Hey, Chicago readers: If you can make it up to Evanston this Monday, I’ll be giving a talk titled “Escape from the Planet of the Friend Zone,” exploring some of the mythology of this dreaded place. The talk, like my talk two years ago, will be part of Northwestern’s Annual Sex Week, sponsored by the College Feminists. (The talk itself is cosponsored by NU’s Men Against Rape and Sexual Assault.)
It’s at 7 PM in Kresge Hall 4365, which is on the Southern end of campus, near “the rock.” (Here’s a map.) If you’re taking the el, get off at the Foster stop and head east; then a little ways south when you hit campus. I’ll check about parking for non-students and provide details later.
The last time I gave a talk during Northwestern’s Sex Week, some MRAs got a little overexcited and started making up things about what they assumed my talk was about. (They were wrong.) So, just to make clear: I will not be teaching impressionable college students “how to have good sex,” except insofar as I will be talking about how sexist and self-defeating the concept of the Friend Zone is, which means it’s possible that some dude could attend the lecture and decide to stop whining about getting stuck in the Friend Zone, and thus improve his romantic and sexual prospects with that one simple step.
I haven’t finished writing the talk yet, so if any of you have any thoughts on the Friend Zone — or the closely related topic of the “nice guy” — let me know in the comments below.
I’m also curious about what role the concept of the Friend Zone plays in your everyday lives, so I’m going to spit out a bunch of questions that I may address in the talk and may ask the students as well. I’d be interested in your answers.
Have you ever been put in a situation that you or other people might describe as the Friend Zone? Whose fault do you think it was? Have you ever been accused of putting someone else in the Friend Zone? Did you find this insulting? Has someone else, through their own obsequiousness, put themselves in the Friend Zone with you?
Is the Friend Zone a male thing or are there a significant number of women and girls who find themselves friendzoned as well?
Does the notion of the Friend Zone grow out of male entitlement? Is it a fundamentally manipulative to try to pressure a woman into romance and sex? Or does it grow out of male awkwardness — the inherently difficult situation of shy or perhaps socially awkward guys who are still nonetheless expected to be the ones who pursue women rather than the other way around, as MRA types might argue?
When did the term start getting used? The concept is certainly not new, but I don’t think the term is that old. When did you all first start hearing it?
How can guys (or gals) get out of the Friend Zone?
Can a Friend Zone situation — by which I mean one in which one person is romantically interested and the other isn’t — be transformed into a real friendship, or will the different feelings/expectations of the two people make this impossible?
Alternately, can a Friend Zone situation turn into a real romance?
Is the Friend Zone really a useful concept at all? There are very few relationships — platonic, romantic or purely sexual — in which each partner feels the exact same way about the other. There are mismatches all the time. Shouldn’t we just learn to roll with it? Maybe the answer to the old When Harry Met Sally question — can a man be friends with a woman he’s attracted to? — is, “why the hell not?”
Simon, we aren’t talking about intelligence level or anything else other than ability to communicate when we complain about your writing style. That you, in theory, are trying to communicate with us is what makes writing style important. That you seem to be making no effort to write clearly leads us to believe that you, in actuality, have no desire to communicate with us and just enjoy mansplaining at us.
That boring misogynist arseholes might be upset by it, is not something that I consider when I choose not to make horrible generalisations about men. It’s that sweeping generalisations are worthless and that there are plenty of good men I know who I don’t want to insult.
Yes, because we’re so threatened by someone who thinks the US is the world.
Oh, people actually read that wall of blah?
You know what is really uncomfortable making? When guys have crushes on you and you don’t return it and they keep doing things for you?
I have a boyfriend, but another man who does the same martial art as us has a big crush on me and keeps doing things like carrying my bags for me without my asking, randomly buying me sweets after I had mentioned that such and such a kind were my favourite and other things like that.
And he is a very sweet guy and I like him a lot but a) I have a boyfriend and b) even if I wasn’t with my boyfriend I wouldn’t want to date him because I am not attracted to him and he is several years younger than me and my junior within the Dojo so power inbalances are a thing as well.
And technically I am benefiting from this because suddenly three bags of jelly babies and stuff like that but I don’t want him to be buying me stuff and it makes me uncomfortable especially as he doesn’t need to do stuff for me to make me want to be his friend.
And if he doesn’t get over this soon I’m going to have to take him aside and tell him that he doesn’t need to do things for me and I like him as a person regardless and hope that he gets the message.
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it Jim.
Cassandra – skimmed it, that bit of idiocy about the Ivy League stuck out. The rest, zzzzzzzzzz.
@Simon
And Simon confirms what we all already knew – he is crapping on this thread.
Yeh, being in STEM doesn’t mean that you get to not check your grammar, imply you’re far too important to proof read and then try and shame us for pointing out your errors.
I’ve a PhD in Mathematical Logic, sweetie. And the only time I pull that out of my pocket and waive it around on here is when some arrogant ass-wipe atarts behaving like you. Because that PhD (and my degree in Mathematics from Oxford – yes, that Oxford) don’t make me superior to anyone. They make me over educated and give me the right to tell you that you are an utter failure at humanity101 with all the creativity of a paperclip.
@simon
No. I cannot say this enough. No, no, no ,no ,no!
You are a manipulative abuser who takes advantage of other people. You think that you are being super extra special because you actually admit to this, openly.
Here’s a clue. Not everyone is like you. A whole hell of a lot of us (male, female, genderqueer or genderfluid) actually have ethics and morals and empathy with the rest of the human race and do not take advantage of other people.
Taking advantage of people and admitting it? You are still a shitty person. Try joining the human race instead of trying to justify your shittiness by saying “Everyone else does it”. Clue: they don’t.
You know what is really uncomfortable making? When guys have crushes on you and you don’t return it and they keep doing things for you?
Too right. Because by doing this, they are forcing you into a form of debt that you have no way of repaying. In The Gift of Fear it talks about how this is used by predators. even when it’s innocently done, it is still putting you in a very awkward position.
Sorry you’re experiencing this, historophilia.
Ooops, blockquote fail ^
*mutters: all hail, the blcokquote monster!
Also from that Nature article (which I linked incorrectly, it is at: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/YoungBalabanBrizendine.pdf)
The New York Times, at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/10/books/review/Henig.t.html?_r=2&, had this to say:
Here’s a bit from Langaugehat, on the 2006 Becky Award (Given to that book for “grossly misleading linguistic facts”)
—————
So:
Yes, people did.
No, there is no dismissal.
—————
I love science. I love physics. I love biology. I don’t work in those fields, and my education is a harrowing tale of self-taken online courses and odd schools, but I love reading about the wonders of the universe, and I firmly do believe that empiricism and careful work can reveal great, big, interesting things about the world we all live in.
But I don’t like people using those grand ideals to cloak their stuff in badly made up almost-true facts than are really just rewording old tired cliches about men and women.
Awesome that you have a physics degree though, and good luck with working on piercing “a wonderful illusion”. But try to be a little less “Eh, everyone is cruel and out to get you!” about it.
titianblue:
Seconding!
simon: Only predatory, manipulative assholes take advantage of other people.
And only arrogant, stupid assholes proclaim their theories to be scientifically accurate without actually providing any kind of evidence to back them up other than personal anecdotes and discredited pop-science.
You’ve been told about the ableism. Only a complete asshole keeps using slurs when asked not to.
LOL at “as a college student I am far too important to proofread my comments”.
Taking advantage of humans (blatantly or covertly) is only admirable in the Furrinati. Because overlords. And CUTE.
That’s not taking advantage, Kittehs, that’s just claiming your natural rights. 😉
Yep, and we’re going to think you an arrogant piss-pot for doing that.
I made the mistake of going back and reading Simon’s wank-fest again. I missed the finer points of his arrogant screed. Apparently, we should all be ok with sexism and racism (and, I guess, ableism) because he’s a Real Man. And Real Men are above worrying about petty things like boigotry.
I think we’re supposed to be swept away with the impressive brilliance and superior masculinity of Simon. Rather than puking with disgust.
You knwo that proof-reading you’re too busy to do, Simon? Maybe if you reread your comments before posting them, you might see how nauseating you are and stop waving your arse around in public.
Given that the one thing that jumped out at me was that he was commenting from the bathroom on his phone I just hope that nobody has to share lab equipment with him.
@cassandrakiity, or borrows his phone. Euw.
Truth!
If I was going to do the Real Man shit, my definition would be a man who isn’t racist, sexist or any other sort of bigot. Total opposite of all the MRAs, PUAs, MGTOW and so on and so forth.
Total opposite of little Simon Sez, in other words.
More interesting than any of Simon’s bog*-standard screeds: True Facts about the Octopus**!
http://youtu.be/st8-EY71K84
*especially apt if you use bog in the slang sense.
**with creature who we are told is dumb as hell, but is still not as dumb as Simon.
Random food thing that freaks me out – live octopus sushi. Not for the reasons you probably think, more because I’ve heard that if you’re not careful how you eat it the little suction cups attach firmly to the inside of your cheek and won’t let go.
I’ve never heard of live octopus sushi and I don’t want to know any more – because I don’t need to end the day on RAGE.
Auggz, it contains the implication that everyone else is also a jerk but, unlike the speaker, is also a dishonest jerk. so, if you are arguing with someone who says that, they are basically calling you a lying jerk.
I never thought to see so clear a case of “everyone else is as awful as me, they’re just dishonest with it” as Simon. I have struggled to truly believe (rather than just accept, intellectually) the “you know who thinks all men are rapists? Rapists do”. Thank you, Simon, for giving me the gift of belief.
The alternative to proof reading Simon, is to learn how to write decently the first time. Commenting: really not that hard.
Coming in late, but oh well.
That word salad is just one giant fail in trying to appear sophisticated. But it did make me chuckle.
So you want to make this a point of statistics? Well, it would be a provable hypothesis, certainly. Unfortunately, your personal anecdotes don’t suffice as proof. And I really don’t think anybody has done any serious sociological studies on this so far, comparing the genders in that regard. So there is just nothing at all backing up your little hypothesis – and I’m generous in calling it that. In addition, even IF what you say were true, it would be meaningless. So, in this scenario, there is a statistical difference between men and women. So what? That says absolutely nothing about individual men or women. So why bother with that potential (and in reality unproven) statistical difference at all?
And we will continue to think you’re a gaping asshole. Isn’t life grand?
Simon typing his teal deers on the toilet is so perfect.
QFT
All the truth.
I don’t do that. My husband doesn’t do that – despite the alarming fact that he’s got a science degree and a few others – so Simon’s wrong about male people with STEM qualifications. We don’t know anyone who does that, not those who do have science qualifications nor those who don’t.
Anyone who finds that all the people around them are trying to take advantage of them should find themselves some new friends. (Or rethink their own life and attitudes. The only people I have known who thought that about other people were themselves untrustworthy and not very nice in far too many respects.)