After that last post, I realized we were probably overdue for one of these. As always with these open threads, no trolls, no MRAs (or people who bear a striking resemblance to MRAs).
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Open Thread for Non-Personal Stuff: Kitten in a beanbag edition
Hey, guys, I’m trying to write some koans since I kinda don’t want to use all Zen koans for a part of the magic book thingy I’m writing. I’m wondering if you guys would like to read some maybe? I’m not Zen expert (more Dude than Buddah) so, yeah, keep that in mind.
If you got any suggestions, hey, you know, tell me.
Here’s my favorite ridiculous magical symbols- the Behenian fixed stars: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behenian_fixed_star
I was so jazzed the first time I noticed them in Gravity Falls.
@Binjabreel
Wow! There’s so pretty! They even have corresponding plants and gemstones and everything! o3o
Definitely gonna have to make a set a symbols inspired by these! Thank you so much!
(Magnet is a gemstone!)
Oh, and if anyone is interested, I’ve got a bunch of symbol sets already done, so if anyone is interested in seeing them, I’ll post them in a few days, m’kay?
@Jackie: Those are very cool. I know too much about koans since I did some research on them a few months ago for a writing project; let me know if you want me to textwall about it.
I’m very interested in seeing the symbols.
@EJ
I actually rewrote and thought some other koans up after I posted. (Because being insomniac means you have TWICE the amount of time to do pointless shit.)
I kept the evil man and grandmother one, but rewrote the Mary one and wrote all new ones.
@EJ
I forgot to say you can scoop me up some icy koan knowledge, brah.
Those are very cool. I like the first three more than the fourth, for reasons textwalled below.
In real Buddhism – especially in the Japanese Rinzai sect – koans have expected answers, which are not supposed to be arrived at flippantly but which are used as teaching tools. A teacher will pose a particular koan to the student, and will expect them to meditate on it ceaselessly until they reach a particular answer. When they reach that answer then (hopefully) it’s because their mind has shifted in order to produce that desired outcome.
This is kind of like flipping the switches in a dark room until you find the one that turns on the light you want: when you find the right answer then you stop, because that’s the one you were looking for. In Buddhism, you then move to the next koan. There are strict “progressions” of koans one works through, and for monks at least it’s an intensely guided process.
A Buddhist koan is intended to be a way to force the brain to change its gears and do something it wasn’t doing before. As such, questions which would sound interesting to us and provoke interesting discussions make poor koans – they play to our brains as they are now, rather than our brains as they should be. For this reason a koan will normally sound nonsensical when you initially hear it.
For example, the first koan taught to students of the Rinzai sect is the famous “what is the sound of one hand clapping?” The answer, somewhat less well-known, is “I am.” By understanding that she herself, through her questioning, has become part of the koan and so her mind and the question are no longer separate entities, the novice monk has become more open to understanding the deeper mysteries of the later koans. Their master will guide them through this koan again and again until they reach this realisation, or get frustrated and leave.
Buddhists do this in order to teach a Buddhist frame of mind. Your magicians are doing it to teach a magical frame of mind – that is, to help students develop the mental toolsets in order to manipulate The Elements and The Corrupt by thinking the same way that they do. The more koans magicians go through, the less human and logical their brain is, and the more attuned it is to the way magic works.
As such, koans which question the innate nature of things and which force you to reconcile apparent contradictions in order to reach a higher consciousness which could not be explained through logic, seem the most badass. Your first three do this admirably. The fourth seems like a more human thing: it’s a question about morality, about Bayesian reasoning, about symbols, and about family loyalty. It’s not a question about magic. (Unless it is.)
Here’s one by Rebecca Sean Borgstrom, which I believe can be adapted admirably to your setting as I understand it.
Answer: “Magic.”
@EJ
Ah, I see. When I was researching koans, I thought that koans were suppose to have multiple interpretations instead of one answer. I thought writing a koan that could have multiple interpretations and having student record their thoughts about it would show how they’ve grown, since as we get older, our thoughts change about certain subjects.
For instance, the story of the man crossing the street might seem sad to someone. They might interrupt him as failing his goals or even, well, committing suicide because of his phobia since the story is pretty vague. Later on, after dealing with some of their own failings, they may revisit it and interrupt him as brave and commemorate him for trying. The purpose of the koan is to make a student think critically on the story and try to see as many sides as possible over time rather than guide them to only one answer. Critical thinking skills which could be used to make smarter decisions when casting magic.
Of course, I guess I could have the teacher try to guide them to the one “real” answer after all. It makes more sense with what I’m trying to do, teaching wise anyway. Here’s some quotes to show what I’m trying to do.
Learning magic is all about controlling yourself, really.
And I can’t take credit for the Mary one. It’s a ripoff of an already existing koan.
Is critical thinking useful when casting magic? From what you said earlier to katz, it sounded to me as though magic was something that was impervious to normal human critical thinking and needed you to rewire your intuition to make sense of it.
Either answer is acceptable. It’s your world. But it’s worth having an answer straight in your head, so you can write it consistently. “Magic responds to each person’s vision of it and changes depending on the caster” is very Tolkienesque. “Magic is true to itself, keeps its own laws and will change the magician” is very Lovecraftian. It depends what you’re going for.
Those quotes make magic seem very shamanic: the magician is going forth and spiritually grappling with magic itself; and must be strong and resolute in order to avoid being twisted to its whims rather than twisting it to her own. That’s a very enjoyable position to take and one which your readers will thoroughly enjoy, because it plays up the “magician as special person” aspect and therefore lets them think of themselves as special by relating to the characters.
As for ripping off, remember the famous quote:
@EJ
Magic teaching is still deeply concentrated on not having the caster die – whether that’s from letting your own magic consume you or being careless with bottled magic. The worst mistake a magic user could do is let your emotions get the better of you.
However, the way magic is taught all around offense and defense, in the frame of battle. I don’t remember off hand if the copy I posted mentioned it or if I had deleted the description from the book, but The Elements are often labeled as offensive magic while The Corrupt is defensive magic. Elements are Fire, burning, Water, drowning, Earth, crushing, Metal, piercing, Air, throwing. The Corrupt are Blood, controlling, Mind, confusing, Dark, shielding, Light, healing, Shade, deceiving.
But the main point of critical thinking skills, seeing something in many different ways, is to ensure they are using the right magic for the situation in battle. One wrong casting choice and you’re dead. Of course, teaching a student to be battle ready is kinda outdated now but it’s a very ingrain in teaching. Many ways wizards teach is outdated, but they keep to it because wizards are as stubborn as they are anal.
Also, that quote actually was T.S. Eliot’s and originally went, “Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal,” in 1920 before Steve Jobs turned it into, “Good artists borrow. Great artists steal,” and attributed it to Pablo Picasso in 1988.
I know this because Pablo Picasso, while overrated, isn’t an asshole like that. I also did a report on him for school.
I found another quote you might want to use by
Alfred Tennysonyourself, because you’re magnificent: “That great poets imitate and improve, whereas small ones steal and spoil.”Such wise words you say. 😀
Nope, checked the copy I posted. It mentions a bit about offensive and defensive magicks. Hopefully in a few days when the first draft is finished, everyone who is interested will have a much more decent idea of what my magicks are. Sometimes I just have to remember that not everyone had my notes and stuff.
I spoiled the Splatoon plot for myself. Love it. Watch a few play videos and looks pretty fun.
And if I had known earlier that Wii U doesn’t have a subscription fee…
Well, when I come into some money, I just might buy myself a Wii U afterall.
I just spent seven packets of yeast, half a dozen eggs, and pretty much all the other ingredients in the house on a batch of cinnamon roll dough that will not rise. Now I have the choice of either staying up all night to make something half-assed for the bake sale or bringing nothing and having to deal with all Those People wanting to know why not.
Just felt like complaining.
@katz
Ah, man. :/ Have you tried setting it on something hot? Like on top of a warming stove? That’s what my mom does to help bread rise faster.
I also did a quick google search for ways to fix dough that isn’t rising, so maybe you’d like a look?
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-Dough-That-Won't-Rise
Oh, here might be the problem:
There’s no cinnamon in the actual dough, but good thought. (Also, what a weird fact. It’s like how pineapple juice makes jello not set.)
@katz
I’d set it on something warm then, if you haven’t. Even the article mentioned it.
I really hope your dough rises. It would be such a waste for it not. 🙁 Or people could just deal with flat rolls, it taste the same if slightly different textured. At least I wouldn’t mind.
Okay, I have some alchemy/magic/whatever symbols done.
http://i.imgur.com/3yUyvC6.png
(Hope the link works. The imagine is a little large for the page, IMO.)
Try to guess what magicks they are by their symbols, if you can. 😀
The first row are the very first symbols I made couple of months ago when I first started writing my magic stuff. I wanted lots of swirls and spirals because spirals are magic and awesome.
Second row? IDK, I was playing with stuff.
Third row is the first set I made on some old symbols which showed the classical elements as triangles. (This is also on the Elizabethan elements). They turned out to be kinda art deco-y, so not really practical.
The next two are a set. The Elizabethan symbols split The Elements and The Corrupt into triangles and circles to denote their different natures. The short-hand is just the first letter of the Old English word for the magicks.
The first of the Arabic set is an old, outdated set based on the Behenian fixed star symbols. I tried to base them on actual star constellations but they heavily edited. The constellations are Canis major, Aquila, Serpens, Corona Borealis, Carina, Capricornus, Sagittarius, Orion, Draco and Hydra.
The last part of the Arabic set go together as the simplified ones (the numbers) are the fix degree of the constellations below them. I tried to match each magic to a constellation based on their legends and elements associated with them. The simple set would be used in everyday formulas while the constellation set would be used in fancy-pancy books and scrolls. I made the simple set based on the fix degrees because I have no idea what the first letter of each magic name would be in Arabic without feeling I am doing it wrong. :/
The modern set is my fav, which is why they’re colored in. The simple set is the first letter of each of the proper names of the elements while the symbols show what the Corrupt Magic is made of.
The Victorian set is much like the modern set, except both the simple and symbols show The Corrupt are made of Elements. Peeps back then were all heavy on the science so they made their symbols all sciencey, making the simple set based on the Greek names of magicks.
Oh, the image posted anyway. All I did was post the link. I didn’t use tags. 😐
Also, katz, I hope your dough turned out well or it turned out alright in the end.
Are they (left to right): fire, air, earth, metal, water, blood, mind, light, dark, shade? I got thrown a bit because the Victorian symbol for fire is also the real-world astrological symbol for the earth. Knowing Latin kind of makes the modern set a giveaway though.
I really like the Arabic and Victorian sets. You’ve put a lot of work into these and it really shows off. Congrats!
The Arabic ones are especially great because they genuinely look like something from a different culture, one which has studied magic via astrology rather than via alchemy. It’s a very plausible form of “we’re both studying the same thing but from different cultural backgrounds, so we arrive at the same truth via different starting points and so have different sets of symbols for the same thing.” That happens a lot in physics and so seeing it in the magical symbols makes me happy.
The Elizabethan and Deco sets are awesome too. I love the continuity between the two – each age updates its magic based on its own way of seeing the world, but because the things they’re describing are timeless truths, there’s always some continuity.
Overall, great. Really like it.
@EJ
Yes, you got those all correct. I was thinking, “Man, what are the changes that someone knows Latin enough to actually figure out which of the symbols are?” Then, I was like, “Eh, don’t care.” 😛
Anyway, actually the Arabic symbols are based a lot on Greek astrology. This is because IRL Arabic alchemy is pretty much Greek alchemy. For instance, the Fire symbol, based on the Behenian symbols, is Canis Major, which the principal star Sirius (:(). Sirius (:(), in Greek, means “burning” which makes sense because it’s the brightest star in the sky. (I am making myself sad.) The Light symbol, however, is based on Orion, which its starts being Bellatrix (>:(), Alnilam, Nair al Saif, Saiph, and Meissa. Warrioress, arrangement, bright one of the sword, sword, and shinning, respectively. While these denote confrontation, they actually symbolize Light’s ability to heal such wounds through its powers.
You see, way back, IRL (as far as I know), before the Library of Alexandria got burned down, Arabic scholars copied many Grecian alchemical texts. This made much of Arabic alchemy and astrology based on Greek alchemy and astrology. Meanwhile, most magic in Western Europe was based on Roman theories, with Roman teachings. The Romans were more into using magic as a weapon through magic casting while the Greeks were more into studying magic through alchemy.
Around sometime in the 10th/11th centuries, the Greek studies of magic and alchemy made its way to Western Europe through traveling Arabic scholars. They embraced a lot of Arabic teachings and theories, but still held onto the Roman way of thinking of magic. You can see the Greek influenced by the triangle symbols, with Plato’s Theory of Form being the main inspiration for The Elements symbology.
Of course, Western European and Arabic magic is still studied very differently. The book I’m working on concentrates on Western European or, as it was called way back when, Imperialistic magic style which is dominate in many English speaking countries, along with India and Mexico, where a large percent of “proper” magic teachings are based in English.
Imperialist magic being taught to the locals? Awesome. That’s a neat idea.
You’re making me very excited for this. I’m envious of your knowledge of alchemy (I’m as sad as you are) and it sounds really good.
@EJ
“Neat” as in horribly racist and classist? Yes, yes it is. Of course, there’s also classism within the magic community via innate versus non-innate since Imperial magic tends to favor innate individuals since they are more “battle ready” with all the Roman style thinking going on. I’m not sure what to call it yet, though. “Magist”?
This book won’t deal with much of this stuff, but the grimoire will feature wider cultural understandings of magic since I tend to write in the perspective of a witch writing down many generation of her family traveling around the world and learning magic, including Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Scandinavian and Celtic magic styles and creatures (which are all that I have notes on right now).
I also plan on writing some short essays in the perspective of an Indian woman being taught Imperialistic magic and learning about the rich history of her country’s own magic history and being so pissed that Imperialistic magic is so ingrained, being “right” kind of magic that she plans to open her own magic academy to teach proper Indian magic, but I need to do more research before that.
Did you know that Mammoth has its own page on TVTropes? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Blog/WeHuntedTheMammoth