I had an interesting conversation recently with a woman on Twitter who told me that my policy of letting MRAs and misogynists comment here, at least so long as they’re not abusive, was keeping her and others she knew from joining in the conversation; she wanted a place to discuss MRAs where she didn’t have to deal with them.
I know a lot of the regulars here like engaging with the trolls and MRAs who stop by, but I’d like to create some space here for commenters who want to discuss the issues in a Troll- and MRA-free zone.
So I thought I’d try starting a new kind of Open Thread: A No-Troll, No-MRA, No-Misogynist, No-Rape-Apologist, No-Douchebag Thread to discuss the issues I cover on the blog and anything related to that: Misogyny, MRAs, PUAs, MGTOW, the “Red Pill,” and so on. Enjoy!
Oh, and if a troll wanders in, or if someone starts being douchey, ignore them and send me a note. I’ll delete their comments and ban them. No warning, no moderation, straight ban.
I’m agreeing and nodding lots with hrovitnir’s reply here. We decriminalised parts of the sex worker trade here in New Zealand, which I believe is hugely important in making the occupation safer for all sex workers, not just women. IMO it should have gone further and legalised it.
None of us here are arguing that portrayals of females as sex workers has been consistently problematic in movies, or that there aren’t issues with the sex trade generally.
But katz is writing one book that has one main sex worker character (if I understand correctly) and she wishes to show that character as a positive one. To me, your argument is coming across as that katz shouldn’t write a sex worker character or, if she does, then the focus needs to be on the character/industry as deeply problematic.
I think that continuing to stigmatise people’s occupation decisions, when made with informed consent, is a bad idea, and does not represent the my view of feminism (which works to support all people in marginalised occupations, which includes and is not limited to sex work). People who suffer because of stereotyped views of their marginalised occupation are not harmed by having these types of narratives written.
You may not like sex work, that’s your view and you’re entitled to it. Don’t work in the industry. But don’t let your view in this area affect how you treat others (e.g. sex workers, people who write a story about one).
” You literally said that all full service sex workers (many sex workers do *not* like the word prostitute) are emotionally damaged. ”
No, I didn’t. And you’ve quoted me out of context.
Here is what I said – the context matters.
” I would like to say something about the “ideas for a movie about a sex worker” in the topic. Can I just say it really bothers me? Haven’t there been enough movies about female prostitutes already? Is there any role a woman can play besides that? How about a movie about the johns, for instance? As for the trope of a happy hooker that’s been done too – see: “The Happy Hooker,” from the 1970s. As for a failed actress becoming a sex worker – see “Girl Six” by Spike Lee. It’s all been done before!
And the idea that a prostitute shouldn’t have any hint of emotional damage from the work, duress, being trafficked or pimped, is just so damaging in my opinion. There are people trying to rescue sex workers and trafficked people, and this just puts a nice PR spin on it that there is no such thing as an unhappy sex worker. I’m cringing. ”
I was listing a series of things that happen to sex workers over time. I’ve yet to know about or hear about a sex worker who didn’t say one of those things about the work. What’s damaging refers to the paragraph BEFORE that, which you omitted. What’s damaging is to present an MRA’s wet dream or present women purely for objectification and titillation, without showing the human side of it. *That* was my concern.
It immediately became personal instead of discussing any of the serious issues that I was trying to address:
” Tea for Two,
Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from. Someone writing about a character who does sex work is not necessarily bent on writing tropes. Please show some respect and consideration for their points of view. There are sex workers who read and comment here. ”
Do you see how that is aimed squarely at me personally?
I didn’t say any of those things, either, but who cares about accuracy, right?
I also was not disrespectful. Caring how women are shown on film is not disrespect. Pointing out the emotional cost of sex work is not disrespect. Women are not robots. It’s a demanding, draining profession, I’m sure everyone can agree on that much?
Then this implies I was shaming them somehow:
” There is no current cultural image of ‘well-adjusted, socially and psychologically functional sex worker ‘. But then, our current culture doesn’t really support that as a concept. ”
I wasn’t saying there couldn’t be a psychologically functional person who was a sex worker. I was saying it takes a toll and has risks.
Also that just isn’t true and I have listed portrayals of “well adjusted” sex workers in film, including in the very post people have jumped on. (“The Happy Hooker” based on a book by Xaviera Hollander – similar to Belle de Jour’s more recent column.)
” Yep. I worked (very) briefly at a brothel as a barmaid and most of the women were most strongly affected by social stigma. One lovely young woman really *liked* her job but was very sad she could never be out to her family without being disowned. ”
This seems to agree with what I said but is actually in reply to the prior comment, as far as I can see. So it actually is trying to imply that I am stigmatising sex workers in some way, by pointing out the abundance of such roles already in film.
I’d never want someone to be stigmatised or disowned.
Anyway the finger wagging continues. I might as well be on reddit. I never said anything bad about sex workers but, to deny there are risks or costs that go with it, to me is denying reality. To purposely write a character that is sanitized is to me irresponsible.
” you are getting push back because there are a lot of feminists that support things like the Swedish Model (legalisation of sex work but not buying sex work) despite sex workers saying it has made their job more dangerous. ”
First, I thought we were all feminists here?
Second, I never mentioned The Swedish Model (haven’t even heard of that to be honest, although I know some countries and places decriminalize it, which by the way is different than it being illegal or legal.) I never mentioned any opinion on whether it should be illegal either.
” There are a *lot* of people who are very invested in all sex workers being abused, and it’s not supportive of trafficked women to conflate people who are trafficked with those forced by circumstance and those who feel OK about their job. ”
I’m not among those who are “very invested in all sex workers being abused” if that’s what you mean? Otherwise I don’t understand what you are implying there.
I was not conflating anyone with anyone, either. I was talking about women in film. I was talking about how roles are written. I was talking about the responsibility and opportunity of those things.
” I hate having this argument, because there are a lot of women and children who are trafficked and abused. But those people are not helped by sex work being illegal, nor by attitudes that all sex workers are damaged. ”
Again, I feel like someone’s preaching or lecturing me about things I never said or never even mentioned.
I didn’t talk about whether or not sex work should be illegal.
I didn’t say that all sex workers are damaged. I do think it carries emotional damage with it, including social stigma, distance from family or loved ones, difficulty finding a supportive partner, and then the vulnerability of dealing with strangers with one’s body in that type of intimate way.
I was trying to make a complex statement and it’s being misused and twisted here. I would not have expected that. Maybe I should’ve just posted a cat video.
But katz is writing one book that has one main sex worker character (if I understand correctly) and she wishes to show that character as a positive one. To me, your argument is coming across as that katz shouldn’t write a sex worker character or, if she does, then the focus needs to be on the character/industry as deeply problematic.
teafortwo, I’m sorry to have minimised how you felt. When I said that was no uproar, it was in comparison with vitriolic personal attacks I’ve seen here, as have people who were around when they happened. I shouldn’t have done that, even if I’d clarified that’s what I meant, because as you said, it mimimised what felt like hostility to you.
On the topic, I agree with hrovitnir’s comment above, and I’m slightly at a loss for why you’re now going to such lengths on the subject.
Wow. It just keeps coming.
” To me, your argument is coming across as that katz shouldn’t write a sex worker character or, if she does, then the focus needs to be on the character/industry as deeply problematic. ”
Is anyone actually thinking over what I am saying? Or just skimming it and responding with some lecture?
I have already said I didn’t realize it was a book and I have apologized for that as well.
So since she isn’t writing a film, I’m clearly not talking about katz’ work.
” I think that continuing to stigmatise people’s occupation decisions, when made with informed consent, is a bad idea, and does not represent the my view of feminism (which works to support all people in marginalised occupations, which includes and is not limited to sex work). People who suffer because of stereotyped views of their marginalised occupation are not harmed by having these types of narratives written. ”
I haven’t stigmatised ANYBODY. Good God. Talk about making me a straw person repeatedly in one topic.
It’s also feminist to try to help people exit a profession if they are damaged by it, which many outreach groups try to do. Those are often run or founded or staffed by former sex workers. But to read this topic one would think I am making all of this up out of thin air.
I am also not stereotyping anybody. That could only be true if what I was saying was untrue.
I never said all sex workers are the same. I’m being used as a platform for other people’s grandstanding at the moment, is how I feel.
There is also a TON of projection going on:
” You may not like sex work, that’s your view and you’re entitled to it. Don’t work in the industry. But don’t let your view in this area affect how you treat others (e.g. sex workers, people who write a story about one). ”
Once again – I never said anything bad about sex workers. I was trying to promote an idea of a rounded portrayal IF the role were done but also a frustrated plea that there are so many such characters already. And I was talking about film. I don’t know about the same status on book portrayals so I am not talking about katz’ work.
I’m really aghast that you would say “you may not like sex work” – I posted no opinion on it one way or the other. And then you go on to assume I”m going to treat someone badly because of this IMAGINARY bad opinion.
Really guys? This might as well be an MRA forum?
I didn’t mistreat katz either, btw. katz asked for our opinions. Unlike what has been given back – I made a criticism of past portrayals of women on film. NOT of sex workers or sex work. NOT of katz themselves.
What I got back (including yours) was a criticism of ME. Huge difference there! That’s why this feels like hostile blowback.
” On the topic, I agree with hrovitnir’s comment above, and I’m slightly at a loss for why you’re now going to such lengths on the subject. ”
LOL – because I’m being personally criticized and straw-personed, after being asked to contribute. That’s why – and because people continue to do so. I am replying to what is currently being said to me as well as (after having taken some time away, but it kept being talked about, and I kept being misinterpreted) what was said before.
You say you are sorry to have minimised how I felt but, then you said and say again after that, that you agree with others – who are also doing so.
You agree with a comment in which someone got things totally out of whack. Then you wonder why I feel a need to reply.
I’m really sorry if my responses came across as backlash; I really do appreciate you sharing your opinion! There were things about it I agreed with, things I disagreed with, and things I’m not sure about.
The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is whether a positive portrayal of a sex worker is inherently damaging to women who have negative experiences in the sex industry. I don’t think it does; for instance, there are abusive parents, but nobody thinks that all portrayals of parents should be abusive, or that portraying parents in a positive light delegitimizes the struggles of people who have negative relationships with their parents. It really only makes sense (to me) if there are no (or vanishingly few) sex workers who have had positive experiences, and as people have mentioned in this thread, there are.
I got the “all women in movies are prostitutes” sense from this thing you said:
And I’m sorry for misrepresenting you. That said, I really don’t think we’re going to get much out of talking about how many prostitutes there are in movies, for several reasons.
First, just listing movies that have prostitutes in them is statistically meaningless; one can come up with a list of three or four examples of nearly anything and it doesn’t prove it to be prevalent. I mean, I can list multiple examples of movies where people turn into bears and that doesn’t make that a really common thing. There are hundreds of thousands of movies, so unless someone wants to actually go through and do a rigorous statistical analysis (and I sure don’t have time for that), it’s just going to come down to you having the impression that there are a lot of sex workers and me having the impression that there aren’t so many.
Second, how many there are is water under the bridge from a writer’s perspective; it’s about what’s cliche rather than what’s common, and that’s qualitative, not quantitative. Some story elements are overdone the second time; others can be done hundreds of times and still feel fresh. And “it’s all been done” is meaningless because everything has been done. Plus, originality is about approach, rather than simple novelty. For instance, you can’t really compare a historical drama/GLBT romance novel set in 1920s Berlin with a 90s Spike Lee comedy film on the grounds that both feature sex workers who wanted to be in the performing arts.
If you want to be helpful to me, I do encourage you to chip in to my original question: What traits would you want to see in a sex worker character? And what traits would you want to see avoided?
” then the focus needs to be on the character/industry as deeply problematic ”
Again that’s exaggerating what I said, which in effect twists and misrepresents it also. I only said that it should not be written “without a hint” that there is a downside to it. Why is that such a bad thing? But there is a big difference between “leave a hint of that downside in” and “make sure the focus is on the character/industry being deeply problematic.” In fact they are not alike at all.
” The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is whether a positive portrayal of a sex worker is inherently damaging to women who have negative experiences in the sex industry. ”
Fair enough but just to make clear, that was not what I was saying, personally. I do think to sanitize something and not present a downside *is* potentially damaging, but, just in general, because how women are portrayed is, in my opinion, important – for everyone. (And I did specify women I think but, that’s because the character was female.)
” It really only makes sense (to me) if there are no (or vanishingly few) sex workers who have had positive experiences, and as people have mentioned in this thread, there are. ”
Do you mean on film? Because I listed more than a few.
” I really don’t think we’re going to get much out of talking about how many prostitutes there are in movies, for several reasons. ”
I’ve explained why I listed movies, though. Someone said there are not many sex workers in films, and someone else said there are no positive portrayals of same. So I listed some of each.
And like I said too, it was only a sampling.
” First, just listing movies that have prostitutes in them is statistically meaningless; one can come up with a list of three or four examples of nearly anything and it doesn’t prove it to be prevalent. ”
I didn’t say it did, though. I was trying to disprove the notion that there were none (in one case – “no positive portrayals – society won’t allow it”), or that there are hardly any sex workers on film. I never mentioned statistics. I don’t think it’s subjective, either. But I didn’t want to spend even more time trying to find all the articles/various writing and studies about women in film. However, doubtless not everyone will agree. It’s like trying to quantify how much is “many”. To you not many, is what you seem to be saying here:
” me having the impression that there aren’t so many. ”
” For instance, you can’t really compare a historical drama/GLBT romance novel set in 1920s Berlin with a 90s Spike Lee comedy film on the grounds that both feature sex workers who wanted to be in the performing arts. ”
And I don’t recall doing so (are you talking about Pandora’s Box btw?) but I do see your point. *My* point was – well I’ve said it already. It all comes down to whether we think there are enough or not. You don’t. I do. Fair enough. At least you see I was talking about the art. 😉
Thanks for that.
” If you want to be helpful to me, I do encourage you to chip in to my original question: What traits would you want to see in a sex worker character? And what traits would you want to see avoided? ”
I thought I had answered that already – and that’s what started all this. 😉
If I can make a request in return…try to see some of the films I listed. They are not just “meaningless statistics.” I included some because they seemed to be what you were after (such as Personal Services and Working Girls.)
Tea for Two,
Just so you are aware, the people in this thread are treating you extremely gently, far more gently than we even treat each other normally. (I don’t use half that many qualifiers in regular conversation.) But you still feel like you’re being attacked and like we are criticizing you as a person (I honestly don’t see anywhere anyone has said anything about you personally) and like we are deliberately misrepresenting you when I think we are all trying our best to understand what you are saying. So this discussion may continue to be frustrating to you.
And it’s probably going to get frustrating for us as well (not that I speak for anyone else); while you are very keen not to be misrepresented yourself and have jumped on a couple of people for things that were clearly just misunderstandings, you have also pulled out some interpretations of other people’s statements that I have a hard time deriving from the original text. And frankly I’m not too chuffed that you’ve turned my initial call for suggestions for my story into first a soapbox about the movie industry and then a long dissection about who is or isn’t misrepresenting you.
@lex-man
It’s funny that you ask if harrassment is a daily occurance, because at the times I was being harrassed the most I would judge how much I liked a suburb by how many times in 10 minutes I’d get yelled at by guys in cars. Where I lived (Newtown – which is/was a progressive/alternative kind of place) I wouldn’t get yelled at all, which is why I liked living there. I’m lucky that I didn’t find it intimidating or scarring. Maybe if I had been able to understand what they were saying rather than it being a blurt of sound as they went past it would have upset me more. As it is, I have a fairly sensitive/strong startle reflex, so someone yelling at me, no matter what they are saying, causes an unpleasant physiological reaction.
If you did, you’ll have to refresh my memory; I mean specific stuff that I could actually incorporate. For instance, would you want her to have been trafficked? Should she not like her job? Should she be depressed or have emotional problems? Etc.
No, I am talking about my story. I have been trying to talk about it this whole time.
katz, the way this has turned into the All About Tea for Two thread has sent me straight through “frustrated” and out the other side to “eyes glazing over”. So yeah, you speak for me.
” Tea for Two,
Just so you are aware, the people in this thread are treating you extremely gently, far more gently than we even treat each other normally. (I don’t use half that many qualifiers in regular conversation.) But you still feel like you’re being attacked and like we are criticizing you as a person (I honestly don’t see anywhere anyone has said anything about you personally) and like we are deliberately misrepresenting you when I think we are all trying our best to understand what you are saying. So this discussion may continue to be frustrating to you.
And it’s probably going to get frustrating for us as well (not that I speak for anyone else); while you are very keen not to be misrepresented yourself and have jumped on a couple of people for things that were clearly just misunderstandings, you have also pulled out some interpretations of other people’s statements that I have a hard time deriving from the original text. ”
Excuse me? You posted another lecture about me personally and then simultaneously expressed surprise why I’m saying that I feel I’m being personally attacked. Cognitive dissonance??
I thought I gave a full and reasoned reply to your posts to me. What I got back just now was solely about me as a person. And how I shouldn’t feel how I’m feeling.
I don’t know how you all normally talk to each other, but what I saw was me being lectured to and then people began laughing and talking about cats and knitting.
” And frankly I’m not too chuffed that you’ve turned my initial call for suggestions for my story into first a soapbox about the movie industry and then a long dissection about who is or isn’t misrepresenting you. ”
Except I didn’t – I answered your question. I got a finger wagged in my face by Lea, when I was saying nothing of the type.
Since you have asked me again for me to answer your original question, and then have said that instead of answering it to begin with I turned it “into a soapbox about the movie industry” (I apologized for not realizing, as I’ve said, for some reason, that it wasn’t a film but a book – guess that apology is already forgotten) and as for a “long dissection” etc., that’s just another pot shot at me. Yeah my posts became long but I’m trying to respond to things in specific so a good amount of that are quotes.
I also feel a bit ganged up on, here. I am surprised this is your post after I had thought you understood I was talking about the art and so forth.
But yeah, since you mention it – when someone says something like “sorry if you don’t like sex work” and then tells me “not to mistreat them” because of that – they ARE putting words in my mouth.
This is “extremely gentle” to you? I’ve been completely dismissed. The actual points have been ignored or twisted to some other thing. You want to talk about a soapbox? Try the very first response to me and those afterward. Simply because someone disagrees with my thought that a HINT of the downside should be included (and I was talking about IN THE WRITING, since that was your question), I’ve been made out as some sort of prude who looks down on sex workers, which isn’t at all the truth. I try to defend myself and get more of the same.
This is “gentle” in here? You are all normally worse, you say? This is supposed to be a safe space. I never said that = no disagreeing but I did expect not to be personally criticized for opinions I don’t even have.
And, again, I DID answer you to begin with. I expected a conversation about THAT – just not about ME.
” katz, the way this has turned into the All About Tea for Two thread has sent me straight through “frustrated” and out the other side to “eyes glazing over”. So yeah, you speak for me. ”
I’d be THRILLED If you would all stop attacking me. For real! try it and see. 🙂
” If you did, you’ll have to refresh my memory; I mean specific stuff that I could actually incorporate. For instance, would you want her to have been trafficked? Should she not like her job? Should she be depressed or have emotional problems? Etc. ”
Those are follow ups on what I already said, though. All you had to do was ask follow up questions. But after just ripping into me do you really expect me to believe you WANT my opinion?
But to reply to your questions: No. Up to you. What do you mean by ’emotional problems?’
All I said was that there should be “some hint of” the toll it takes. But that’s before I knew she was not the lead character and that it was a book. That changes things, books are not films.
” No, I am talking about my story. I have been trying to talk about it this whole time. ”
And as far as I could tell, you were talking about it…but to be really blunt I’m not here to talk about knitting or cats or to help someone else write their book. (For one thing I’m a writer too and I don’t believe in that. I’m even puzzled why a writer is asking for others to pitch in. The fun part is coming up with characters and their backstory, in my opinion. I mean do you really care if I think she should like ice cream or like to play Parcheesi? Are those the things you wanted to know? I have no clue what type of personality she should have because I don’t know your style, story, any of it. And even if I did, YOU should write it.) I wanted to talk about feminist issues. Maybe I am in the wrong place. Or maybe this is a clique that isn’t very welcoming. Or maybe some of both.
” Thread to discuss the issues I cover on the blog and anything related to that ”
I would like to ask a similar question to Lex-Man’s, but concerning racism. This is something I don’t get to ask in real life, really. I could, but I feel it possible people would be more open online.
Would people be willing to discuss personal experiences with being harassed or subjected to mistreatment due to racism? I am primarily asking about experiences with strangers or on the street or public places; but experiences in settings with people you know are, of course, also welcome.
Thank you in advance, to anyone willing to share.
Lecturing? That’s rich. If the style of conversation on this blog (and boy, do you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about people talking about things that interest them) doesn’t suit you, why are you bothering?
If you don’t get why a writer might want to talk about zir work and get ideas, why did you jump in with your *own* lecture about a character’s job? Just because it’s not how you write doesn’t make it some sort of writing sin. What the heck do you think writing and review sites exist for? What’s your problem with general conversation and people who’re friends asking each other advice? You seriously think that’s some sort of cheating for writers? Better do any research that involves asking people things about their jobs or lives, then.
You say you’re not here to talk about any of that stuff. Why are you here? To mock MRAs and only mock MRAs? Have you not noticed that we don’t have a Stop This Derail Instantly culture here? We talk about what suits us. If that doesn’t suit you, there are lots of blogs out there that doubtless will.
This is really becoming a WAAAHHH everyone’s persecuting me! thread. Has it struck you that several people interpreting your words the same way just might mean your communication wasn’t as clear as you think?
I can’t help on the racism; I’m white in a predominantly white country.
@katz
Have you done much research yet into what’s involved in being a sex worker? Is her career going to mostly be relevant in how it affects her relationship?
If you were wanting to do some (more) research, you could try the book mentioned in this article –> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/02/1028157839584.html It’s written by a woman who worked as a receptionist in a brothel about the women who worked there.
There is also a documentary about a woman who specialised in clients who were men with disabilities. She was also an advocate for sex workers, organised marches, travelled overseas to conferences and worked on getting laws changed. Her boyfriend lived in a different city and she couldn’t move there because the laws were different and she wouldn’t have been able to work there as safely, so it affected her relationship.
Tea for two: *shrug* I told you that you were going to continue to find this conversation frustrating.
NB: knitting is a feminist issue. It is an activity that is coded feminine which is mainstreaming in a positive way. Any time a gendered activity becomes less gendered or a ‘female’ activity becomes less looked down on is something to celebrate IMO.
Good point, Kim.
Kim: That sounds like a really interesting book! I will look for it.
(BTW, if anyone who isn’t Tea for Two wants me to shut up about the book already, please tell me. I’m keeping it confined to this thread, at least.)