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Impeachment Acquittal Open Thread

Well, that was depressingly predictable, huh? Let’s hope this grifter has to face a real court — or ten — for some of his (alleged) other crimes, financial and otherwise.

Discuss!

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Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

@Redsilkphoenix
That party is the Democrats.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Redsilkphoenix
They’d never do it. If they did, they’d never win any elections. The party is the party of Trump, whether the GOP likes it or not. They built this monster, and every single one of them is complicit in his rise and reign, regardless of how they voted yesterday. Any GOP legislator acting like they grew a conscience is doing so for optics alone.

TheKnd
TheKnd
1 year ago

@Dalillama

Exactly! That’s what the Lincoln Project is for. To “respectable” the Democrats further to the right. There’s a reason those people focus on Democrats and not the Republicans, they are supposed to get “back on track” (as if Trump was some kind of derailing)

Anonymous
Anonymous
1 year ago

By the way, the state courts won’t do dick either. It’s the same system with the same vested interests in protecting people like Trump. If any justice will come to him, I’d expect it to be of the vigilante variety with all of the nastinessthat can end up unleashing, even if it would be justified.

Nobody said tearing down a corrupt system would be clean, but it sure would be nice if it was at least slightly possible to avoid collateral damage.

Klaaraa
Klaaraa
1 year ago

Quick question, who Here interprets McConnell’s “there is no question, None, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the Events of the day”, as him signalling He still treats/sees Trump as the legitimate current president? Because He didn’t say Ex-President? I don’t know enough about English and the speaking conventions to know what to make of that…

Surplus to Requirements
Surplus to Requirements
1 year ago

I’d just like to remind the pessimists here that other wealthy and powerful men have seen the insides of jail cells — Epstein and Weinstein, for two recent examples. OK, both were egregious perverts, but so is Trump …

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Klaaraa
I didn’t read it that way at first, but now that you mention it, it might be. The main takeaway I got from Mitch’s statement was that he is as spineless as ever, seeing as he admitted he knew what Trump did was wrong, yet still voted to acquit.

Gwynfydd
Gwynfydd
1 year ago

@Surplus to Requirements

Boris isn’t just mishandling the virus, he’s engaging in Nazi-esque eugenics:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/13/new-do-not-resuscitate-orders-imposed-on-covid-19-patients-with-learning-difficulties

Stop the world, I want to get off.

I read about this today and feel so very furious and saddened. I work in the UK in day services for adults with disabilities. We are a drop in the ocean really, and so many of the families and other services we’re in contact with have little beyond us. Some people have hardly left their house since March last year.

So many people in this sector are very alone and this is indeed eugenics.

I feel pretty depressed to about the impeachment results but not surprised at all. Feeling for you all there in the US, but we’re not doing much better over here.

Last edited 1 year ago by Gwynfydd
rabid rabbit
rabid rabbit
1 year ago

@Klaaraa:

It’s just part of the weird monarchizing of the US Presidency — once someone’s held the role, they get called it forever. During the campaign, Biden’s team kept going on about what the Vice-President was going to be doing that day, even though he wasn’t the VP, Mike Pence was. You’re still expected to say “Mr. President” to Obama. It’s strange.

Last edited 1 year ago by rabid rabbit
Snowberry
Snowberry
1 year ago

I didn’t watch the Senate Trial this time because I was too busy having fun in the snow to deal with that nonsense.

But based on what I read about it after, it seems to me like the defense was all “Actions don’t matter, only motives! Here are some implausible motives which portray Trump as an innocent angel and the House Managers and a bunch of random unconnected liberal politicians and celebrities as Satan. We will now keep repeating it loudly to hypnotize you into believing it.” Which is more or less how a lot of conservative media works these days.

@Naglfar:

The main takeaway I got from Mitch’s statement was that he is as spineless as ever,

Worse. For a lot of Republicans, it’s genuinely cowardice, but it Mitch’s case, it’s chutzpah, which has been his modus operandi for pretty much his entire political career.

“I guess I can’t overlook it this time, so I’m open to convicting him.” (Obstructs and delays Senate trial) “Nope, I’ll be acquitting instead.” (After trial) “If the trial had happened earlier, I would have voted to convict, but alas, it is too late. Blame the Democrats.”

numerobis
numerobis
1 year ago

rabid rabbit: you don’t call the abdicated monarch by their royal title though. The US (and maybe elsewhere) has a tradition though of giving the honorific for the highest office someone has ever achieved in life — both civilian and military. Unlike in German though you only get one honorific.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
1 year ago

@Gwynfydd
I work for a small CIC run by and for autistic people (we’re new I’m very part-time, and it’s enough for me), and have a lot to do with our local adult autism service as a service user, because of that I know a fair number of people with learning difficulties; my first reaction to that Guardian article was ‘you touch my friends, you die’. I just don’t understand why people hate disable people so much they’d take away the choice to resuscitate.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

@North Sea Sparkly Dragon
I am autistic and have End-Stage Renal Disease, and what’s almost as distressing as the politicians that are trying to kill me are the supposed friends and family that dismiss those efforts or even support them.

When my paternal grandfather died three years ago, I had a lot of trouble processing it because this man who claimed to love me had spent the last ten years of his life voting for me to die.

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meani
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meani
1 year ago

@ North Sea Sparkly Dragon,

Perhaps (as something I read once years ago put it) it’s because the disabled are the one minority group around that anyone can suddenly find themselves in whether they like it or not. And some people really can’t handle the idea of themselves at someone else’s mercy, depending on them to do even basic bodily functions. And so they eliminate the folks who are already disabled to avoid being reminded that they too can wind up like that.

Far from the only reason to think killing disabled folk is better for everyone (including the disabled themselves; better to be dead than live life ‘broken’ is the idea there) obviously, but a major strain of unconscious thought that goes into such thinking, I think.

Gwynfydd
Gwynfydd
1 year ago

@North Sea Sparkly Dragon

I work for a small CIC run by and for autistic people (we’re new I’m very part-time, and it’s enough for me), and have a lot to do with our local adult autism service as a service user, because of that I know a fair number of people with learning difficulties; my first reaction to that Guardian article was ‘you touch my friends, you die’. I just don’t understand why people hate disable people so much they’d take away the choice to resuscitate.

Those services sound great. Our service has been delivering support non-stop since March – and we have been providing a massive amount of remote home support for those too vulnerable to attend the critical service. And we have followed utterly rigorous COVID procedures, and not had one case to our credit. And I totally feel what you feel above with a passion.

@Allandrel

I am autistic and have End-Stage Renal Disease, and what’s almost as distressing as the politicians that are trying to kill me are the supposed friends and family that dismiss those efforts or even support them.

Yeah it’s that dismissal of people, people, that really gets to me so much right now with all of this. It’s beyond dehumanising.

@Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meani

Perhaps (as something I read once years ago put it) it’s because the disabled are the one minority group around that anyone can suddenly find themselves in whether they like it or not.

Agreed yeah, we could all be in that situation. One woman I used to support had what’s called an acquired disability from a head injury. There is really something in all of it about the rejection of human vulnerability maybe? The rejection of the possibility that we are all dependent on each other in reality.

Joekster
Joekster
1 year ago

Seven Republican Senators voted to convict. That’s five more than I expected, to be honest.

The bar to convict in a US impeachment is so high that it’s a paper tiger when applied to a President- anyone who gets elected will have the support of at least a third of the Senators- anyone who doesn’t have at least that much popular support wouldn’t be elected in the first place.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 year ago

Sorry for bringing up the old thread, but I didn’t feel this would be best posted on the RIP thread, and the fact that this last open thread is about an acquittal is rather appropriate, anyway…

Judge finds Toronto van attack killer guilty of murder
The judge completely threw out the defence’s attempt to consider him not criminally liable due to autism, and found him guilty of 10 counts of murder and 16 counts of attempted murder:

In rendering her decision, which was broadcast on YouTube Wednesday morning, Justice Anne Molloy said [the killer]’s rampage was “the act of a reasoning mind,” and noted that the 28 year old has “no remorse for it and no empathy for his victims.”

“He freely chose the option that was morally wrong, knowing what the consequences would be for himself, and for everybody else,” Molloy said in her decision. “It does not matter that he does not have remorse, nor empathize with the victims.

“Lack of empathy for the suffering of victims, even an incapacity to empathize for whatever reason, does not constitute a defence.”

In a final slap, the judge listed the names and conditions of every victim in the ruling, including all the injured survivors… but did not list the name of the defendent in her ruling, instead just listing him as ‘John Doe’, due to noting that notoriety appeared to have been one of the driving forces behind his actions. Indeed, the judge also noted that the entire ‘incel’ connection may have been added in the defendant’s talks with the police just to increase the notoriety.

Needless to say, the Ontario Autism Coalition is very relieved at the judge’s firm stance on this.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Jenora Feuer
That’s good to hear. I was genuinely worried about the societal impact of him being ruled not guilty due to autism.

Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ jenora

I’ve now had an opportunity to read the entire judgment.

the judge also noted that the entire ‘incel’ connection may have been added in the defendant’s talks with the police just to increase the notoriety.

Yeah; that aspect is quite disturbing. From the interviews, and his history, it seems clear he just wanted fame and notoriety. Reminds me a lot of Mark Chapman. But it appears he’d been wanting to do something like this long before he’d even heard of incels and he just adopted that label because it gave him the best chance of making the headlines.

Did you see that it transpired, all the history he gave about how he’d come to hate women, were proven just to be taken from Elliot Roger’s biography?

That seems to be another aspect of radicalisation. Where people are less interested in the underlying ideology, and just use the ’cause’ as an excuse for violence they wished to commit anyway.

It does highlight though the additional dangers of online incel activity; and of course it makes no difference to his victims. They’re still murdered.

The judgement doesn’t mention sentence. Presumably that will be listed later. I know there’s the mandatory life sentence and 25 year tariff. But is that the only sentence available; or can the judge impose a higher tariff do you know?

Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ rabid rabbit

Thanks for that. I’m still a bit confused though. It seems that a life sentence effectively trumps an indeterminate sentence; insofar as it is in itself an indeterminate sentence but one where they can’t consider parole for 25 years rather than 7.

So what I’m wondering is if the judge could extend the 25 year tariff; say for example by saying can’t consider parole for 40 years. Or even a whole life tariff, i.e. can never be released.

ETA: Funnily enough I nearly wrote about what you’e just ETA’d. It’s the same here, the ECHR ruled whole life sentences unlawful. The idea being that even the most heinous offenders have to have the hope of release one day. The courts still impose whole life tariffs though; but in the knowledge that at some stage the offender may be able to apply for parole. Although it is unlikely the parole board would entertain an application until some time after the regular tariffs would have applied.

Last edited 1 year ago by Alan Robertshaw
GSS ex-noob
GSS ex-noob
1 year ago

Regarding parole chances, Charles Manson applied a lot of times, as was his legal right, and was rejected every time.

About the Ontario case, that’s good news. Being autistic doesn’t keep you from knowing right from wrong, nor legal from illegal.

Also, the judge deserves all the plaudits for not naming him. Rot in prison in anonymity, murderer.

rabid rabbit
rabid rabbit
1 year ago

@alan:

I added a post with some more details, but I guess there were too many links in it, as it’s being held for approval. It will presumably show up at some point.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 year ago

@Alan:
I hadn’t been paying close enough attention to the trial to see that as it happened, no. But from the other things I’ve heard, it isn’t surprising.

That even explains why he ‘let himself be talked down’ by the police afterward. He wanted to get his story out, probably feel smug about sending everybody on wild goose chases, and enjoy his notoriety.

rabid rabbit has already explained about the ‘dangerous offender’ designation. It is rather deliberately not a common or easy thing, for exactly the sorts of human rights issues you mention. But as GSS ex-noob notes, just being eligible for parole doesn’t mean you’re going to get it, and the ‘dangerous offender’ designation makes getting parole a lot more difficult.

Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ jenora & rabid rabbit

We had a flirtation here with something called “IPPs” (imprisonment for public protection).

It was in effect a life sentence with a specific tariff. Thats how all our life sentences work. You rarely stay inside for life. You do a number of years called the tariff then you can apply for parole.

But IPPs all hinged on something called ‘dangerousness’. If a person was found to be ‘dangerous’ in the legal sense, then they’d get an IPP rather than a normal fixed term sentence. As you can imagine it was all a bit subjective.

There were also some mandatory IPPs. If you committed a second scheduled offence as an adult you got an IPP. I had a case where a girl just turned 18 committed a robbery. Her previous robbery conviction was as a young offender. So that time she got a referral order i.e. few hours with a probation officer and writing a letter of apology. A few months later, same offence, life sentence. Quite a jump. Although the judge set the tariff at something like 6 weeks. She’s still technically a life prisoner though, so even a traffic offence and she could be recalled to prison.

IPPs have gone now; they’re not really missed by anyone.

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