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abortion open thread

The end of Roe v. Wade: Open Thread

Well, we knew it was coming. Though that doesn’t really help much. What a fucking disaster this is.

Discuss, rant, post links, whatever.

Here are some Tweets I thought made good points.

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Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
1 month ago

@Crip Dyke:

Put that all together and it seems to me as a well-informed non-expert that the court has abandoned jurisprudence altogether and is fabricating “reasoning” that not only isn’t accurate, but that the court doesn’t intend to be accurate, in order to provide superficial cover for terrible decisions.

That’s because this isn’t a normal US court anymore. It is a Nazi court, like you might have found in Berlin in 1936.

The last time the US Supreme Court acted in this manner was 1857. I’m sure no one here needs reminding what happened very soon afterward.

sunnysombrera
1 month ago

Put that all together and it seems to me as a well-informed non-expert that the court has abandoned jurisprudence altogether and is fabricating “reasoning” that not only isn’t accurate, but that the court doesn’t intend to be accurate, in order to provide superficial cover for terrible decisions.

Mental gymnastics that rely on thin technicalities is a pretty sure sign that whoever is doing it already has a desired conclusion in mind. Like you said, they are fabricating reasoning in order to justify their own whims.

Queen of the Harpies
Queen of the Harpies
1 month ago

@Joaquin

My fellow commenters are being very kind to “debate” your half-assed attempt at trolling, but I am not feeling kind or charitable in the least to anti-women shitbags like you right now, so I’ll just say this: Fuck off. Fuck off forever. You’re just regurgitating the same tired old arguments that anti-choicers and gun nuts have been spewing for ages now, no matter how many times they’ve been taken down by actual facts and data. You don’t have a uterus? You don’t get a fucking say in what a woman (or the rare pregnant trans man/NB) does with THEIR BODY. Period.

You don’t want to go to jail for not paying child support? Pay your goddamn child support. You don’t want to pay child support? Then keep YOUR fucking legs closed, you irresponsible prick. You can’t have it both ways. And I’m not even going to bother with your idiotic defense on firearms, everyone else is doing a good job educating you there too, which you will, of course, ignore, because you didn’t come here to have an honest debate, you just came here to be an obnoxious piece of shit, which you’ve certainly accomplished. Good job.

Now fuck off forever.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
1 month ago

@Crip Dyke:

Originalism is just a thin pretext for rolling back all the progress made by the Warren court. It’s hard to argue jurisprudence even exists when the court uses the same 14th Amendment in opposite ways within the same week to overturn 50 year old and 100+ year old laws.

As bad as Roe v. Wade is, an even more potentially harmful ruling is coming next week: West Virginia vs. EPA. (They always save the worst for last.) The Supreme Court is likely to completely upend the government’s ability to regulate carbon emissions, all pollution and all financial crimes by rich people. No more labor, wage or safety standards, food oversight, drug safety standards, education standards, etc. Red states will become unregulated sweatshop havens.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Brown v. Topeka Board of Education is next on the list of “settled law” to be revisited. After that, slavery, and a return to the 3/5 rule for blacks and women. This isn’t a court. It’s a panel of rogue jihadists consolidating power.

@Queen of the Harpies

Well said.

I’m not in the mood for politely entertaining “but what about MEEEE?” false equivalencies from MRAs worrying about their precious wallets in front of a group of people who just had their bodily autonomy taken away. It’s morally grotesque, like going to a slave auction and whining about the cost of keeping slaves and what a burden it is.

Here in the real world, there are rarely any consequences for men who decide to walk away from a pregnancy. There are no laws regulating their bodies. No pundits and legislators telling them they’re just breeding vessels and nothing more. No mobilization of neighbors and family and health care workers being incentivized to turn them in for bounties. No threat of being jailed for murder if they have a miscarriage. No withholding of medical treatment because it’s “God’s will”. It’s never the legal personhood of white men being debated. If they simply decide not to pay child support, nobody’s going after them in any meaningful way. A lot of men arrange to get paid under the table, or otherwise hide their income. Some simply stop working, or disappear.

Any time a woman has sex, she risks her physical health, her life, being socially shamed and shunned, having her life and career interrupted for eighteen years, poverty, the stigma of being a single mother with no support in a culture that doesn’t actually care about children, except as target practice for angry white misogynists with guns. Men don’t face any of those risks.

What’s happening here is so typical. Joaquin came waltzing in and sucked all the oxygen out of the room with “what about the MEN?” Once again, women get silenced. Once again, a man’s VERY hypothetical and VERY avoidable and relatively tiny problem gets centered, minimizing the reality of women dying, being maimed, being driven out of the public sphere, losing a fundamental right. Every time there’s a serious, life-or-death issue affecting women, some guy shows up with a splinter in his finger and demands that we all drop everything and triage him first.

If this thread is going to get derailed, could we at least talk about something real and interesting, like foods we love that no one else eats? (Circus peanuts, for me.)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ buttercup

(Circus peanuts, for me.)

There’s a pub I go to that has big barrels full of monkey nuts (as we call them here), and you just help yourself. You could probably do that elephant thing like in The Simpsons.

The tradition is just to throw the shells on the floor; so it’s pleasantly crunchy underfoot.

next on the list of “settled law” to be revisited.

Ah, yes, that.

To be lazy I hope I’ll be forgiven for just pasting something I did previously, It was in a Twitter chat to a journalist friend; hence the format.

I agree it’s terrifying; but I don’t find it unbelievable unfortunately. It’s not like the GOP have made any secret of their intentions. 

This decision was inevitable as soon as Kavanaugh used the term “settled law”.

That was a very deliberate choice of words…

…and they don’t mean what too many people convinced themselves they did mean.

BK was asked about overturning RvW. He could have given a straight yes or no answer; but instead he chose that term.

Permit me just to get a bit legal technical…

All settled law means is that *at this particular moment* the law is clear and fixed on a subject.

There can also be unsettled law.

We’ve had a good example of the difference between settled and unsettled law here in the Banks v Cadwallder case.

Most defamation law is settled. We all understand the various aspects of say what ‘serious harm’ is and what needs to be proved etc.

But in that case the issue of ‘new information’ came up.

There were two potential ways of dealing with that when it arose.

The parties and the judge agreed that at the moment there was no judicial authority on which way to go.

So the judge has allowed permission to appeal on that one point only so the CoA can give a determinative ruling on the issue.

So an issue that is currently unsettled law will hopefully become settled law. Then we’ll all know what to do when it arises.

But just because something is settled; that does not mean it can never be overturned.

There are lots of areas of settled law that do get overturned.

Prior to 1990 it was settled law that a married man could not rape his wife. Then in R v R the court (rightly) overturned that, and the marital rape exception was no longer applicable. So that’s the new settled law

So when BK deliberately chose those words, he was sending a very clear signal.

And there are similar things in all the confirmation hearing responses from the new justices.

Hope that makes some sense.

Last edited 1 month ago by Alan Robertshaw
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
1 month ago

@Alan:

I think Circus Peanuts may be a uniquely American travesty delicacy. They’re these things: comment image

Thanks for the great explanation on settled vs. unsettled law. I put settled law in quotes because nothing is ever truly settled, I guess. It seems odd that fundamental rights and freedoms are, apparently, alienable (despite what the Declaration of Independence says) and vary depending upon who’s on the bench and who put them there. One day you’re considered a person, and the next day you’re not; but if you wait another 100 years, you might be again.

Joaquin
Joaquin
1 month ago

Elaine

You told women if their pregnancy was going to kill them they can “eat shit and die”

No, i said “if they wanted symphaty from MEN, THEN they can eat shit and die”. Not the same.

Also, you are overestimating the amount of lethal complications during a pregnancy. OR i am underscoring them.

LouCPurr

You’re just horny for forcing women to breed.

No, that’s PRECISELY the point, i do not force women to “breed” they CHOOSE to have sex, and they CHOOSE with whom (SURPRISE, SURPRISE: they don’t choose ME, i’m SHOCKED).

LOL at the idea that having an abortion isn’t taking responsibility. It’s taking steps toward a solution. It’s just not the solution Jaoquin likes because the suffering for the woman is over too soon. Gosh darn it, pregnancy should be punishment!

For that matter, using the same logic, a man who leaves his pregnant girlfriend Is also archieving a solution. But in reality, is just a cowardly POS, like all men who run away from their responsibilities.

Elaine the witch

@Joaquin

I love to see criminals kill as many children with knives as they do guns.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/09/china/china-knife-attacks-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/9706196

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China

Were you saying something?

Also, for that matter: Can you explain to me HOW should i protect myself from a larger assailant OR MULTIPLE ATTACKERS? How can a disabled or elderly person protect himself against a young and strong criminal?

I’m open to suggestions, please!

Victorius Parasol:

Not a straw man, I’m afraid. In my own state, healthcare professionals have been required by law to spout absolute bullshit before advising a patient on abortion. Many doctors and nurses will say the words, but they may follow up the required speech by saying, “I’m required by law to say that, but here’s what the current medical reality is.” Or they will turn on the radio or run the water in the exam room’s sink so that the legally required bullshit is hard to hear.

Juniper:

My state has outlawed abortions in all cases except if the woman’s life is in danger. So no exceptions for rape, incest, or if the embryo/fetus has severe defects and probably won’t live anyway.

WAIT WAIT WAIT! That changes EVERYTHING.

That Is completely UNACCEPTABLE.

This Is a matter of responsibilities, and NO ONE should deal with of the consecuences of something THEY DID NOT DECIDED. That’s just sick and wrong.

But as for the women who have abortions for other reasons besides those, if they are so “irresponsible,” why would you want such an irresponsible person raising a baby?

Because “f.uck them”. That’s why.

But you don’t seem to care about the wellbeing of the babies at all. You’re just talking about pregnancy like it’s a punishment for an “irresponsible” woman having sex.

CORRECTION: MEN AND WOMEN should be punished for being irresponsible. Problem Is, women NEVER judge irresponsible men.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@Joaquin

I’ve had 3 miscarriages. the last one got me so sick, I was hospitalized. you are overestimating them. But let me guess, I don’t matter because I’m a small percentage in your world.

And the united states want to get rid of birth control, so I won’t be able to prevent that from happening at all.

sunnysombrera
1 month ago

SURPRISE, SURPRISE: they don’t choose ME, i’m SHOCKED

Whoop there it is. We found the source of his anger.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@Joaquin

You can defend yourself how ever you want. I have many guns, I’ve never tried to take guns away. but a knife can’t mow down a entire nightclub of people the same way a gun can. but nice try.

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@sunny

yeah, the guy who doesn’t want to pay child support or use birth control would be such a great father don’t you know

sunnysombrera
1 month ago

@elaine

It’s a familiar pattern. “Women won’t bone me therefore they deserve to suffer and I deserve to have consequence free sex. This must happen in the name of personal responsibility!”

Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@sunny

Jackass can lay down on the floor and let me kick him into the balls for several hours until he’s gushing blood, then have to go sit in an emergency room for 8 hours only to be told there isn’t much they can do for him but watch him for a couple days. Then he can talk to me about “responsibility”.

LouCPurr
LouCPurr
1 month ago

 (SURPRISE, SURPRISE: they don’t choose ME, i’m SHOCKED)

Yeah, so shocking. You seem like such a kind and level-headed fellow.

Problem Is, women NEVER judge irresponsible men.

Ehhhhhhhh? You never listen to women, do you. That’s the source of your problems here.

Last edited 1 month ago by LouCPurr
Elaine The Witch
Elaine The Witch
1 month ago

@Joaquin

Also, for God’s sake you idiot. its sympathy. that’s how you spell it.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 month ago

Can you explain to me HOW should i protect myself from a larger assailant OR MULTIPLE ATTACKERS?

What about cherries?

Red AND black?

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 month ago

Juniper:

My state has outlawed abortions in all cases except if the woman’s life is in danger. So no exceptions for rape, incest, or if the embryo/fetus has severe defects and probably won’t live anyway.

Joaquin:

WAIT WAIT WAIT! That changes EVERYTHING.

That Is completely UNACCEPTABLE.

Okay, hold on. You mean Joaquin charged in here to give an opinion on Roe v. Wade being overturned without understanding even the basic facts about the laws he’s supporting?

WHOAH IF TRUE!

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 month ago

Don’t know how I missed this on the first read-through, but…

Juniper:

But as for the women who have abortions for other reasons besides those, if they are so “irresponsible,” why would you want such an irresponsible person raising a baby? 

Joaquin’s response?

Because “fuck them”. That’s why.

See, there you go. It always was just about punishing people who have sex.

What.
A.
Douchbag.

Elaine the witch
Elaine the witch
1 month ago

@crip

Oh yeah. This dude wants babies to be abused and die slowly. Because hey, it will tear a woman up to give birth to the thing. After the torture is done though, he wants that thing to die so he doesn’t have to pay for it. Disgusting

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
1 month ago

@Joaquin:

No, that’s PRECISELY the point, i do not force women to “breed” they CHOOSE to have sex, and they CHOOSE with whom (SURPRISE, SURPRISE: they don’t choose ME, i’m SHOCKED).

Ah. Now we get to the quux of the matter — you’re an incel with a nasty case of sour grapes! Explains much, thanks.

Queen of the Harpies
Queen of the Harpies
1 month ago

@Whiny incel troll:
comment image

@Buttercup

Any time a woman has sex, she risks her physical health, her life, being socially shamed and shunned, having her life and career interrupted for eighteen years, poverty, the stigma of being a single mother with no support in a culture that doesn’t actually care about children, except as target practice for angry white misogynists with guns. Men don’t face any of those risks.

What’s happening here is so typical. Joaquin came waltzing in and sucked all the oxygen out of the room with “what about the MEN?” Once again, women get silenced. Once again, a man’s VERY hypothetical and VERY avoidable and relatively tiny problem gets centered, minimizing the reality of women dying, being maimed, being driven out of the public sphere, losing a fundamental right. Every time there’s a serious, life-or-death issue affecting women, some guy shows up with a splinter in his finger and demands that we all drop everything and triage him first.

Hit the nail right on the head. The entire “incel” movement itself is essentially based on “Waaah, I can’t get muh dick wet, I blame evil slutty feminists for all my problems, plus the downfall of society!!!” ;~; And the reaction to this latest blow against personal autonomy that will literally kill and imprison people (just for an extra helping of salt on the wound) is “Serves those dumb sluts right!!! Now why won’t any of these stuck-up bitches date me???” Gee, I wonder

If this thread is going to get derailed, could we at least talk about something real and interesting, like foods we love that no one else eats? (Circus peanuts, for me.)

Circus peanuts are an abomination for sure, but eat what you like. I tend to hate 95% of cheese (it often upsets my stomach for no apparent reason in addition to tasting unpleasant), including what most people would call the “good stuff”, but I enjoy that “fake”, fast food, processed cheese that you usually find on burgers and such. (It can bother my stomach too sometimes, but it’s just completely random.) Maybe because it tends to be milder and not as smelly.

Joaquin
Joaquin
1 month ago

Naaah, this Is PURE gold:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10954353/amp/Women-threaten-SEX-STRIKE-protest-SCOTUS-overturning-Roe-v-Wade.html

It’s litterally THE most funny thing i’ve seen this year.

Joke’s on them: anti-abortion people don’t Sleep around either way, so feminists going on sex strike only affects them and the scumbags they sleep with. Which is EXACTLY what conservatives wanted in the first place: to repress women’s sexuallity.

Priceless!!!

Last edited 1 month ago by Joaquin
Joaquin
Joaquin
1 month ago

@Crip Dyke

Nah bah bah. Don’t you give me that bullshit.

Have sex all you want. In fact, do whatever you want, but if sonething happens, YOU deal with the consecuences.

What if you hit someone with your car? Are you going to say “waaah they punish me for driving!!!”???

You break it, you PAY IT.

Same applies for men. AND for everyone (provided they are ADULTS)

Why Is that SO HARD to understand. How the fuck do you carry your lives without ANY semblance of accountability???

@Elaine the Witch

Ah, so you can have guns, but want to restrict others from having them.

AND you have the gall to call conservatives hypocrites. YOU are the worst hypocrite of all.

Elaine the witch
Elaine the witch
1 month ago

@asshole dumb troll

I never said no one can have guns. I don’t try to restrict them.i said you do whatever you want. You on the other told me to just die since I can’t get pregnant right now without having incredible complications if i do.

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