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“I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey … ” A visit to Reddit’s “seduction” community.

If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.

Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.

The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:

So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.

Let’s have the deets!

A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.

Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a  little … awkward.

Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.

Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?

I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.

It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.

Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.

PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:

I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.

Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.

Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.

Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”

Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.

So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.

Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.

Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”

Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!

Fangs78 added:

Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.

Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”

It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”

This post contains:

384 replies on ““I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey … ” A visit to Reddit’s “seduction” community.”

“A lot of feminists fail to see that most communication can be and is done non-verbally. They seem to have no understanding of men using a woman’s body language and facial expressions to determine if she is enjoying or not enjoying the interaction.”

Possibly this has to do with the multitude of dudes who ever so sincerely complain that they are biologically incapable of figuring out such things without a clearly-labeled picture book (or perhaps not even with that)?

But, actually, I think you’re right — guys simply aren’t that incapable, and most of the time when they claim to be they’re doing so because they think they can get away with something if they bring out the fifties sitcom gender tropes. My suspicion is that if ignoring a woman’s wishes with respect to sexual activity resulted in a high probability of a thumb in each eye socket delivered immediately, rather than a low probability of a complaint delivered later, we’d suddenly see a positively epic revolution in the ability of men to read social cues that would put even the Flynn effect to shame,

@Firebee: Nice spin! I wasn’t talking about mens ability to understand non-verbal cues.

But if you want to bring that up, a lot of non-verbal cues are highly subjective. What one woman does to say she isn’t interested might be different from another woman. Hell, sometimes what one woman does to say she is interested is what another woman uses to say she isn’t.

A lot of men get frustrated by this because a lot of the time those cues are convoluted, contradicting or otherwise vague.

@ithiliana: You still on that old bit huh? I would ask you to provide an example and explanation but I know you wont do it and will just resort to snide comments.

@Protagoras: I could see this with men that have autism or some other disorder that prevents them from properly reading social and/or non-verbal cues. In that situation, verbally expressing ones thoughts can be helpful.

However, I don’t think people should go around trying not to offend anyone or to not have any awkward misunderstandings. What offends one person, might help another person bond with another. I don’t think people should go through life catering to everyone’s whims. People need to be who they want to be and not “walk on egg shells” around people.

We know Brandon. You should never have to be inconvenienced in any way. You’ve said it several times already.

You’re just too cool for school.

Your drivel is what I was “babbling” (fuck you) about:

However, I don’t think people should go around trying not to offend anyone or to not have any awkward misunderstandings. What offends one person, might help another person bond with another. I don’t think people should go through life catering to everyone’s whims. People need to be who they want to be and not “walk on egg shells” around people.

I know you think no one but YOUR whims should be catered to.

@Hellkell: I said that one should move through life not afraid of offending people. Where do I say my whims should be catered too?

@Hellkell: Well, if I say it everywhere, then it should be easy to pick an example.

But if you don’t want to do it, then I will just say you are full of shit.

Brandon, why don’t you go yell about bombs on an airplane and fires in the theater or something?

Uh-huh. What’s wrong, is it time for negative attention? Or is it just “rape-apology and “I’m awesome:30?”

Everything you say here is clearly intended to assert your superiority over us. Don’t be disingenuous at this stage of the game.

@Hellkell: Well, then I will stick with my “you are full of shit” remarks if you can’t provide one measly example.

You would really make a terrible debater. Don’t quit your day job.

@Hellkell: Now you are doing non sequiturs? What do my “whims” have to do with anything being discussed here?

Brandon The Rape Apologist: IT”S A CLASSIC! Nobody needs to justify the CLASSICS.

Which are, if you actually read them, often massive rape narratives justifying rape narratives and pimping rape narratives. Like you.

Like I’m going to take debating tips from you, of all people. You don’t come here to debate, at least not in good faith. You come here to… I really don’t know why you come here. Oh yeah, to “fuck” with us. If this is representative of your fucking skills, color me unimpressed.

You said earlier you don’t think everyone’s whims should be catered to. I was wondering where you stood on that for you. Not a non-sequitur, if you can read.

@ithiliana: Well, if you can’t provide one example…then I am going to assume you are talking out your ass and are full of shit as well.

OH, NOES, ITHILIANA, BRANDON THINKS WE’RE FULL OF SHIT!!! WHATEVER SHALL WE DO?

Quite funny from the King of Being Full of Shit.

There are a bunch of ways to approach these kinds of situations – frankly, I really, really like to be asked. I am a very skittish person, sexually, and it’s sort of a turn-on when someone takes the time to consider my feelings and wants, and braves the possible rejection to specifically ask if XYZ act is okay. It makes me feel like they see me as more than a masturbation tool, and that makes me happy.

A recent partner is into domination, which sort of scares me. But he’s very respectful of my boundaries and is careful, so I said I’d be willing to try some things out – provided there was always a safe word and that we talked about it beforehand. Some things, I say okay to, and others, I say no. This, to me, is a very reasonable model for how I operate, and he also seems to be pretty okay with it, despite asking being a sort of submissive thing and he’s more inclined for domination. Somehow, even in a casual relationship, we are able to consider what each other might want and talk about it in a way that helps us determine how to explore some new territory.

It’s not walking on eggshells; it’s just being considerate.

Brandon, in the OP, men were talking about ignoring the obvious verbal clue of a date saying the word “No” up to ten times. Why would they react to nonverbal clues like their date pulling away, cringing, or tensing up when they try to “escalate”? I use the word escalate because that’s what the PUA’s call it. The advice given to Throw5891away was terrible. They should have advised him that if he has any doubt about what his partner wants, it’s not awkward to simply ask her.

First you said

They seem to have no understanding of men using a woman’s body language and facial expressions to determine if she is enjoying or not enjoying the interaction.

but then you said

A lot of men get frustrated by this because a lot of the time those cues are convoluted, contradicting or otherwise vague.

If nonverbal clues are that hard to read, then they need to use verbal communication to make it clearer.

@Hellkell: I “fuck” with you because most of the commenters here do not engage in debate. I have tried several times and it usually falls into a insult swapping contest.

I never mentioned anything about peoples whims being catered to. I am assuming you are picking at this line:

“I don’t think people should go through life catering to everyone’s whims.”

This doesn’t mean people should cater to my whims. It means that I don’t get bent out of shape if someone gets offended at what I say. I think people should not be afraid to say something because someone might not like it. It has nothing to do with other people catering to my whims or wants.

But Kendra, that takes all the spontaneity, or, er, “romance” out of it, and whims might be catered to! We can’t have that!

In all seriousness, it’s almost Christmas. What kind of miserable person wants to spend Christmas trolling, or “fucking with”, people they dislike?

Brandon, do you mean try to debate like when Pecunium hands you your ass eight ways to Sunday? That’s always fun.

We know you don’t care if other people get offended. Brandon and his feelings > everyone else and theirs.

But if you want to bring that up, a lot of non-verbal cues are highly subjective. What one woman does to say she isn’t interested might be different from another woman. Hell, sometimes what one woman does to say she is interested is what another woman uses to say she isn’t.

A lot of men get frustrated by this because a lot of the time those cues are convoluted, contradicting or otherwise vague.

And asking your partner isn’t an option? If “a lot of men” really were honestly “frustrated” by “convoluted, contradicting, or otherwise vague” social cues, the idea of asking people how they feel about sex wouldn’t seem so hilarious to you.

And we already know that you’re fine with doing sexual things to your partner without her consent, you proved that in the thread where you said you wanted to tape your sex acts. Or are you “confused” by the social norm where it’s illegal to record people without their permission, except under specific circumstances?

@Klopbop: If I tried to touch you and you pulled away…that is you rejecting me, non verbally.

Rejection doesn’t just happen verbally. If you pulled away, I would think you didn’t want to continue our interaction and I would politely excuse myself.

@Kendra: Some men don’t have a problem with understanding non verbal cues while other men get frustrated. I am a firm believer that actions speak louder than words and if a woman said “yes” to me, but pulled away, I would take that as a “no”.

Some men don’t or can’t see those cues because they may be socially inept. Thus verbal cues are often used after non-verbal cues are ineffective.

Lastly, PUA’s have tons of jargon. The same is true of feminism and gender studies. Very rarely will you hear about heteronormativity and intersectionality outside of feminist circles.

It means that I don’t get bent out of shape if someone gets offended at what I say. I think people should not be afraid to say something because someone might not like it. It has nothing to do with other people catering to my whims or wants.

Again, go yell about bombs on an airplane or fires in the theater. I mean, somebody might get ‘offended’ at what you say, but why should you care?

But if you want to bring that up, a lot of non-verbal cues are highly subjective. What one woman does to say she isn’t interested might be different from another woman. Hell, sometimes what one woman does to say she is interested is what another woman uses to say she isn’t.

A lot of men get frustrated by this because a lot of the time those cues are convoluted, contradicting or otherwise vague.

The more I think about this, the less I buy it. I make a point of observing non-verbal cues so I can learn how to interpret them, and in my experience they’re pretty consistent, at least within cultures. If they were just subjective, they wouldn’t be “cues,” they’d be tics, private movements that signal nothing.

Not to mention! The OP isn’t about “nonverbal cues” being “highly subjective” and confusing the poor dears. the OP is about this:

Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.

Is this”confusing”?

In all seriousness, it’s almost Christmas. What kind of miserable person wants to spend Christmas trolling, or “fucking with”, people they dislike?

Meh, for me Christmas is another two weeks away.

Brandon:

@Klopbop: If I tried to touch you and you pulled away…that is you rejecting me, non verbally.

Rejection doesn’t just happen verbally. If you pulled away, I would think you didn’t want to continue our interaction and I would politely excuse myself.

THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU. If you understand non-verbal communication, and you know what to do in response, and you do it, because to do otherwise would be inappropriate….then why are you nattering on about how hard nonverbal communication is in a sexual context?
..
..
it’s the sex part, isn’t it? Listen, Brandon, when a mommy-person and a daddy-person love each other very much and want to give each other a special hug, there are certain ways they can tell each other about this…

@Cassandra: All my shopping is done and the parties don’t start till tomorrow.

@Hellkell: Really? Do you take my feelings into consideration when you have called me an idiot? No. Why don’t you hold yourself to the same standard you want to hold me to.

@Voip: Or women could try and not give out mixed signals to men. You know like grab the inside of my thigh and get close to my face or whisper a sexual innuendo in my ear…but be appalled when I try to kiss her.

Apparently you never took a debating class in high school or college. It is called playing the devil’s advocate. I have never videotaped any sex act nor do I own a camera to do it.

Brandon, based on your work here, and your supremely self-centered and bleak view of the world, I don’t give one tiny fuck about your feelings. What does that have to do with anything?

Looks like the devil’s getting exactly what he paid for in terms of advocacy help for you, B.

Brandon said

Some men don’t or can’t see those cues because they may be socially inept. Thus verbal cues are often used after non-verbal cues are ineffective.

Sure some men are socially inept, as well as some women. If they can’t read nonverbal clues, then they should verbally ask for consent. However, I also think that can be a convenient excuse that rapists use, that they can’t possibly understand if they have consent or not. A lot of rapists deny that what they do is rape because “Hey, who could ever know if someone consents or not?” The PUA’s in the OP are a good example. They might know damn well that nine no’s really means no, but they just don’t care.

I was going to say something about B contradicting himself in consecutive comments, but then I realised it’s not that unusual for him. And a lot more boring than when NWO does it.

@Voip: You make a point of reading and understanding non-verbal cues. Others don’t. You can’t just expect people to know something because you know something. There are also people out there with aspergers and other autistic disorders that can’t easily understand non verbal cues.

Context matters when someone is saying “no”. What if the woman is saying “no” but is rubbing my crotch? The quote you quoted doesn’t really have enough information to make a complete examination. Hell, I have had women say things like “yes, no, yes, no, keep going, no, no, yes, oh my god, yes, no, etc…” to me. What should I do in that scenario? Should I stop?…Or keep going?…Or pray to God?

Again, a womans actions are far more telling than her words. If she says “no” than proceeds to jam her tongue down my throat (it has happened), I take that as “let’s keep going”.

Lastly, stop being a condescending twit. It makes you look childish and petty.

“Lastly, stop being a condescending twit. It makes you look childish and petty.”

I’m just going to leave that here so everyone can revel in the delicious irony.

I get so hot when Brandon tells us how to behave. Oh, wait, no I don’t.

Someone here is childish and petty, and it’s not VoiP.

The funny thing is that I think he actually does expect us to get hot and bothered when he attempts to be dominant over the internet.

Ooh baby, give me another one of those tl;dr comments about how hard it is for men to read body language. It makes me so hot.*

*Actually that’s because I’m drinking a nice hot cup of tea.

His attempts to be dominant bring the lulz, but I bet Ash loves it!

I’ve known guys him like who think a slap on the ass means they’re doms. Let’s just say not so much.

Ohhh, Brandon, c’mon, baby, tell me how much you hate it when I’m condescending. We can even turn the light while you do.

Hell, I have had women say things like “yes, no, yes, no, keep going, no, no, yes, oh my god, yes, no, etc…” to me. What should I do in that scenario? Should I stop?…Or keep going?…Or pray to God?

That’s when you specifically ask.
“You keep alternating between yes and no, and it’s confusing the bejeebus out of me. Do you want me to keep going?”

@Hellkell: Actually, I find feminists have a bleak world view. Always finding fault with men when it comes to male-female sexual relations. It must really suck being a marginalized group in the world.

Well, if you don’t care about my feelings…then don’t be surprised when I don’t a shit about yours. Equality is a bitch sometimes!

@Kendra: That’s kind of speculative. Are you friends with a lot of rapists and know their inner most thoughts?

Also, I have known women that told me they told guys “no”, and he stopped and she got mad that he wasn’t more persistent. This is the environment that men are in today. Where women are giving out “fake no’s” to test men if they will actually stop or not.

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