off topic open thread

90s Throwback Sunday Tanya Donnelly Open Thread

This popped up on my Spotify recommendations. I’d forgotten how much I loved this song, especially the growly bits where Tanya Donelly sings along with the guitar riff. And I’d never seen the video. (There was no YouTube in 1991, obviously; I’m not sure I even had cable.)

While I’m at it, here’s another Throwing Muses song from the same album, this time with  Kristin Hersh on lead vocals.

And here’s a little something from Tanya Donnelly’s later band Belly. It’s a live clip, introduced by a baby Jon Stewart! Just look at him! He’s SO YOUNG.

Anyway, enjoy. And consider this an open thread. for non-personal stuff. I’ll put up one for personal stiff in a moment. As always, these open threads are for regular WHTM commenters/readers and basically anyone who isn’t an MRA or antifeminist or troll.

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ Brony

My view of it is “I’m allowed to say things that make you feel bad because I’m used to it, but you can’t say things that make me feel bad because that’s outrageous

I see it more as classic school bully mentality.

If their victims ‘tell on them’ then they’re just a ‘sneak’ and that’s unacceptable (“You shouldn’t grass” and all that)

But when someone just smacks them back then they’re the first ones who go crying off to teacher.

6 years ago

I almost peed with excitement at the new Game of Thrones trailer!

It was much needed pick me up for a Monday.

6 years ago

TBs vlog “Rise of VR and end of drama” (or something like that)
His “Enter the Gungeon” livestreams. (Archived on a fan channel)
On that archive there’s also a vid named “literally nothing” (or somesuch), which is his spitestream.

I’m not getting the links, so as not to give him views.

As to the reputation thing: I would definitely be mindful of my reputation.
TB on the other hand has a history of pigheadedness and doubling down on bullshit, and it just seems to me that he just decided to drop the mask entirely.
I mean noone worried about their reputation would touch TJ Kirk with a ten yard stick.

6 years ago

The IGDA has issued a statement about the Alison Rapp incident. They don’t have as much power as the ESA, but it’s a good start.

6 years ago

brony: I can’t really speak to the topic you’re trying to write about, but I can point to a couple of decent works by other writers:

The Dilbert Principle, by Scott Adams. Yes, Adams is a douchebro of the highest order. But this was his first book, before his ego became completely unmanageable, and thus has some decent stuff in it, including his own breakdown of the elements of humor. If you opt for this, look for a cheap copy at a used bookstore (Half-Priced Books usually has some in stock), so as to not actually give him any more money.

The Road To Mars, by Eric Idle (of Monty Python fame). This novel you can buy new and feel good about. The plot mirrors the classic road movies (two guys, traveling and trying to survive) of the early era of comedy film, but with a twist–it’s told from the point of view of their robotic companion, who is attempting to do a treatise on what humor is, and why it exists. The book is, itself, a very long set-up for a very subtle pun, which makes it nicely meta. My only real critique is that, like much of Monty Python, it completely fails the Bechdel Test.

EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

IIRC, Wittgenstein defined humour as “two stories, one less worthy than the second, with an unexpected switch between them.”

For example in the tile incident, there is the worthy explanation (people make mistakes) and the unworthy explanation (someone was filled with hatred towards all of civilisation and chose to express it by deliberately placing a tile in a slightly wrong position.) By drawing our attention to the tile, the joke sets up the first explanation in our minds, and then suddenly switches to the second. Hence, humour.

This is why jokes aren’t funny the second time: the switch is no longer expected.

This is also how my favourite joke (The Reverse Aristocrats) works. It relies upon the audience knowing The Aristocrats, and then telling them a very long story which does not become obscene in any way. At some point they will realise this. The “worthy” story (a conventionally filthy telling of The Aristocrats) is replaced with an “unworthy” one (an entirely banal and unremarkable tale which you are wasting your time by listening to) unexpectedly. The longer the teller draws it out the more “unworthy” the second story becomes and so the more funny it is.

EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

I’m going to vent for a moment.

Can we as humanity just agree to learn to differentiate “what I am romantically attracted to” from “what I think is a good idea”? Aaaargh.

Last night I had a conversation with several people, one of whom was a very loud (and slightly drunk) woman who explained to everybody how she thought that men being sensitive and intelligent was a bad thing. Real men were strong, silent and authoritative, she explained; they didn’t negotiate but just took what they wanted.

Sadly, several men agreed with her and started talking about how “real women” were a pleasure to work with and to date, but all these modern women had strayed from the template in ways that were unacceptable. Society would be better, they opined, if everybody [insert a list of bullshit genderbinaries that I don’t want to type out.]

Did I stay silent? Yes I did, because it wasn’t my event and I didn’t want to be blamed for ruining it by starting an argument. Reader, you may have read my work before, and if so you may understand that this was difficult for me.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Re: Humor and jokes.
I think I’m just going to call the second one a “conceptual juxtaposition” and go from there. I’m not sure about how emotion gets transferred, shunted or whatever else functionally happens anyway.

How is your name pronounced? I want my internal monologue more accurate while I read.

I think that topics like this are things where anyone can have a contribution. We are still working it out and if we all experience the mental phenomena in question a perspective that helps to figure it out can come from anywhere. A study would be nice, but it’s just me and I have limited resources. Besides, plenty of things in psychology originate from people just thinking about what we already know and talking to other people about it.

As for Jerry Seinfeld’s joke. I think you’re missing a part of humour – humour as social lubricant. Jokes and humour are meant to ease people, they’re a sign of friendship and easy communication.

I am admittedly deemphasizing the social lubricant aspect of humor here, but I’m not neglecting it and I will be addressing it. My main focus will be on how when group psychology is thrown in what is a social lubricant to one group (sexist bigots and insulting juxtapositions) becomes social weapons against another (feminists, and muslims as a secondary target). Humor is a phenomena that changes according to a lot of variables:

*Type of humor (self-enhancing, self-deprecating, affiliative, aggressive). Humor can be more than one of these at the same time too. My ADHD support group got into an interesting discussion about the “black humor” that was used by Jews in Ireland that combined several of these.

*Is the target of the humor personal or impersonal? If the target is a person, or personal characteristic (less sensitive but in some people) that can invoke more intense emotions in either direction.

*Psychological in-group/out-group effects. Humor can be different depending on if it is perceived by in-group or out-group members (especially humor about another group), or if it is about an in-group member.

Group A [A1, A2…]
Group B [B1, B2…]
There are at least four perspectives for an individual in there:
-[individual]-[whole in-group]
-[individual]-[in-group member]
-[individual]-[whole out-group]
-[individual]-[out-group member]
…and positive and negative perspectives for each.

*Relationship to target of humor. Are you the target? Is it an in-group member? Is it an out-group member? Is it your group? This is similar to the above, but it covers seeing an in-group member being a target.

*Time. (The phenomena of it being “too soon” for some humor)

I’m sure there is more I will need to note at some point. Humor is a social lubricant, but it does not lubricate everyone, everyone the same way, and even does the opposite.

This usually includes indirect communication – metaphors and examples instead of direct description. So, “you’d rather be dead that speaking in public” -> “you’d rather be in the casket than at the podium.”

I think that is part of how the humor works. In my experience non-literal references actually add complexity that seems to make the humor more intense and amusing.
Those are good things to bring up. Let me know what you think if you think I should consider anything else. Thanks!

@Alan Robertshaw

I see it more as classic school bully mentality.

I agree and should have been more specific,. That is my mocking rewrite that displays the illogic of the position that is a bully mentality. They want to portray others as being oversensitive for their complaints about things that bother them, which is expressing sensitivity about being bothered. This is usually combined with an utter lack of specificity about what others are complaining about, because avoiding that is the point.

If their victims ‘tell on them’ then they’re just a ‘sneak’ and that’s unacceptable (“You shouldn’t grass” and all that)

I wonder what the adult version of that one is.

>But when someone just smacks them back then they’re the first ones who go crying off to teacher.
The adult version of that one I have heard, it’s the unexpanded insistence that what the other person is saying is outrageous, and the mythologizing of how “conversation gets shut down when people use sexist/racist”.

Thanks! I’ll see if I can get a copy.

Sorry to hear that. I had one of those last night at my ADHD support group as well. I need to look up some criticisms about attraction and evopsych now. Hopefully a different event will work out better.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

This is great. I love octopuses (octopi?, octopedes?)

This story could only be better if the staff noticed one of their cars was missing as well.

@ brony

Sorry for not replying earlier. Only just saw your post; but yep, agree totally.

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