Hey, hostile visitors! Do you have an opinion about, for example, Mary Koss’ rape research? Do you want to discuss it even though the topic has not actually come up by itself in any of the threads and none of my recent posts really have much to do with the specifics of anyone’s rape research? Well, from now on you can discuss it here with anyone who wishes to follow you to this thread.
Added bonus: If you continue to try to discuss it in other threads you’ll be banned!
This also applies to future derailers riding hobbyhorses of their own having nothing to do with Koss.
Happy discussing!
Note: If you wish to discuss the topics at hand, you know, topics directly related to my posts and/or to what other people are discussing and that aren’t, you know, personal hobbyhorses of yours that involve long screeds and various things that you’ve probably already cut and pasted into the comments sections of various other websites until you were banned from them for endless derailing and general asswipery, feel free to remain in the original threads.
@Bob
But there’s a reason they eat meat when they can get it – it’s because meat is an important source of nutrition, and some people depend on it to survive. Even in more developed countries. You also must understand that most cuisines around the world are full of meat. Just look at Pakistani cuisine.
Assuming that you’re not a moral relativist, I think you would likely contend that cultural practice is no excuse for eating meat (from the vegetarian perspective). But when meat is so deeply integrated into a particular cuisine, alternatives to meat are inevitably less accessible.
I know this from experience. When I went to Nagoya, Japan several years ago, my father didn’t allow me to eat un-Islamically slaughtered meat (unless it was fish). I ended up resorting to eating things like scones at Starbucks. I didn’t eat fish, sushi, etc. because I was picky at the time.
The reason I had so little to choose from is that meat was almost everywhere I looked. Could I have survived on nothing scones and the like for a period longer than 2 days (the amount of time I spent there)? Sure. But it certainly wouldn’t be healthy. And that’s just one example of culture making vegetarianism too unfeasible to espouse.
I sympathize with vegetarianism as an ethical stance, but I also think that there are a lot of problems with the typical approach to vegetarianism I see. Meat is only a status food for some people – for many others it’s practically irreplaceable unless there’s a revolutionary change in the culture.
That’s what I think, too. I really don’t feel like it’s my business what other people eat. If someone is a vegan, good for them. If someone eats bacon cheeseburgers for breakfast every day, more power to them.
I am lucky enough to live in a city with grocery stores. I’m extremely lucky that Aldi’s is in town, because they are way cheaper than Walmart, even if you ad match and use coupons. I make my grocery choices based on what’s cheapest, but I would still consider myself a foodie because I like good food. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, either, because eating is one of life’s pleasures.
Another thing about being vegan is that it’s not an option for a lot of kids. The school breakfast and lunch menu usually have animal based food, like sausage, grilled cheese, cheese pizza, hot dogs, chicken nuggets, and chocolate milk. So for me and a lot of other parents, switching our kids to a vegan diet would mean losing two free meals a day, which puts an undue strain on family budgets.
And by “sympathize,” I mean “I can see why people espouse it.” I’m not actually vegetarian.
Even if I wanted to be vegetarian or vegan, I can’t. Being this anemic, I need the red meat. Beans are out because I can’t eat them without wanting to gag.
You are really getting mileage out of those sun-dried tomatoes.
@hellkell,
OK, I’m sorry, but I don’t understand why. Why, specifically, is it mansplaining, self-righteous and condescending for me to say that I think people need good reasons to engage in behaviors that are demonstrably destructive?
@Yeah, it’s a thing. Any time I’m asked about my veganism, it’s one of the go-to objections thrown out by more informed diners. It’s sort of a variation on the “trapped on a deserted island” or “starving people in Africa” objections.
@katz: Yeah, it’s a thing. Any time I’m asked about my veganism, it’s one of the go-to objections thrown out by more informed diners. It’s sort of a variation on the “trapped on a deserted island” or “starving people in Africa” objections.
This is true, Aaliyah.
I guess my point is that when it’s not a matter of survival, it becomes a matter of choice. And choices stem, at least in part, from beliefs. And beliefs are subject to moral and ethical evaluation, even if they are old and deeply ingrained.
I don’t think something being cultural or traditional is, in itself, a sufficient ethical defense, although it might present a legitimate practical obstacle. Too many awful things have been defended on that basis to really make it an acceptable answer for me.
Yeah, animal products can be essential even in places that aren’t “food deserts.” I mean, in addition your example, there’s also the fact that a lot of essential medicine probably uses animal products. And getting rid of it just because of animal products would be disastrous.
Yes, but it seems that you’re making a false dichotomy here. Technically people can survive without meat, but some people need meat to be healthy even if they won’t starve to death by eating meat. Look at hellkell’s example. I hope you can see the nuance here.
No disagreement here. I just think that you may be underestimating the force of culture here as it definitely can make being vegetarian much more difficult if not impossible.
Bob, I think the issue here is how many different things you could mean when you say “people need good reasons.”
If you just mean “people should think about the ethical implications of their actions,” then sure, I don’t think too many people will disagree with that. But it’s noticeable that you’re only saying that about veganism, as if that were the only action with moral implications. You don’t seem to be concerned at all about the conditions of workers that produce food, for instance (that I’ve seen).
But that’s not what it sounds like you’re saying. It sounds much more like you’re saying “what I do is right and people had better have a really good reason for not all following the clearly correct course of action that I’m following.” Which is total bullshit. Aside from being far too reminiscent of “no birth control unless you can prove you have a medical condition” and that sort of thing, you’re defining an ideal lifestyle around one thing that you do and then condemning everyone who makes different choices. That’s the exact archetype of the asshole vegan.
RE: katz
You are really getting mileage out of those sun-dried tomatoes.
No joking. I went without them for a good while, which means I’m finding a way to integrate them into EVERYTHING. Couscous for dinner? Add sun-dried tomatoes! Scrambled eggs? Sun-dried tomatoes! Macaroni and cheese? SUN-DRIED TOMATOOOOOOOES!
They are quite the versatile foodstuff.
Case in point: Virtually all vaccines are grown in eggs.
But you shouldn’t have to come up with reasons why eating meat is necessary in one case or another; I reject the premise that Bob gets to adjudicate the morality of my actions. I’ll eat meat if I want to because I don’t think there is any special moral problem with doing so.
Katz: WORD.
Even as a long-time vegetarian, I agree with Katz’s breakdown about how you phrased things, Bob.
I hope that doesn’t make you go away, because it’s pretty cool to have another paleobiologist around.
Have you made an egg, cheese, spinach, and sun-dried tomato omelet yet?
Mmmmm, I gotta get some sun-dried tomatoes. This thread is making me hungry.
(Since it sounds like I just sit around gnawing on a giant haunch of venison all the time, I’d like to mention that I try to eat a minimal amount of meat, and it’s for the same reasons as everyone else: Ecological concerns, animal-welfare concerns, etc.)
Katz: same here. I was trying to limit my meat, especially red, intake. Life happens.
Well, um, I guess we’ll just agree to disagree?
The thing is, it’s not like veggies or w/e are cruelty free, either.
yes. My opinions, too, but phrased more coherently
RE: katz
Have you made an egg, cheese, spinach, and sun-dried tomato omelet yet?
…Well, now I know what I’m having for dinner! 😀
True. But I think you have have misunderstood me; I’m not literally saying that we should only eat meat when we have no other feasible alternative. (After all, I myself eat meat.) I’m just saying that, from a vegetarian perspective, one has to consider the barriers to practicing vegetarianism and can’t simply assume that it’s easy for everyone. My objections are based on a vegetarian perspective and directed at Bob’s views from a vegetarian perspective.
You could also just say that I’m only arguing for the sake of arguing. =P
LBT — glad you’re doing well, and getting treated to your husband’s cooking skillz by the sounds of it (and Sneak’s…sounds a little scary but I’m wary of kids cooking, sounds like ze used zir superhero powers to avoid setting the oven on fire though)
RE: Argenti
Well, Sneak’s an older teenager, and a very bright one. Zie’s perfectly trustworthy around cooking equipment. So’s Gigi, though she’s so insanely picky that she’s long since been banned from being in charge of food. (We went… a dangerously long time under her reign living purely on tiny servings of bananas, cucumbers, pickles, green beans, and noodles with no sauces or toppings.)