Overall, much better. My suspicion that it would require focused effort on an ongoing basis turned out to be correct, but it’s definitely been worth it.
Incels are almost defined by, among other things, the conviction that their lives can only get better if *other people* change.
AngrySince11/09/16,
I’m sorry, and I understand completely. I wish you well.
@Hambeast
I’m so sorry. Take as long as you need to heal. Something like that happened with our Skinnybrat two years ago out of the blue and it hurt like hell. The Coconut is seventeen and in good fettle but she’s got stage 2 CRF and I’m never forgetting the clock is running out for her too.
Be good to yourself. They matter too.
Really? Because I’m confused.
I scanned the comments for about a page and a half before that comment and saw only discussion of TV and movies and condolences for Hambeast about her cat. I saw no attacks. I remember the argument she referred to, but that was months ago.
That flounce came out of nowhere and those always feel manipulative to me. Either announce you’re leaving during a disagreement or just stop commenting. Why just be like “you’re all mean and I’m leaving!” out of the blue unless it’s a ploy to make people feel bad or start a fight or something?
WWTH,
Yes. I understand completely.
I am not going to pretend that I know her motivations for announcing it this way, (I certainly wouldn’t do it that way, I just post less) but yes, I understand.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@GussieJives
I read “mistake” as meaning “thing”. Enough said.
Again, re Spotlight, I totally agree that often a new perspective can throw a whole situation open. If Spotlight teaches us anything, though, it’s that the same people can take a different approach, given the room for a different perspective. Yes, an Armenian and a Jew are pivotal, but you need the community to do the digging.
The motto I took away from the film (I forget if it’s an exact quote) was: if it takes a village to raise a child, it also takes a village to molest one. Outsiders can point out the emperor has no clothes, but only the crowd can see it.
ETA The thing I was left screaming at the screen on my first watch was “it was Catholic kids!” Don’t even.
I understand, too. Not what brought up that particular timing, but the sentiment behind it? Yes.
Yes. If someone doesn’t want to have sex with you and you have sex with them anyway, that’s rape. Just curious, what are you doing here if you’re not feminist? I don’t mean that in an accusatory way; I know tone can come off weird in text. I’m genuinely curious.
I said incel, specifically. Incels are not ‘men who cannot get laid’; they are people who believe that women not offering them sex is a personal attack against them. That you interpret incel in such a favorable light shows you do, in fact, identify with them to some extent.
Are you? You’re obsessed with this idea of men not getting laid. You first came here on an incel post defending the ‘good’ ones and then you bring them up on this thread when no one else was even discussing them.
Yes.
True.
Can’t you?
This is called confirmation bias. It’s possible to overcome with work, but you have to actually do that work.
Comments policy.
That’s a given.
As WWTH pointed out, you brought it up.
How about you find a place that actually is about debate rather than coming into feminist spaces and feeling sorry for people who want us dead or enslaved?
I tend to be oblivious to these types of things, but if there’s some sort of issue that a lot of people are having with the way things are with the culture here, than I think it’s best to confront it now before it turns into a huge dramatic mass exodus like we’ve had a couple of other times. It never comes to a good end when things are left to fester. If I’m part of the problem I would want to know about it so I can change it. Anyway, being upfront about is the only way it’s gonna change in general.
I’d hate to lose a lot of good people over a problem that may very well be fixable. I know it’s not always easy to confront issues but I hope people are willing to at some point. It’s the healthiest way. We had a big blowup a couple of years ago about dogpiling over ableist talk but David put it in the comments policy and asked people to just point to that and it really helped.
There is a certain … I don’t know what to call it, maybe “received wisdom” regarding the proper and correct way to be feminist and/or progressive. One particular thing that comes to mind because Angry brought it up, is the idea that we must hate the United States and all aspects of the US state because of [reason]. [reason] might be any or all of the many legitimately bad things that the US has done, collectively as a society or as a unitary state. For a while there was even a thing going around about how citizens of the US are not entitled to be called Americans because of reasons related to the name of the two continents, but I got pretty ticked about that one time and I haven’t seen it for a while.
I have feelings about this. I don’t hate the United States and it makes me uncomfortable when other people seem to compete with one another with how hard to slam it. It looks performative to me at times. The US is the Big Bad of the world and is like that one character on every TV show that everyone loves to hate. The US is faaaar from perfect, but I’m a political scientist by education and I know that states are moral actors only imperfectly, and no state is exempt from that. EVERY state that comes into some kind of great-power status ALWAYS abuses that power, and Tiny Country Victimized By America #28 would behave exactly the same way if it were to come into power, and probably already has on a smaller scale vs. whatever ethnic or religious minority it has at hand. Guaranteed. The US is not some kind of unique evil in the world.
But there is a received wisdom that you’re not doing progressivism properly if you think the US is actually kind of OK, or god forbid that you’re proud of any aspect of it. You have to think that every current and historical sin committed by the US is mortal and the US has no redeeming features whatsoever, or else you’re not really a progressive. I personally think that’s nonsense and I think I’m the most important kind of patriot – the kind that knows there are problems and who works to fix them, in the way that only someone who loves a broken thing can fix it. My country is broken and needs fixing. Someone who hates it won’t and can’t do that. There’s a certain degree of privilege required to take that attitude – I recognize that, and I think that makes it all the more important that I do take that attitude, because I do have the privilege to make that choice where others may not be able to make the same choice.
That’s just one example and the one that comes most readily to mind, but there are others.
There are some core values that, legit, you can’t be a progressive or feminist and believe X at the same time. There is a lot of penumbra around that umbra of core values that IMHO could use a little more open discussion and a little less purity-testing. I can’t speak for Angry or for PeeVee, but I personally stay out of a lot of threads because there is too much purity-testing going on and I don’t want to pick that battle today.
peak182 says:
There’s nothing about having views that requires you to share them. In fact, it shows contempt for others when you aggressively impose your uninformed opinions on them. If you want to find out others’ views, then you can just listen to them. If you prefer to have “debates” (ie. actively put yourself in opposition to others’ views), then what you’re really seeking is attention, not understanding.
PoM:
You pretty much nailed it, so thank you.