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antifeminism chivalry citation needed dude you've got no fucking idea what you're talking about matriarchy rape culture scott adams

Scott Adams: We live in a matriarchy because men have to get permission for sex

Matriarchy in action?
Matriarchy in action?

The Paris attacks have inspired cartoonist and opinion-haver Scott Adams to reflect on some of the true injustices in the world today.

Specifically, the fact that in the United States, men often pay for dates, yet cannot have sex with women without getting their permission first.

In a blog post that is incoherent even by his standards, Adams compares the male-dominated societies of the Middle East with what he describes as “female-dominated countries” like the US.

In his mind, American men live in a matriarchal dystopia in which women force men to pay for dinner and open car doors for them:

When I go to dinner, I expect the server to take my date’s order first. I expect the server to deliver her meal first. I expect to pay the check. I expect to be the designated driver, or at least manage the transportation for the evening. And on the way out, I will hold the door for her, then open the door to the car.

Weird, because I’ve literally never had a date like that. And even if all this were true, as a general thing, it wouldn’t be proof that the US is “female-dominated.” Chivalry is part of patriarchy, not proof of matriarchy.

When we get home, access to sex is strictly controlled by the woman.

Er, dude, that’s how sex works. Both sex partners have to agree to it, otherwise it’s rape. And men have veto power when it comes to sex just like women do. Women aren’t allowed to force themselves on unwilling partners any more than men are.

If the woman has additional preferences in terms of temperature, beverages, and whatnot, the man generally complies. If I fall in love and want to propose, I am expected to do so on my knees, to set the tone for the rest of the marriage.

What a romantic fellow, proposing to a woman even though she’s some kind of spoiled princess who has preferences about room temperature and refuses to have sex when she doesn’t want to have sex.

Also, Adams wants everyone to know that when he talks over women in meetings, it’s not that he’s a sexist, it’s just that women talk too much.

Women have made an issue of the fact that men talk over women in meetings. In my experience, that’s true. But for full context, I interrupt anyone who talks too long without adding enough value. If most of my victims turn out to be women, I am still assumed to be the problem in this situation, not the talkers.

But really, the problem is that ladies just won’t shut up amirite fellas high five!

The alternative interpretation of the situation – that women are more verbal than men – is never discussed as a contributing factor to interruptions. Can you imagine a situation where – on average – the people who talk the most do NOT get interrupted the most?

Uh, yes. Because that’s not just a hypothetical “situation.” It’s the way the world actually works.

I don’t know if the amount of talking each person does is related to the amount of interrupting they experience, or if there is a gender difference to it, but it seems like a reasonable hypothesis. 

Unfortunately for Adams, this is a hypothesis that’s been repeatedly disproved. Men talk more than women in meetings, yet are more likely to interrupt women than women are to interrupt them.

Weird how Adams, who thinks of himself as a rational sciencey guy, didn’t even bother to do the 30 seconds of Googling that would have shown that his “reasonable hypothesis” was a crock.

Speaking of weirdness, Adams goes on to suggest that he might turn to terrorism if no one gives him a hug. Literally.

So if you are wondering how men become cold-blooded killers, it isn’t religion that is doing it. If you put me in that situation, I can say with confidence I would sign up for suicide bomb duty. And I’m not even a believer. Men like hugging better than they like killing. But if you take away my access to hugging, I will probably start killing, just to feel something. I’m designed that way. I’m a normal boy. And I make no apology for it.

NOTE TO SELF: Do not invite Scott Adams to any party without also inviting this dude:

Capturefreehugs

Or maybe don’t invite Adams to any parties at all.

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dhag85
6 years ago

@Pandapool

Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts. Now I feel a little bit bad for asking, though. Didn’t mean to make you sad.

The good thing about all the cons you list is that they are mostly things I already knew, so at least there aren’t too many new things to be sad about. The pros seem worthy of exploring, I think.

My biggest concern about my own identity is I wouldn’t really know what it would mean for me to “come out”, if those are even the right words for what I’m doing. I don’t have any burning desire to change my name or do anything that would have any real impact on my everyday life. All of this is happening on the inside, so I’m not entirely sure what I could gain from bringing any of this up with people who don’t/won’t know me very well, such as work acquaintances and classmates.

However, talking through all this stuff with people who have had similar experiences would probably be helpful. I’m lucky enough to have a wife who I can be completely open with, so at least I’m not keeping this entirely to myself.

Thanks again for your insights on this. I’ve checked out the links you posted before as well.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
6 years ago

@dhag

You don’t have to apologize for making me sad. It’s, like, everything else that needs to apologize and straighten themselves up. XD

And it’s your own experience, your own choices, your own life. You do what you think is best for it and know that many support you, even if others don’t.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

dhag — I’m probably not adding much here, but I’m only really “out” online and to my handful of friends, but even before I was going “ok, so this is a thing I can be and I don’t have to continue this nonsense”. Not doing my annual “I’m so not comfy with my assigned gender and various bits, but I don’t want to transition to the opposite gender either” has been lovely. Just that sense of “yes, this is who I am”.

To shamelessly steal from pop culture — you do you.

bvh
bvh
6 years ago

@snowberry

It’s not meant to be insensitive to people who are averse to masturbation for whatever reason, at least I didn’t read it like that. I read it in the vein of there is only one person you have a RIGHT to demand sex from: yourself. Everything else is a privilege of consent to be negotiated.

Now, if one’s social skills are stunted, this presents a problem. If one isn’t even aware that social skills are stunted, this problem is a frustration of (apparently) mysterious origin. Most persons with a blind spot get feedback from friends to see this, but people who eat Red Pills tend to live in echo chambers.

As an aside, this is one of the hopeful benefits if sex work is decriminalized: those awkward folks can just pay someone to get off. Unfortunately, these people would probably still try to take their suppressed rage at women out on sex workers, even if sex work was legal.

Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

Re: the tea analogy

This always reminds me of Mrs Doyle from Father Ted and Father Jack’s response:

“Now Father, what would you say to a nice cup of tea?”

“Feck Off Cup!!!’

Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ Kupo

We once had a “wear your pyjamas to work day” for some charity.

At lunchtime one of my friends went to the Post Office. She was wearing her jammies, slippers and a dressing gown. Unfortunately the Post Office is next to the hospital and the staff thought she’d wandered off of one of the wards and tried to escorts her back.

“But I’m a lawyer!”

“Of course you are. Now you just sit down here and someone will be along shortly”

She knew better than to ask them to ring us for confirmation; we would have denied all knowledge of her.

HDB
HDB
6 years ago

Hi, fellow non-binary people! (FTR, I’m good with any neutral pronouns, will also accept male, not female. I feel like this makes my psyche sexist, but I can’t help the wrongfeels.)

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

I definitely don’t want to stomp around with my cis opinions being a jackass so please let me know if I’m sticking my nose in where it doesn’t belong. It’s just that someone said something to me recently in regards to my sexuality that might also be helpful in this circumstance, so I thought I might share it.

Often I struggle with this sort of imposter syndrome about being bi, like I’m really straight and just lying to myself, stealing queerness from the Real Queers ™. I was telling someone that, that calling myself straight felt like a violation of who I was but that I didn’t want to be claiming an identity that I don’t have a right to. They said: “straight people don’t spend half of their energy agonizing over whether they’re straight or not. They don’t constantly evaluate their attractions to other people. They just go around, comfortable with their unmarked identity.” I can assure you that, as a cis person, I really don’t use up any energy at all trying to determine if I’m actually trans. It’s very easy to be cis, because nobody ever questions it.

And just to reiterate, if anyone here ever wants to be referred to in a certain way, even if you’re still figuring out what your identity is, even if you change your mind a week later, even if you think it’s silly, I will honour your wishes.

dlouwe
dlouwe
6 years ago

@dhag85

Your feelings and experiences seem to be very similar to my own (zero attachment to the idea of being male, but also outwardly very cis male passing), and I also found it really difficult to figure out what my feelings about my identity actually “meant” in a practical sense. In the end, it didn’t really “mean” much outwardly, but I still think it was and still is an important journey.

One thing that really helped me along my way was realizing that there’s no set standard; there’s no sign that says “you must be *this* queer to ride.” It’s perfectly fine to accept and embrace your personal truth even if it looks nothing at all like anyone else’s.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
6 years ago

@HBD

😀 Hi fellow non-binary individual! Gender neutral or he/him pronouns duly noted!

@Viscara

Oh, no, it’s perfectly understandable. In fact, I know a handy little website called amitransgender.com for anyone who has ever question whether or not they aren’t cis. Because questioning and second guessing yourself usually means around one thing or so.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

“there’s no sign that says ‘you must be *this* queer to ride.'”

This is a thing that needs to exist. On like, underwear, or gay bars, or such. Mostly I’m just sitting in a B&N Starbucks trying not to audibly laugh at it.

dhag85
6 years ago

@Viscaria

That’s a very good point and I’ve never thought about it that way before. I do actually spend some time questioning my sexuality, but I think that’s just because I like to question things. I don’t spend nearly as much time with that as I do with gender identity, and the answers I find are so much clearer.

@dlouwe

It’s nice to know other people have had similar experiences. 🙂

dhag85
6 years ago

@Pandapool

I clicked the link. :p

dhag85
6 years ago

As for pronouns, I don’t usually correct people online unless there’s a practical reason to do so. For example, on my Minecraft server a few people assumed I was a woman and used female pronouns for me. At first I didn’t correct them, but since my wife is on the same server and we sometimes use voice chat I figured this might turn into a weird conversation in the future if I don’t say something now. But apart from any such context, I genuinely don’t have a preference for pronouns.

Kat
Kat
6 years ago

Amanda Marcotte over at Salon.com discusses the Scott Adams kerfuffle and MRAs, etc., in this article:

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/24/who_needs_maxim_when_you_hate_women_on_reddit_and_4chan/

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
6 years ago

In Finnish the pronouns are gender neutral so speaking other languages I’m always faced with the question of how pronouns work for which identities. Thanks for this discussion, it’s been very interesting! Also I didn’t know about the swedish ‘hen’, I have a feeling that might become useful in some situations.

Funnily enough in many parts of Finland it’s not very common to use the 3rd person pronouns ‘hän’ (singular) and ‘he’ (plural), but rather we call people ‘it’. Where I’m from I say ‘it’, except when I’m talking about someone’s beloved animal friend in which case I find it more polite (and adorable) to say ‘hän’. For some reason my own dog is an exception, being referred to as ‘it’. I think it’s because I know him personally and perhaps personify him a little bit.

dhag85
6 years ago

@Leda Atomica

Actually, when the word “hen” was coined in 1966 the author referenced the Finnish “hän” specifically.

Aris Boch
6 years ago

His comments about women are at best disconcerting and at worst completely fucked up, but he also says, that a patriarchy is worse and shows the shit going on in DAESHistan (the border between Syria and Iraq is mostly a moot thing now) as an example. Also, the picture and the line of text above of it smacks too much of homophobia.

Orion
Orion
6 years ago

“What about places that have a second doorway? Do you hold the first doorway open, then barrel past her to get to the second one?”

This is actually a great opportunity to find out if the woman you’re with is enjoying the door ritual, and to differentiate flirting-by-door from common courtesy. After a man open the first door, and the woman goes through before him, she has the option to either open the second do and hold it for him, or to step off to the side and and wait for him to pass.

Orion
Orion
6 years ago

British readers will no doubt be familiar with the “After you”, “No, after you”, “But I insist” ad infinitum scenario.

I’ve never understood how this happens. You say “no, after you,” once, and then you let them win. It doesn’t seem that difficult. But there are many challenges of english life which I struggle to empathize with.

An Englishman of my acquaintance once said that he envied Americans for our optimism. To paraphrase him, he said that Americans genuinely believe they can do anything if believe in himself and try hard enough, but that the English just don’t have that confidence. I told him that he could be an optimist too if he really tried; he just has to believe he can do it. For some reason, he did not find this helpful.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
6 years ago

@dhag85

That’s interesting! I’m also impressed that this was discussed in -66.

dhag85
6 years ago

@Leda Atomica

Way ahead of his time, that guy. It was a very obscure and rarely discussed word for decades. According to Per Ledin, a professor at Örebro University, the word “hen” only started being regularly used online in 2008 and 2009, but almost all of the hits came from one single trans blogger who happened to be blogging quite a lot. Its use only started spreading in 2012. At this point the word is very widely known, but still rarely (sadly) used outside of blogs and other media which specifically deal with gender issues.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
6 years ago
Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
6 years ago

@ dhag85

I sometimes read swedish online publications and will keep an eye on this thing. It’s one of those kinds of things that I want to take as a sign of good things spreading. It’s at least nicer to think about the world inheriting this sort of attitudes than the pessimism bumping around the internet misogyny has been building up in me.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
6 years ago

I just read my own comment and I apologise for the word salad. My meds sometimes make me forget words and create oddly constructed sentences.

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