This whole “mocking misogyny” thing? Apparently we’re doing it all wrong. Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights Subreddit, jmnzz has helpfully explained what misogyny is, and what it isn’t.
Misogyny: The hatred of women
Not misogyny: Bad taste jokes about rape/abuse/etc. Logic. Counterarguments. Disagreements. Harsh language. Saying cunt. Saying bitch. Calling women names. Being pro-life. Calling every woman who accuses a man of rape a liar.
Why are none of these things misogyny? Because you do not have to hate women to do any or all of these things. You might, but not everyone who does them hate women.
Seriously. What on earth is misogynist about calling all the fucking cunts who accuse men of rape of being goddamn lying bitches? When guys call women lying whores, they do it out of love.
But hey, in all seriousness, I have to give Maggie props here for actually raising the issue of misogyny in r/mensrights.
NOTE: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN …..
ImprobableJoe, the context was actually a fundamentalist Christian one, and it wasn’t quite as extremist as saying men can’t help themselves but rape when immodestly-dressed women are around. Mind you, I totally agree that the *result* of the misandrist tendencies was to reinforce misogyny.
It was more stuff about how men are hopeless in the kitchen, or diapering babies, or how men refuse to wear front-facing baby carriers because they’re not manly. Which, to me in my liberal enclave in the city, was RIDICULOUS. I see lots of dads with snugglies strapped to their chests, and I’m positive they can’t all be gay. And the end result, of course, was to reinforce gender roles and let men off the hook when it comes to cooking, cleaning and childcare.
An old high school friend of mine once said wistfully that she kind of misses teaching (her job before she was a stay-at-home-mom), but she couldn’t possibly expect her husband to pick up the slack if she went back to work. The poor dear just wouldn’t know how. And I was once at a fundamentalist baby shower for a different old high school friend in which a married woman, in the midst of complaining about something hopelessly male her husband does (her words, not mine), said even though it’s a sin, she totally understands why women choose to become lesbians, because men are just so inarticulate and tough to handle.
And here’s me, very much NOT out to this crowd, thinking, “Uh, as the resident queer, I assure you lesbian relationships are a little more complicated than just being frustrated by men who won’t do housework.” Not that I actually SAID that, but I thought it pretty hard. And it tends to get interpreted as men CAN’T do housework, as opposed to men WON’T do housework. Which, to me, again, was ludicrous because I know plenty of straight couples where the men pull their weight in terms of housework and childcare. But those men aren’t fundamentalist Christians.
Raincitygirl, I just knew it had to be religious fundamentalists… it is a gift, like gaydar only ugly. 🙂 Behind that whole “men can’t figure out housework” is the barely hidden “… and therefore some woman better go get me a beer while I sit and watch TV.” Which I’ve never understood, unless the guy moved straight from his mommy’s house to his home with his new properly subservient wife. Otherwise, at some point a man had to have lived alone. Did he somehow magically have the money to only eat prepared foods, have a laundry AND cleaning service, and I guess keep beer in a cooler built into the recliner since there was no one to bring him one?
Of course, this also leads to the problem of what happens when a man raised not to know how to do “women’s work” marries a woman who grew up too liberated to feel like she needed to learn “women’s work.” Now you have a household where nobody knows how to iron a shirt or bake some muffins or do basic cleaning stuff… joy!
Funny how you never see an MRA assert that he does all the cooking and cleaning because women are unfit for the task.
I went to Mars Hill Church for a while (long long ago) and I remember Mark Driscoll talking about how he couldn’t figure out how to turn on the vacuum and his 4-year-old daughter had to show him.
I couldn’t help wondering how he could say that without the slightest suspicion that he might just be a terrible lazy-ass excuse for a human being.
…Seriously? My vacuum has a big, yellow “on” button. It’s not that complicated.
And as for cooking and cleaning, I firmly believe that if you can read, you can figure it out. It doesn’t take mysterious special powers to make cupcakes. (If you want them to be spectacularly good ones, though, that takes skill.)
Wow, Mark Driscoll is admittedly dumber than a small child. Whether than is because he is literally less intelligent than his child, or also because he believes owning a vagina comes with instant knowledge of the vacuum arts, it is impossible for me to say. What I can say is that he has a douche hairstyle… yeah, I can judge people pretty well by their hair.
“Perhaps we need another word for these Reddit guys since misogyny is not correct.”
“Asshole” works. Or “hypocrite”, since apparently almost anything a woman does can be considered misandry.
Maybe Driscoll has a Dyson. Those have two buttons, one for the power and one to turn the brush on and off. Maybe that’s what threw him?
This is reminding me of all the stories about how David Beckham got stuck inside his own horse barn because he couldn’t figure out how to open the latch. I bet these guys would think those jokes were based on misandry, too, rather than on the cultural trope that pretty people and athletes are stupid.
Still, unless you have some sort of developmental problem, it doesn’t take two X chromosomes to be able to vacuum, or cook at an amateur level, or wash the dishes.
Hell, picking up after yourself and feeding yourself is something all functional adults ought to be able to do. Dismissing it as “women’s work” is just excusing laziness.
Of the two married fundamentalist Christian women I know well (old school friends), one’s husband still lived with his parents before he got married, so his mum did his cooking and cleaning. The other’s husband had an apartment, but his mum lived close by and used to come by to clean and drop off casseroles. For realz.
I actually know a third fundamentalist Christian woman, although she’s actually not a friend of mine, but of my little sister’s. This woman, we’ll call her “Aeryn” (because it’s not her name), subscribes to the principle of Biblical headship. In other words, she expects her husband “John” to make all the big decisions for the family, and they base this expectation on Scripture. The only snag is that John is the most mild-mannered, indecisive guy I have ever had the privilege of meeting. Theoretically he takes all the decisions, but in a practical sense, Aeryn (who is very decisive) tells him what to think and do. According to my sister, they’re happy, so obviously it works for them.
Where it gets dicey is that Aeryn and John recommend using the principle of Biblical headship in ALL relationships, not just their own (fireworks ensued when she told my sister that’s why her relationship failed, and that’s how I know all this stuff, because my sister told me when she and Aeryn were temporarily not on speaking terms). It’s all very well for Aeryn to subscribe to this theory. SHE happens to have the kind of husband who asks her who to vote for before he goes to the polling station. But I know quite a few guys who would glom onto a principle like that and use it to get their own way all the time.
Oh, and even though John is the meekest guy that ever meeked, Aeryn still does all the housework and cooking.
P.S. Some of these Redditers seem like prime candidates for a Roomba. Or a housework-doing robot.
These are the masters of technology, folks.
Katz, did you live in Seattle? The main MH church was in my old ‘hood, those people are frightening.
Pyena, it is excusing laziness while also being dismissive and insulting towards women, AND seems to carry some sort of weird hate/entitlement thing beyond both of those. Men get to be both incapable of those jobs AND too good for them. Which is weird, because that would be like whining that you’re too weak to pick up a heavy object while bragging that you are too good to get your hands dirty. I mean, I guess you can do that but it isn’t exactly flattering.
Plus, well… the best housekeepers in the world are the United States Marine Corps, male and female. I can run a floor buffer, scrub a toilet, and put a razor-sharp crease in a T-shirt or a pair of socks if necessary… and I didn’t magically forget all that when I was discharged or when I got married. I’d say that any guy who can’t or won’t cook and clean for himself and/or his family isn’t much of a man.
” I bet these guys would think those jokes were based on misandry, too, rather than on the cultural trope that pretty people and athletes are stupid.”
And what they’d fail to acknowledge is that most feminists think it is a stupid, damaging trope too. No one should be bombarded with images that tell them they’re bumbling buffoons who can’t manage to cook a pack of Ramen or clean the bathroom. It’s stupid and demeaning.
Wait, how do we know what kind of vacuum cleaner Mark Driscoll has?
A lot of the “women’s work” idea, I think, arises because certain men don’t understand that choosing the work you want can be self-indulgent. They think that because they work hard in a career they chose and like, they’ve done their fair share, and that the other stuff must therefore fall to someone else; I don’t know whether they think that women like doing housework or that it just doesn’t matter.
hellkell, I lived in Kirkland. I was going through a conservative phase in college, I think out of sheer obstinacy.
katz, we don’t know what kind of vacuum cleaner Driscoll has. I’m guessing he doesn’t either. I’m also guessing that his story never happened, since lying is the primary form of communication in fundie Christian circles.
The way my parents split housework, my dad would do the vacuuming (among other chores), so as a kid I always thought it was a manly chore. C’mon, it makes loud noises! And the vacuum is slightly heavy! IT ALL MAKES SENSE! 😀
Housework robot. There is a group of MRAs who are interested in exploring the questions involved in whether or not women–or at least feminists–can be replaced with automation?
I’m not saying that they all will be, but on the oher hand…
Given the progress we have seen in the past two or three centuries, I hardly think that this would be impossible. What will happen to human females (except for those few unusually gifted in the feminine arts of charm, allure, playfulness, soothing tranquilityl, and domestic excellence? The prevalence of misogyny seems to be telling you that too many men are already starting to consider most females (especially of the feminist variety) useless when not destructive, and destructive when not useless!
Food for thought!
My husband is way neater than me, and actually likes cleaning, so more power to him. I’ll happy dust and do the bathrooms if it means never vacuuming again.
I missed this, but this does explain my husband:
So does nobody want to help me reply to my Google Plus friend?
My wife’s a better cook than I am, and enjoys it. So I do the vacuuming, which I admittedly enjoy less, but it’s fair and balances things out nicely.
And yes, it has a big ON switch – so big that I can operate it with my foot – and aside from pointing the nozzle in the right place* and making sure that it doesn’t suck up anything valuable, and changing the bag once in a while, that’s pretty much all the skill it takes. I think I’ve more or less mastered it by now.
*Speaking of which…
Maybe men are just AFRAID OF THE NOISE THE VACUUM MAKES OH NOOOOO