Hey, Chicago readers: If you can make it up to Evanston this Monday, I’ll be giving a talk titled “Escape from the Planet of the Friend Zone,” exploring some of the mythology of this dreaded place. The talk, like my talk two years ago, will be part of Northwestern’s Annual Sex Week, sponsored by the College Feminists. (The talk itself is cosponsored by NU’s Men Against Rape and Sexual Assault.)
It’s at 7 PM in Kresge Hall 4365, which is on the Southern end of campus, near “the rock.” (Here’s a map.) If you’re taking the el, get off at the Foster stop and head east; then a little ways south when you hit campus. I’ll check about parking for non-students and provide details later.
The last time I gave a talk during Northwestern’s Sex Week, some MRAs got a little overexcited and started making up things about what they assumed my talk was about. (They were wrong.) So, just to make clear: I will not be teaching impressionable college students “how to have good sex,” except insofar as I will be talking about how sexist and self-defeating the concept of the Friend Zone is, which means it’s possible that some dude could attend the lecture and decide to stop whining about getting stuck in the Friend Zone, and thus improve his romantic and sexual prospects with that one simple step.
I haven’t finished writing the talk yet, so if any of you have any thoughts on the Friend Zone — or the closely related topic of the “nice guy” — let me know in the comments below.
I’m also curious about what role the concept of the Friend Zone plays in your everyday lives, so I’m going to spit out a bunch of questions that I may address in the talk and may ask the students as well. I’d be interested in your answers.
Have you ever been put in a situation that you or other people might describe as the Friend Zone? Whose fault do you think it was? Have you ever been accused of putting someone else in the Friend Zone? Did you find this insulting? Has someone else, through their own obsequiousness, put themselves in the Friend Zone with you?
Is the Friend Zone a male thing or are there a significant number of women and girls who find themselves friendzoned as well?
Does the notion of the Friend Zone grow out of male entitlement? Is it a fundamentally manipulative to try to pressure a woman into romance and sex? Or does it grow out of male awkwardness — the inherently difficult situation of shy or perhaps socially awkward guys who are still nonetheless expected to be the ones who pursue women rather than the other way around, as MRA types might argue?
When did the term start getting used? The concept is certainly not new, but I don’t think the term is that old. When did you all first start hearing it?
How can guys (or gals) get out of the Friend Zone?
Can a Friend Zone situation — by which I mean one in which one person is romantically interested and the other isn’t — be transformed into a real friendship, or will the different feelings/expectations of the two people make this impossible?
Alternately, can a Friend Zone situation turn into a real romance?
Is the Friend Zone really a useful concept at all? There are very few relationships — platonic, romantic or purely sexual — in which each partner feels the exact same way about the other. There are mismatches all the time. Shouldn’t we just learn to roll with it? Maybe the answer to the old When Harry Met Sally question — can a man be friends with a woman he’s attracted to? — is, “why the hell not?”
Seconding kitteh. Excellent inaugural comment.
From my own experience, men who bitterly complain about being left in the friend zone are actually in the asshole zone.
“Asshole zone” – now that’s a great term.
From one of the favorite pieces on “Nice Guys and the Friend Zone” I’ve come across:
http://feminspire.com/nice-guy-syndrome-and-the-friend-zone/
@grumpycatisagirl
The author of that article deserves a truckload of cookies for making that comeback.
Completely. 🙂
Have you ever been put in a situation that you or other people might describe as the Friend Zone? Whose fault do you think it was? Have you ever been accused of putting someone else in the Friend Zone? Did you find this insulting? Has someone else, through their own obsequiousness, put themselves in the Friend Zone with you?
I’m mostly asexual, so basically, EVERYONE is in my friend zone. My husband was an exception of such magnitude that it took me months to realize I was actually attracted to him. Obviously, he thought he was straight at the time, so I knew that he had no interest in me. I didn’t see this as some terrible thing he was doing to me; I felt I was doing something terrible to him by being attracted to him!
And that’s part of why I find the Friend Zone a really straight concept. Like, I’m a sexual minority, I kinda take it as a given that the vast majority of people I associate with do not want to bang me. So I feel MY attraction is a terrible inconvenience, not the other person’s LACK of attraction! (It was exacerbated that my now-husband knew EXACTLY what I was feeling at the time, we were in constant close quarters, and he was basically crashing on my couch.)
Obviously, my husband found that he was bi for me, and with much concerted effort, convinced me that no, he was truly attracted to me and not acting out of a feeling of pressure or obligation. So happy ending!
I’ve never understood the concept of the Friend Zone. It’s just completely alien to me, the idea that just because I associate with a guy, they should just KNOW I want to fuck them and be totally okay with it.
Can a Friend Zone situation — by which I mean one in which one person is romantically interested and the other isn’t — be transformed into a real friendship, or will the different feelings/expectations of the two people make this impossible?
My husband and I did manage to be friends, before we got together. No kidding, my attraction caused awkwardness, but we were both aware that it was MY responsibility to deal with those feelings in an adult manner. Which I feel I did — I understood that hubby wasn’t into me, probably never would be, but I enjoyed his company and felt that was enough. Nothing I did was with the intent of getting him to date me; it was because I honestly liked being around him and liked him being happy.
Alternately, can a Friend Zone situation turn into a real romance?
Obviously, ours did. Hubby came out bi. But our situation was really unusual, and I was prepared to have a platonic relationship with him for as long as it lasted. Also, he didn’t change because of ME, because I did some magic code of behaviors that opened his heart and his pants to me. He just did a lot of hard thinking about himself and his sexuality, and realized that perhaps he wasn’t as straight as he thought, and maybe his feelings for me weren’t as simple as friendship.
I would never, EVER advise someone to hope for a relationship change in my kind of situation. If you can’t keep your feelings straight, then you shouldn’t be around that person at all.
I will also note that I’ve had friends who’ve mentioned they’d be totally down with banging me, but they were up front about it, and also took my rejection with good grace and continued being my friend.
And more, because this is a topic that is important to me!
As a teenager, before I hacked off our tits, we had a fucking SWARM of Nice Guys who wouldn’t leave us alone, to the point that part of my system duties at one point consisted of getting rid of them. For some reason, some of my system members were just freakin’ catnip to a specific species of geeky white guy with self-esteem issues.
I know many geeky white guys with self-esteem issues who are not assholes. If they came up to me and were up front that they wanted in my pants, that was FINE. I could say, “No,” and that’d be that. The problem with the Nice Guy Brigade was that they would never actually say that, so I could never reject them without being rude. (“What? How could you even THINK I had such designs on you! Just because I make lots of sex jokes at you and hit on you in the D&D campaign and keep trying to read you poetry about how pretty girls never look at me doesn’t mean I was INTERESTED!”)
The other thing about the Nice Guy Brigade is that they WERE NOT NICE. If they were nice, they wouldn’t have been willing to constantly ignore our discomfort and passive-aggressively try and get into my pants without ever actually saying so. One of them later became my rapist. Another two told me that my rapes weren’t as bad their being a virgin, or that I had done something terrible to my rapist by reporting it to the police. (Note that I didn’t even press charges; this was PURELY reporting, because I knew he liked much younger girls and wanted a record in case he raped someone else.) Another one after that said that if I didn’t enjoy fucking him, I should just do it “prison-style.” When I looked confused, he elaborated, “close your eyes and pretend it’s not happening.”
These were NOT nice guys. These were narcissistic, self-absorbed manchildren who wanted to stick their penises into me but not fess up to it. These were guys who could not take rejection, or a basic ‘no.’ These were guys who did not understand that I did not want to bang them, not because they were geeky but because they were AWFUL PEOPLE.
So yeah, I have a grudge against this. And this is also why I tend to be a bit standoffish with that subset of geeky guy. At least the jockboy bullies just called me [gay slur] [transphobic slur] and shoved me into lockers. They were honest and upfront about their intentions to hurt me, and even THEY weren’t so low as to rape me or use it for self-pity points. My bullies had STANDARDS! The Nice Guy brigade went under them.
@ Kim. Thanks!
Fib…you have me wrong. I’m saying that people are all machines with buttons we can push. I’m also saying guilt tripping is terrible. Also I clarified that sex risk goes both ways. I’m not ignoring the other reasons, there simply isn’t enough space. A man is just as easily pushed…in fact in my experience it is even more so. I can push those buttons to do all sorts of stuff.
Studies, fib, my be generalized and they may not explain the whole of the population…but would you rather know something with some certainty or nothing with absolute certainty? Would you rather focus on the exceptions or the rule? I’m sorry you could not reply without resorting to name calling…mostly because I lost a bet. Maybe the reason what I say sounds reasonable is because it is. That makes you angry doesn’t it? Did you ever once consider that it is not a definition that makes something so, but the people who created it and their behavior. Absolutes are the beauty of nature…talk about being blind in an art museum. Definitions only create awareness of existing phenomena they do not create them. Actions my dear sir or madam are what create them…that and the all powerful fabric. We cannot speak things into existence.
And let us get one other thing straight, an explanation of a behavior is not a dismissal of morality associated with that behavior. I don’t ask questions because I fear being manipulated I ask questions to know the truth. I love how you call me names…it is a sure sign I’m pushing some buttons. I’m not ignorant of trends either. Trends, by the way, are many shades of black and white making shades of gray, but a trend can only arise where there is first a bilogical and/or physical imperitive. For example, we build houses for shelter, shelter we need to shield us from harsh conditions. If we were made of titanium shelter wouldn’t exactly serve the same purpose or be as crucial.
It isn’t just brizindine I read by the way…there is this cool thing called Google scholar and an even cooler thing called a database. It has these things called peer reviewed papers. Unfortunatley, no amount of labeling the research as sexist or misappropriated can change the truth of well performed study. Perhaps these labels come from a set of internal belief systems that are insecure. I have no such illusions about reality , my foundation is decent.
It must be maddening to be disproven so much. Isn’t scoffing at everything a bit tiring? I’m kind of proud of myself actually since no other poster has illicited this level of anger. You like the word innane and its variations a lot. Just so you are aware, “innane” is a subjective term. It is also true that any writing will be myopic to a degree. I could just as easily label your writing myopic…but I will not because I realize that as being confined to a physical plane a human cannot encompass all of everything in one writing least of all blog comment writing.
It also seems absurd the way you extrapolate things from my comments. I didn’t say femminists were stupid I said the comments on one post were stupid. And if I used the term good faith…I must have been hella drunk.
You also used a number of fallacies that I am not comfortable with which are, I believe, and in no order of significance, are: reductio ad absurdum, genetic fallacy, chronological fallacy, red herring and straw man…which seems like most of them actually…all rolled into one.
I also noticed that you tell me a lot of what isn’t true but not a lot of what is true in your opinion. If you want a messed up definition it’s that of explainism. If we cannot understand or explain things with objective language…then how are we as people to react? With irrational tantrums, lashing out at what they don’t or are unwilling to understand?
As far as aligning me with a rape agenda that is going to the extreme. Defemation of character is not cool. Rest assured, if someone’s getting raped its not gonna be by me…and are femminists really so self obsessed that they think anyone would even want to rape them? I mean talk about having a high opinion of oneself.
It’s also interesting how you define traditional gender roles as inferior and superior. If you are as you claim, struggling as women to find equality from a lower ring of percieved sexism…and you try to do it by assuming traditionally male roles then doesn’t that by definition mean that you view traditionally male roles as superior?…which they aren’t…but it seems to be the outcome of your reasoning. Furthermore, if you gauge yourselves by men then doesn’t that mean they are your paradigm? I thought in femminism relying on us men was frowned upon…without the existence of men there would be nothing for you to rage against or measure yourselves by. If I follow the inequality argument correctly…if not, correct me without insults or nonsensical labels.
We have not evolved as a race and the genetics are pretty clear. We haven’t come very far. The only reason our genetics haven’t degraded to extreme levels is because of the immortality enzyme we men keep in our nut sack. This enzyme negates the Heyflick limit and causes cells to replicate endlessly without degredation…in a perfect world that is.
This struggle you seem to have convinced yourself exists is as old as time. It isn’t new or evolved. We have just now reached a point where it can be more aptly expressed. If you want to be “superior” in your own eyes you do not start by saying I’m inferior. If you do this you will always be clawing your way up…because on the inside you see yourself as “inferior” and no amount of externalities will assure you otherwise. Start by saying I am “superior”.
I’m tedius??!!!?!! I’ve been introducing new stuff all day. I don’t even try to make it sound convoluted either. And I’ve done all of this while only being sort of sarcastic and at most mildly insulting. And I’m the illiterate one?!?! I read, process and formulate opinions based on facts and somehow I’m illiterate!?!?! That’s some bs man. Beard guy…I would call you a child too but you have a beard…also I’m not going to play the name game with you. Unless you really beg me. 🙂 How about all of you define you reality to me now and tell me what should be believed to save time and I will assimilate it into my consciousness…but only the parts I find useful…or maybe I won’t use it all…but knowing where you guys are coming from might help me figure out your hatred of lots of stuff.
O_o You mean polyester?
simon, you are an asshole. You are a manipulative, tedious, ignorant asshole.
PS: Posting huge walls of text in response to someone doesn’t really jive with being all unconcerned and non-chalant. Fibinachi must’ve hit a nerve, huh?
And now rape is a compliment on your awesomess. Jim, meet Simon. Simon, meet Jim. You guys should be friends.
Did Simon just start typing the word “wank” over and over halfway through that comment, or was that just my eyes?
RE: simon
a trend can only arise where there is first a bilogical and/or physical imperitive.
And yet, we gay people still exist.
are femminists really so self obsessed that they think anyone would even want to rape them? I mean talk about having a high opinion of oneself.
DUDE. What the everloving HELL. I don’t “think” anyone wants to rape me. I KNOW, because I was. That’s not a high opinion of myself, that’s FACT. Why would being aware of this be “having a high opinion of” myself?
Can someone call the banhammer down on this guy? That was just GROSS.
you try to do it by assuming traditionally male roles then doesn’t that by definition mean that you view traditionally male roles as superior?
No. You made a bunch of assumptions here. Allow me to break it down for you:
Just because a role is “traditionally male” doesn’t actually make it male. Especially when that varies hugely from society to society.
Just because a role gives social privileges doesn’t make it superior.
Adopting them as a survival mechanism, or because we just want to, doesn’t mean we think they’re superior.
The only reason our genetics haven’t degraded to extreme levels is because of the immortality enzyme we men keep in our nut sack. This enzyme negates the Heyflick limit and causes cells to replicate endlessly without degredation…in a perfect world that is.
Citation please? I have no idea what you’re blathering about.
Start by saying I am “superior”.
Nah, today is not Opposite Day.
I’m tedius??!!!?!!
Yes. You don’t even put proper paragraph breaks. I can fill my screen with what looks like one solid paragraph, because of your formatting skills. At least TRY, man.
I read, process and formulate opinions based on facts and somehow I’m illiterate!?!?!
Yeah, that reference to fearing rape being a sign of high self-esteem, that’s totally a fact. No emotions were involved at all. You were handed down this knowledge by the holy god of science itself.
How about all of you define you reality to me now and tell me what should be believed to save time
Easy. Rape is not a compliment, and fearing it is not a sign of “having a high opinion of oneself.” For that sentiment alone, you should be banned, and I am certain you will. Goodbye, Simon.
simon said “and are feminists really so self-obsessed they think anyone would even want to rape them? I mean talk about having a high opinion of oneself.”
So, simon, do you actually think that’s why rapists choose to rape?
Cells that replicate endlessly without degradation…are called “tumors.”
I don’t think I should have made my previous comment.
Don’t answer my question, simon. Just leave.
And, to all the non-simon commenters here: sorry if my first comment in this thread was upsetting. 🙁
Is there a biologist boobzer in the house? I want to say katz, but no, I think she’s a chemist… I really want to see if simon is pontificating as much hot air as I suspect he is.
Simon you fucknut, rape is not about uncontrolled sexual desire. It is a violent and predatory act. Fuck off.
I won’t bother reading the rest of that wall, but based on what the rest of you have quoted, sounds like someone’s stepped over into ban-worthy.
I am always kinda astounded how people like simon seem to think that rape is something we fear just out of paranoia or something. It’s like, uh, no. Actually, it happens a lot.
I swear, people like this would probably think my family was a fictional invention, seeing the multi-generational raping and incest that was going on in it. Believe me, I only WISH that I made that up. The world would be such a more pleasant place.
Ironic sentence of the day.
… do people think that (at least in the US), a sexual assault happening every two minutes is nothing or something? What the flying fuck?
Seconding. I’ve emailed the Dark Lord.