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bad science entitled babies manosphere MGTOW misogyny

The Guardian runs interference for a shoddy, terrible UK government report on the Manosphere

a photo of a young angry dude that I ran through some filters

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Last week, the Guardian ran a surprisingly uncritical article on a new UK government report on the manosphere, which was itself surprisingly uncritical. The report, put forth by the UK’s official communications regulator Ofcom, claims, among other things, that its new research “challenge[s] the assumptions about the experiences and perceptions of individuals consuming manosphere content” and that many of these poor maligned fellows actually have “a strong commitment to equal treatment and fairness,” which is a sentiment I’ve never encountered in the manosphere after 15 years of immersing myself in its shit.

Sure, most manospherians delude themselves into thinking that men are the truly oppressed class, and they think that they deserve some sort of reparations or perhaps an award for this, and that this would only be fair, but that’s not the same as actually having a commitment to reality based “equal treatment and fairness.” 

The report was written by a self-described “specialist in marketing, design & communication” named Damon De Ionno. He’s the managing director of Revealing Reality, “A MULTIDISCIPLINARY AGENCY, HELPING OUR CLIENTS DELIVER CHANGE” (sorry, their web page has it in all-caps) that actually did the research for Ofcom. De Ionno told the Guardian that manosphere dudes are (I guess secretly?) “pretty discriminating and value-driven” and that “our research suggests society has overestimated the risk of the manosphere to women.”

Oh, and apparently only a “a minority [of manospherians have] encountered ‘extremely misogynistic content,’” as the Guardian summarizes one of the report’s claims. Really? That’s like saying that only a minority of fish have encountered water in the ocean. 

The Guardian basically just repeats what De Ionno’s report says with no pushback on any of its specific claims beyond a single paragraph mentioning that “separate expert studies have found some evidence that the language of the manosphere can escalate into physical violence.”

Setting aside The Guardian’s inability to do basic journalism in this piece, one might wonder: how exactly did De Ionno and his researchers come to their, ah, unique conclusions? The Guardian gives us a little hint, noting in passing that

The Ofcam study involved 38 men, and more misogynistic men may have declined to take part. Some potential recruits refused to take part, considering the government-appointed regulator to be part of the “mainstream”. Perhaps the most impressionable group, boys under 16, were also not included.

Huh. So this is a small, thoroughly unscientific, thoroughly unrepresentative survey of the only manosphere dudes they could find who were unradicalized enough to agree to talk to someone representing an official government body. (There was also one pro-manosphere woman, god help us all, making the total number of subjects 39. A fortieth dropped out.) Oh, and as I learned from reading the report itself, none of the researchers seem to have made much of an attempt to find out if any of the things these guys told them were, you know, true. 

In short, this study doesn’t tell us much if anything about the manosphere itself. It tells us what 38 men and one woman associated with the manosphere think the government and the public should think about it. And the, er, researchers basically accepted this PR job as reality. And seemed oblivious when their interviewees still went ahead and said rancidly misogynistic things. 

Let’s go through the report and you can see what a mess it was. 

First, it was scientifically shoddy. The report admits plainly that the researchers did no “systematic literature review” of previous studies of the manosphere and that the dudes (and one lady) they interviewed were a “self-selecting” bunch that just might exclude “those with more extreme views.” They accepted a dictionary definition of the manosphere as a “loose agglomeration of blogs, websites and forums dedicated to men’s issues,” which is like describing Trump administration ghoul Stephen Miller as “a government official interested in the issue of immigration.” I mean, it’s technically correct, but boy does it miss the fucking point.

The researchers seem to think that only the most extreme expressions of misogyny–like “posts explicitly calling for violence against women and using dehumanizing language”–really count as misogyny. But the researchers suggested that many other comments that you or I would consider misogynistic were actually ambiguous at best, like “self-improvement advice … directed at men with the goal of improving their romantic or sexual success with women, based on assumptions about women’s nature and their romantic and sexual preferences.” 

Uh, yeah, but what if these “assumptions about women’s nature” are, you know, misogynistic as hell? I mean, the standard belief among manospherians is that essentially all women are cock-hungry slatterns (not that there’s anything wrong with that, I would say, but they wouldn’t) who fuck hundreds of different Chads a year, ignoring all the nice fellows. And this sort of woman (i.e. every woman) will desert any man she’s with in a heartbeat if she catches a whiff of the superior genes of any slightly Chaddier Chad in sniffing distance. 

Oh, the researchers also think it’s ambiguous when manospherians start going on about the “immutable differences between men and women but without asserting the dominance or superiority of one over the other.” Which is weird, because when have you ever seen manospherians talking about alleged gender, ah, “differences” without implicitly or explicitly making clear that they think men are superior?

They say that defining content in the manosphere as “misogynistic or otherwise is challenging” and I can only say, to you, maybe. Most of us can see it for what it is. The report goes on to declare that “a wide range” of manosphere content they found in their unsystematic review of previous studies “does not appear at face value to contain misogyny,” which makes me wonder if the researchers can actually read. 

Then they get to the interviews, reporting breathlessly that

Most of the men we spoke to reported positive views of women. Most mentioned that they had women in “their lives – both personal and professional – that they loved and respected.”

Hey, even Archie Bunker had a black friend! I mean, sort of. 

Most, in line with their stated commitment to equal treatment and fairness, emphasised that women should be able to exercise individual choice in their lives.

Mighty generous of them–though this isn’t a particularly popular belief among manospherians, who tend to talk endlessly about the need to crack down on women and their inexcusable freedoms.

Also, the interviewees themselves would go on to say things like:

They want to be equal to be like men, but for what, because when I go on a date, I still got to pay.

And then there was another interviewee’s remarkable half-way defense of misogynistic Muslims who beat their wives:

It sounds horrible yeh, but like, a lot of relationships are like, when you argue, and the woman gets battered, if the woman wasn’t allowed to argue back with you that wouldn’t happen. So, they kind of get that bit right. The woman doesn’t confront, or doesn’t argue back with you, because they’re going to get a slap.

But I don’t think that the slap bit is right. …  I don’t think the hitting each other is right, but I think how they are getting women to act is.

So the “slap bit” is wrong but it’s kind of the fault of the women for, you know, speaking.

Big sections of the report consist of completely uncritical regurgitations of what the interviewees said about themselves without any attempt to actually evaluate if these things were true. Here’s the MGTOW movement, seen through the eyes of (some of) its participants, and apparently the researchers as well:

The men engaged with MGTOW content described it as supportive, enlightening, and sometimes irreverent or funny. … 

These men felt strongly that the majority of MGTOW communities were not focused on misogyny, as the content they saw did not, in their view, promote hatred of women, but rather a view that life was better without relationships with them.

As for incels, well, despite them sometimes posting “extreme fantasies of sexual violence,” the report noted helpfully that some of the “participants said they had read studies showing that the vast majority of Incels are not violent.” Just like the vast majority of Americans in 1865 did not assassinate Abraham Lincoln. There was just that one guy. That’s a mere 0.000003% of the population! 

It’s such a strange and terrible, and profoundly lazy, report. I can only hope that the UK government didn’t pay Revealing Reality much money for it, but somehow I suspect they did. But hey, it will probably convince the government to spend less on monitoring misogynistic hate online, so really, it probably saved them some money in the end. A pence saved is a pence earned. 

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Chris Oakley
Chris Oakley
5 months ago

Definitely not the Guardian’s best work.

danielrigal
danielrigal
5 months ago

If previous bogus reports for the UK Government are anything to go by then the authors will probably get a gong, of some sort, out of this too. I doubt it’s worth a Peerage, or even a Knighthood, but it will probably be MBEs all round.

Pope of Discord
Pope of Discord
5 months ago

For those unfamiliar with the state of UK politics, our current Prime Minister is absolutely desperate for any opportunity he can find to suck up to the far right and the tech industry, so pushing through a total whitewash report like this to launder the image of something that’s profoundly entwined with the ecosystem of hard-right culture warriors and AI bros he wants to court is entirely on brand.

Jazzlets
Jazzlets
5 months ago

“pretty discriminating and value-driven”

Well in the sense that they’re discriminating against women and that their values include the belief all women are inferior to all men, yes that sounds right.

So the “slap bit” is wrong but it’s kind of the fault of the women for, you know, speaking.

On a par with the conversation I heard in a Birmingham pub in the early 80s, involving a group of lads discussing Dave. Dave hit his girlfriend with a stick which was right out of order, slapping girlfriends around was fine, but a stick was taking it too far.

It’s particularly disappointing as the Guardian has been making a point of listing all the women killed in partner violence in the UK each year. Somewhere over the years the paper has decided that it has to publish both sides of a lot of issues where there really is only one side, their coverage of trans issues would be another appalling example.

Sylvia, Keeper of Arcane Lore
Sylvia, Keeper of Arcane Lore
5 months ago

their coverage of trans issues would be another appalling example.

Surprise, surprise!
<eyeroll>

Lollypop
Lollypop
5 months ago

@Pope of Discord

That makes a lot of sense. It’s such a weird PR piece but I couldn’t puzzle out the purpose of it.

There needs to be some kind of law against piss-weak PR generated stats/surveys being reported by news outlets as if they are actual NEWS and not paid ads. People take them like they are real research, which is relatively harmless (if very annoying) when it’s Heinz or something talking about what how you eat your beans says about your personality, but is usually leveraged in far subtler and more insidious ways a la the above.

I’m also not convinced that half the time money doesn’t change hands for the placement.

Full Metal Ox
Full Metal Ox
5 months ago

@Lollypop:

…when it’s Heinz or something talking about what how you eat your beans says about your personality…

Oh, Heinz is most assuredly using those to profile respondents, garnering data on their consumption habits, demographics, and self-perceptions: do we market you our products as Nostalgia Beans? Cosmopolitan Beans? Environmentally Conscious Beans? Struggle Beans? Ethnic Pride Beans? 

Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

Fun fact: There has never been a time when Heinz has sold 57 products. They just thought it was a cool sounding number.

Full Metal Ox
Full Metal Ox
5 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw:

Fun fact: There has never been a time when Heinz has sold 57 products. They just thought it was a cool sounding number.

And 2018 brought me a conclusive answer to something I’d wondered throughout my life: although Heinz used to send free 57th birthday goodie packages, they discontinued the practice some while ago—in fact long before I was born.

From Snopes:

By the time the H. J. Heinz company celebrated its 100th anniversary in 1969 its product line included more than 1,100 items, but over the years the number 57 had permeated almost every aspect of the Heinz corporate culture. Besides being a company slogan, it appeared in the name of one of their best-selling products (Heinz 57 steak sauce), their mailing address (P.O. Box 57), and their phone number (273-5757). Yankee great Joe DiMaggio reportedly lost out on a $10,000 promotional deal with Heinz when his major-league record hitting streak ended at 56 games in July 1941 (he later claimed that the Heinz deal was “just talk”), up until the 1950s anyone who wrote to Heinz about an upcoming 57th birthday received a free case of Heinz products, and in 2001 Heinz paid $57 million to have the new home of the Pittsburgh Steelers football team dubbed Heinz Field.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/57-varieties/

John Devalle
John Devalle
3 months ago

How thorough David is your research of the manosphere? You spend your time immersed in the worst of mysoginistic content and assume it’s entirely of that nature. It isn’t.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
3 months ago

John Davelle,
Considering that David ran a blog for years on the manosphere, I think it’s pretty thorough.
Feel free to let us know what major websites, organizations or figures aren’t really misogynistic though. No one has managed this in all the years since the blog was started, but who knows. Maybe you’ll be first!

Sylvia, Keeper of Arcane Lore
Sylvia, Keeper of Arcane Lore
3 months ago

WWTH! Welcome back!

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
3 months ago

Sylvia,
Thanks! It’s been quiet around here, but I couldn’t resist a chance to issue the “find a moderate MRA” troll challenge for old time’s sake.

John Devalle
John Devalle
3 months ago

WeirwoodTreeHugger

Considering that David ran a blog for years on the manosphere, I think it’s pretty thorough.
Feel free to let us know what major websites, organizations or figures aren’t really misogynistic though. No one has managed this in all the years since the blog was started, but who knows. Maybe you’ll be first”

Sites that David trawls through most of us have never heard of. Has he ever referred to a site with a big audience?
His issue with the Ofcom report only interviewing a small number of people is valid, but Ofcoms people looked at sites that some would say are manosphere. So the report isn’t comprehensive but it is a valid insight. Some sites describing methods of suicide, which suggests self hatred rather than hatred of women. On sites with a big audience, like X and Facebook I’ve seen little sexism but plenty of Islamophobia and race hatred and it’s not all male. Here in the UK a woman was recently jailed for social media posts urging people to burn down accommodation for asylum seekers. What’s disturbing is the amount of politicians who’ve spoke supporting her. Politicians whose game is racism and are a danger.
To return to David. Is there a site he’s frequently quoted that has a big audience? Correct me if I’m wrong when I say he’s obsessed with nutters who are a small minority. Racism has been weaponised by the far right, it is a threat, but the looneys David worry’s about are a small minority, and that includes a few the manosphere.
The real danger is that millions have lost faith in the political class and I don’t blame them. When that happens extremists get their chance, as if people distrust the establishment the extremists are the only alternative. That’s why Wilders, Le Pen, Meloni and others have a big following, it’s a repeat of the 30’s and this time the disease has infected the USA, hence Trump as Pres. That’s what should concern us, not a few nutters.

Sylvia, Keeper of Arcane Lore
Sylvia, Keeper of Arcane Lore
3 months ago

The manosphere had much to do with putting Trump behind the Resolute Desk. They deserve just as much scrutiny as racist orgs like the Klan and the John Birch Society.

I am picking up a distinct vibe from you that you would much rather the manosphere not be publicly critiqued. Why is that?

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
3 months ago

John,
That was a very long winded way of not providing an example of non-misogynistic manosphere figures or sites.
Now the goal posts have moved to only a few “nutters” are misogynists, therefore it’s not a political problem that should be discussed.
Never mind that patriarchy is essential component of far right ideology.

John Devalle
John Devalle
3 months ago

Hi Sylvia. In 2016 more white women voted for Trump than for Clinton, just one example that shows ‘strong’ men aren’t voted into power solely by men.
There are people in power in some European states who are worse than Trump but the reason they and Trump gained power is the same. A loss of faith in the political class. When that happens there’s nowhere to go other than to the extremists. It doesn’t follow that millions have become fascists. 75 million voted for Trump last year, There aren’t 75 million fascists in your country.
As to why the political establishment lost credibility, 2008 was crucial, in the US and Europe. While the public had austerity forced on them the rich bankers who caused the finance crisis got richer, looting the taxpayer funded bail out of the banks, while our rulers got rich as the bankers gave them a cut of the crime. Much that has happened since has enhanced the publics dismay regarding politicians.
It’s the 30’s on rewind. Don’t blame the people who voted for Trump, Wilding, Le Pen, Meloni etc, blame the ‘moderate’ politicians who are a bunch of crooks.
As for the manospere there is a part that’s very nasty but seems to be largely in your country. Random or racist mass shootings I think are a weekly event in the US but very rare on this side of the pond.

Makroth
Makroth
3 months ago

“In 2016 more white women voted for Trump than for Clinton”. This is false. And you STILL haven’t provided proof of non-mysoginistic MRA sites.

“Sites that David trawls through most of us have never heard of.”

This is also wrong. I expected nothing and i’m still dissapointed.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
3 months ago

If the UK manosphere is largely free of misogyny, it should be no problem at to point out which British manosphere figures, groups, or websites are non-misogynistic. Funny how John keeps on not doing that.

Alan Robertshaw
3 months ago

Speaking of reports, here’s one out today about bullying and sexual harassment at the Bar. My friend Charlotte features a fair bit in the examples. But be interested in people’s thoughts on the recommendations. Seems something people here will have informed opinions about.

https://www.barcouncil.org.uk/static/8ae513e7-07e2-4b20-b49c1c8dbbfa1377/563cbd91-791f-4ce0-9aa12600331609c8/Report-master-file-6.pdf

John Devalle
John Devalle
2 months ago

In reply to several concerning manoshpere sites that aren’t mysoginistic. I don’t frequent such sites often but have experience of them. 4 accounts from X are below, all manosphere but hardly women hating. Anyone care to mention some BIG women hating sites David has mentioned?

There are nutters around of many types, this blog once having a few. I’ll never forget how in 2016 when I called Wall St bankers a bunch of crooks there was a small stream of foul mouthed replies accusing me of antisemitism. Their reasoning was that lots of Jews work in banks (I don’t know if that’s true) and that the ogre of the evil Jewish banker was part of Nazi propaganda therefore any who criticize bankers are antiemetic. Brilliant! That’s particularly daft coming from American’s as there’s no bigger critic of Wall St than Bernie Sanders, whose Jewish.

So there’s a few nutters everywhere, even on WHTM.

https://x.com/MalePositive

https://x.com/CRC57325971

https://x.com/ManKindInit

https://x.com/BothParentsMtr

John Devalle
John Devalle
2 months ago

Makroth. “In 2016 more white women voted for Trump than for Clinton”. This is false.”

Do a bit of research.

in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, Donald Trump received more votes from white women than Hillary Clinton. According to exit polls conducted by Edison Research, Trump won 52% of white women, while Clinton received 45%.

However, it’s worth noting that later analyses—such as one by Pew Research—suggested the margin might have been narrower, estimating 47% for Trump and 45% for Clinton. Regardless of the exact figure, Trump did secure a plurality of white women’s votes, which was a significant factor in his overall victory.

John Devalle
John Devalle
2 months ago

Addressing Alan Robertshaw. Hello. Are you the Black Belt Barrister? If so I watched your YT video concerning County Courts as it’s possible a claim maybe made against me. It’s not likely as I think the company concerned is bluffing but the case is unusual and maybe interesting to a legal mind. I’m not seeking advice as I’m certain of victory if push comes to shove but if it interests you I can tell you of it. If so it would be best if we communicated elsewhere, maybe your YT profile. It doesn’t seem right to use this blog as it’s not likely to interest anyone here. My potential opponent in court is Yorkshire Water.

Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ john devalle

Are you the Black Belt Barrister?

No, he’s the famous popular one, I’m Art of Law. Dan did set that channel up for me though, and we do the occasional crossover. When he’s not on TV or hobnobbing with politicians.

Funnily enough someone has just tried to instruct me on a claim against another water company. Dumping sewage on surf competitions. But I mainly just do defamation and animal rights. So unless you’re a shire horse that’s got into a Twitter spat, that’s a bit out of my wheelhouse, sorry.

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
2 months ago

4 accounts from X are below, all manosphere but hardly women hating.

I took a look at these accounts and I dunno I think you’re just racist

Last edited 2 months ago by An Impish Pepper
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