Hey, Chicago readers: If you can make it up to Evanston this Monday, I’ll be giving a talk titled “Escape from the Planet of the Friend Zone,” exploring some of the mythology of this dreaded place. The talk, like my talk two years ago, will be part of Northwestern’s Annual Sex Week, sponsored by the College Feminists. (The talk itself is cosponsored by NU’s Men Against Rape and Sexual Assault.)
It’s at 7 PM in Kresge Hall 4365, which is on the Southern end of campus, near “the rock.” (Here’s a map.) If you’re taking the el, get off at the Foster stop and head east; then a little ways south when you hit campus. I’ll check about parking for non-students and provide details later.
The last time I gave a talk during Northwestern’s Sex Week, some MRAs got a little overexcited and started making up things about what they assumed my talk was about. (They were wrong.) So, just to make clear: I will not be teaching impressionable college students “how to have good sex,” except insofar as I will be talking about how sexist and self-defeating the concept of the Friend Zone is, which means it’s possible that some dude could attend the lecture and decide to stop whining about getting stuck in the Friend Zone, and thus improve his romantic and sexual prospects with that one simple step.
I haven’t finished writing the talk yet, so if any of you have any thoughts on the Friend Zone — or the closely related topic of the “nice guy” — let me know in the comments below.
I’m also curious about what role the concept of the Friend Zone plays in your everyday lives, so I’m going to spit out a bunch of questions that I may address in the talk and may ask the students as well. I’d be interested in your answers.
Have you ever been put in a situation that you or other people might describe as the Friend Zone? Whose fault do you think it was? Have you ever been accused of putting someone else in the Friend Zone? Did you find this insulting? Has someone else, through their own obsequiousness, put themselves in the Friend Zone with you?
Is the Friend Zone a male thing or are there a significant number of women and girls who find themselves friendzoned as well?
Does the notion of the Friend Zone grow out of male entitlement? Is it a fundamentally manipulative to try to pressure a woman into romance and sex? Or does it grow out of male awkwardness — the inherently difficult situation of shy or perhaps socially awkward guys who are still nonetheless expected to be the ones who pursue women rather than the other way around, as MRA types might argue?
When did the term start getting used? The concept is certainly not new, but I don’t think the term is that old. When did you all first start hearing it?
How can guys (or gals) get out of the Friend Zone?
Can a Friend Zone situation — by which I mean one in which one person is romantically interested and the other isn’t — be transformed into a real friendship, or will the different feelings/expectations of the two people make this impossible?
Alternately, can a Friend Zone situation turn into a real romance?
Is the Friend Zone really a useful concept at all? There are very few relationships — platonic, romantic or purely sexual — in which each partner feels the exact same way about the other. There are mismatches all the time. Shouldn’t we just learn to roll with it? Maybe the answer to the old When Harry Met Sally question — can a man be friends with a woman he’s attracted to? — is, “why the hell not?”
No, no, no! Fibi, I hate to say this, but you answered this wrong.
It should have been…
We… love it… for… its… grammatical… utility.
(Shatnerian utility)
@simon
I weep for your teachers.
I don’t do that. My husband doesn’t do that – despite the alarming fact that he’s got a science degree and a few others – so Simon’s wrong about male people with STEM qualifications. We don’t know anyone who does that, not those who do have science qualifications nor those who don’t.
In addition, even if Simon were right it wouldn’t change a thing. It’s the classical is-ought-fallacy: Just because something is a certain way doesn’t mean it ought to be that way. Just because something is, doesn’t mean it’s good. If it’s a bad thing it should be called out, condemned and tried to be fixed wherever it is encountered!
Back in the 19th century, Simon would most likely have been pro-slavery, on the argument of “Well, that’s the way the world is”…
Shouldn’t a physics major be aware that an anecdote =/= data?
I was just a lowly psychology major and I know that!
I’m pretty sure there’s a joke here about not needing data for physics. But it’s a low blow and a cheap shot, and I actually like a lot of people who are into physics, so I won’t make the joke.
Even though, with Simon RIGHT THERE, it would be extra hilarious.
I want to call them up and apologize for him. And you just know he’s one of those guys who’s constantly turning in the worst BS he can crap out in his required humanities classes because he thinks he’s soooo superior.
Until further evidence is presented, I’m also going to assume he’s a second-semester freshman who thinks he’s a hot shot because he’s passing introductory physics but is going to hit the quantum wall and curl up in despair.
Parallax is one thing, but does he have the brains for branes? 😀
Thank you titianblue 🙂
He’s not freaking me out much yet, I sense well meaning clue-lessness rather than manipulative grossness and we are on our Easter break from uni right now so hopefully a break of five weeks will help him snap out of it.
But if he’s still going in two weeks when we are back on campus I’ll have a quick chat with him.
But you’re right, I’ve read the Gift of Fear and the “forced teaming” and forcing gifts on someone so they owe you whether they like it or not is a technique of abusers and generally nefarious persons. And it puts the victim in a really tricky position because how do you object to someone doing nice things for you and buying you things? You look mean and if you complain the abuser will have plenty of people willing to castigate you for being mean to the poor guy who is so nice to you! When the victim knows they are being manipulated and coerced into this and are generally feeling uncomfortable.
And even if someone doesn’t have any darker motives, it is still ok to feel uncomfortable with someone doing you favours and buying you things unasked. That’s the kind of thing I am really only comfortable with family, partners and very, very close friends doing. For people who are only casual friends, and especially when I technically have authority over them it feels weird.
When I was in college, a physics major acquaintance of mine mocked the easiness of my studies as an English major. He graduated and then decided to come back to pursue a second bachelor’s in English. But he flunked all of his classes and dropped out.
I am trying very hard to respond to what I see as a willingness to accept that “friendzoning” is a bullshit construct used by men to take away women’s sexual agency and to say that women owe men sex when they are nice enough to them for long enough.
I am going to take one more shot at saying this.
Some women take advantage of men for meals, money, gifts, favors, etc. and do it knowingly. The women who do this have no intention of becoming romantically involved in any sense but continue to accept gifts and favours and the ego rub. I know them., I’ve met them. I’ve felt pretty shitty after hanging out with them. They continue to present the possibility of the idea of a relationship long after they have decided not to pursue one. Not all women do this. I do not know how anyone in these scenarios acted as if these women owed them anything more than honest intentions.
I have observed this behaviour in some women and no men. Other people I know have to. Women and Men. I think that this behaviour is therefore more likely common in women than men. It is not proven, but the anti-male position on friend-zoning is not either.
If this is not relevant to the discussion then I am sorry. I am sure whatever generalization I make from this can be shredded by anyone because it has not been measured, and is still only anecdotal. But I am also sure no matter how plain even the smallest inductive step anyone who shares my experience takes it will meet far more criticism than the other positions.
Any attempts at sophistication have purely been an effort to move some nugget of truth forward, and past whatever personal prejudices I am sure to cloud it with. I hope everyone else here does the same.
I have been the first to admit that there are many things competing for the title of friend zoning. But it is impossible to me, given my experience, that friend zoning can only be about the versions I am not talking about.
That is why I contributed to this thread asking what friend zoning was.
Yes I know that certain kinds of people in certain kind of places may be likely to do certain kinds of things than others. Yes I know that I should avoid these people.
Thank you for the charitable readings.
I really need to slow down on the blockquotes.
NewJim: I appreciate your rephrasing. What you are saying now sounds far more reasonable.
For the purposes of discussion, I’ll concede that more women you meet behave in this way than men do. Do you think the reason is biological or cultural? Have you thought of anything else these sting-alongers have in common besides being women?
If a male friend of yours told you he was being friendzoned, and having no knowledge of the woman or her ethics, would you first assume she was using him for her own ends? Would you consider the possibility that she honestly thought they were friends?
So, wait, the position that “women are not more likely than men to knowingly and maliciously take advantage of and sexually manipulate people for their own nefarious purposes” is somehow “anti-male.”
NewJim: No. So much fail. You cannot generalize a non-random, non-representative, incredibly small sample to the entire population. Jut because you happen to know women who “friend-zone” men for fun and profit, does not mean that women are more likely to “friend-zone.”
And how exactly is saying that women are not more likely than men to “friend-zone” is “anti-male?”
Hey, someone’s got to keep the monster fed.
You just won’t let it go, will you Jim? Just because you have not observed men using the prospect of love to manipulate women out of money, doesn’t mean it never happens. I found this forum for women have been preyed on by male con artists just for you. http://wac-m.com/
There are predators of all genders. You didn’t notice the manipulative because you’re (I presume, sorry if I’m wrong) a straight man and therefore would not be a great target. You really need to step back and realize how full of confirmation bias your thinking is. Stop claiming that only women use love and sex to manipulate others and then disingenuously qualifying it by saying it’s “only anecdotal.”
Yeah, there’s also those men who pretend to be widowers to try to gain women’s sympathies. I get unsolicited FB friend requests like that from time to time.
That forum is down for maintenance. 🙁
But coincidently, Dr Phil is on talking to a woman who is in an online relationship with someone who, it seems, is a scammer. He mentions
http://www.youreittoday.com/scammers.php
Well, he mentioned pigbusters.net, but it redirects to that page.
Plus we all know there are no such things as the “I’m divorced/getting a divorce/separated/leaving my wife/I’ll leave her for you/you’re the ONE” men. No, none of those, not no way, not now how.
So we’ve officially reached the point where not being overtly misogynist is being anti-male. Yep, Jim, we sure ought to be taking you more seriously.
The “friend zone” describes a situation in which 2 people are officially friends, although one of them would like to be more. However, the person who wants a sexual/romantic relationship does not actually tell the other person their feelings. Instead under the guise of being friends they give the other person “gifts, favors, ego rubs,” etc. in the hopes that that person will feel obligated to return the favors with sex/a relationship. It is ridiculous to say they want “honest intentions” because they actively deny the other person the opportunity to show them. If the aggressor in these situations showed their honest intentions they would have their answer immediately. I think it is entirely possible, probable even, that most women suspect it when men who are pretending to be their friends are actually hoping to pressure them into sex/relationships, but we can only be expected to respond to what people actually say to us. It is not socially acceptable to say to someone who has not actually asked you out “I have absolutely no interest in persuing a relationship with you.” Men who complain about friend zoning know this, and that is why they use passive aggressive techniques instead of simply asking women out. If a woman’s position toward a man has always been “we are friends,” and as it turns out she really, truly only wanted to be friends, she cannot be accused stringing him along. If he offered favors, compliments, etc as if they were gestures of friendship and she accepted them in that spirit, she cannot be accused of deceiving him, even if she did suspect his ulterior motives. tl;dr In addition to not proving anything about women in general, the women Newjim describes did absolutely nothing wrong.
Nicely put, Jo Cool. Have you commented before? If not, have a Welcome Package. 🙂
Thanks Kittehserf! I’m a regular reader and occasional lurker, that was my first comment. I usually just have to laugh at the trolls on here but I’ll admit this one touched a nerve. I am actually considering looking for a new apartment to get away from a guy who is pulling this passive aggressive crap, and here comes Mr. Niceguy McMansplainer to tell us all how women (not all women, of course, but some) just love to take advantage of men.