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By David Futrelle
So yeah, I’m going to be on Matt Binder’s podcast talking about, you know, all the sort of shit I write about on this blog. If you’re not a regular listener, you may remember Matt as the guy who sort of demolished Paul Elam in a YouTube debate a couple of years back.
Anyway, here’s the info on the podcast (though the “tomorrow” in the tweet is now today), and if you miss it LIVE you can watch/listen to it later as well:
tomorrow @ 1pm ET, i'm hosting a livestream episode of DOOMED with guest @DavidFutrelle! we'll be talking MRAs, incels, & an array of other misogynists!
subscribe to the channel here: https://t.co/xNIt3mv7in
made possible by support on the patreon here: https://t.co/5q6tD5J0Tf
— Matt Binder (@MattBinder) May 4, 2018
Hi Pug.
I hadn’t seen any of your previous comments when I replied to you. I assumed you were writing in good faith, with a real desire to learn more about the views of people who read this blog.
Did you fool me? Did you persuade me to reply as if a genuine dialogue and learning experience were possible? Were you all the time only interested in finding ways to catch people out, to score rhetorical points?
If so, I don’t care. That just makes you background noise. I’ve tried before to reach out to people who turned out to be unreachable and it hasn’t changed my approach. (Others assume trolls unless proven otherwise and that’s an approach I respect.)
If you are indeed genuine, then please try hard to prove it by showing you’re listening and engaging with others.
As with many things in life, the ball is in your court.
What is it with sad boner trolls and their rock solid conviction that every feminist space should dedicate itself to giving men dating or hook up advice.
No, Pug. Mocking misogyny is not a privilege contingent on providing alternate support groups for lonely men.
Maybe you’re lonely because you have the expectation that the whole world should revolve around you and people don’t really like being around people like that? Just a thought.
We’ve stated again and again that David only mocks misogynists. Not men in general. Not non-misogynist men who simply lonely. If you see yourself in the men that David mocks, perhaps the problem is not this blog. Perhaps the problem is you. Because most men don’t see virulent misogynists being criticized and mocked and take it personally. Most men think these people are ridiculous too.
Given that in the other thread he said black people should befriend KKK members and show them compassion, I’m not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt either.
More to the point, if this blog is so “pointless,” why is Pug here?
Tashilicious,
Sometimes there’s a weird glitch where posts just disappear into thin air. If you copypaste, the same thing will happen. Try copying and pasting but then adding in a new sentence at the top post like “trying again, the last post disappeared.”
If it went into moderation, you might have accidentally typed your usual name wrong. Or perhaps you quoted someone using a slur and it got caught in the filter?
Of topic: Coming from an inclusive theatreplay right now (only as watcher), was fun.
And more of the alley, there was work about a conservative network, read the report about it here:
https://www.epfweb.org/sites/epfweb.org/files/rtno_epf_book_lores.pdf
Should say it was an european network, found out about it in an article in the TAZ (a German Newspaper)
First, your three questions
You’re right that this blog doesn’t help people that have been pulled into the Incel orbital system. That’s not what it’s about, though; it’s not here to help them. This site is primarily about providing a relief valve and support group for the targets of their hate.
Y’know, women. Those targets.
Ever heard the phrase, “laugh about it to keep from crying?” That’s what’s going on here.
Like, the previous article was about a guy writing about how great it is to stalk women and girls to terrify them with the threat of rape. How fun it is, and how harmless it is.
Perhaps you boggle at how evil that is? I suspect you might.
Likely the majority of us just sort of get a tired glaze over our eyes at that story, because it ain’t new. Just part of the daily routine. We laugh at it and tease about it because we’re sick and tired of being afraid or angry.
You want to take that from us? Molon fucking labe. “Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”
This blog also serves to raise awareness of these hateful people. David often writes serious articles; those articles are important, and are the reason he’s now considered an expert on these horrible groups.
A good question! Society absolutely does pressure men to be sexual conquerors, and hurts him if he can’t at least pretend. (Though, Patriarchy allows him to cover for that with other sorts of success. Still. That’s beside the point.)
I’d tell him that the heart of his issue is the same system that hurts everyone else. That he’s been told a lie his entire life, and he’s been brought up to believe things that are just wrong – just like everyone else has.
And then I’d tell him that relationships don’t cure any of that; they’re certainly not a cure for depression. That he’s gotta get over that hill before he can climb the next. There are piles of counseling services, depression support groups, etc, out there. I’d try to help him find one local, because depression support groups really need that human contact part of them to be functional.
But most of these guys don’t want to hear that they need to fix themselves first, that the problem isn’t about dating. Because they want to externalize the problem, and – guess what – they’ve already primed themselves to believe that the problem is women won’t date me.
Patriarchy sucks.
Another great question! You make good points here, but you’re missing something, mostly about how words work and change.
It’s true that for many people “feminist” just means “women who hate men.” We can say “no, that’s not true” because there are a lot of us. We have the mass and voice to contest that definition as a social group. If we were some small niche we wouldn’t be in a position to confront the popular (and wrong) definition ’cause there wouldn’t be enough of us to do it. At that point, we could still try to reclaim the word, but we’d have to go into every conversation knowing that the common use of the word isn’t what we want, and then deal with that.
Your situation is different from both of those. “Men’s Rights Organization” and “Incels” are labels owned by groups – and you’re claiming that your group should have those labels. You’re representing the larger super-groups of “organizations who represent men” and “anyone who wants to have sex but isn’t getting any” and are claiming that those groups deserve the labels.
But those aren’t coherent social groups. They have no unified social purposes or goals. MRAs and Incels do, and they’re the ones using the term, and they have the social mass to keep those terms.
It doesn’t matter what you think the words should mean to society, what matters is what they do mean and whether you’re in a position to change that.
You’re a guy standing in the middle of the Charlottesville Alt-Right March/Riot, getting angry at being called a Nazi. You’re standing under their flag, dude! There it is, right there! The Confederate flag isn’t about history or southern pride, it’s f’n slavery! That guy beside you is wearing a white supremacist arm-band! Get out of there!
Words are messy. You can’t just look at the dictionary definition of a word to apply it. Incels are a hate group. Ditch the term, or get enough people on your side to wrestle it out of the hands of those people. What you’re doing here is just choosing the course of action which lets you stay angry at us.
Your follow-up from the questions
Yep, we know. Some of them even post here!
ahem
You’re using their name, my duck. And coming onto a feminist forum, telling us how evil we are for not being nice to them as they fantasize about throwing acid on our faces.
You come here telling us that “not all incels are like that,” while you’re using the term Incels in your own questions, unadorned to talk about those murder-fantasists, knowing that we would understand the group you were talking about.
You know the term refers to that group. You use it that way.
At the same time you’ve been arguing that the term refers to anyone who’s celibate but would rather not be.
You aren’t making excuses for them, you’re providing cover. Whether you intend to or not.
Given how you waded in here? I don’t think you’ve looked very hard.
This isn’t a men’s support group; men hold the power as a group in this patriarchal system so expecting women to help or even do more than shrug is asking the victim to help the abuser. Even so, we do talk about male problems, the sort of things that might help them, etc.
Maybe if you came here with the intention of listening instead of shouting you might have picked up on that. It’s absolutely here. Both in the articles and in the comments. It just doesn’t tend to come up at the same time as discussing the murders and harassment that misogynists commit, because tut-tutting about the hard life of the abuser while the victims are still in need is a little, uh, gauche.
Gosh, that strawman sure did get demolished.
I’m over here, though.
Incel is a coherent, vocal group featuring misogyny and entitlement. Because the vast majority of people who use that term belong to that group. People who are just lonely don’t call themselves Incel, they call themselves lonely.
You’re choosing to use “Incel” to describe yourself. You could choose another word, you know. Like, even, as an aside here – there’s something inherently misogynistic about the word itself. “Involuntary” Celibacy. Casts the celibacy as a punishment, like Involuntary Confinement. And the only group that could possibly enforce that punishment is women – mean, nasty women who are too stuck up to give the poor guy a shot.
I know you don’t mean it that way, but that’s an implication of the words chosen. Something involuntarily happening to you that you don’t like is a punishment.
You could choose another word and avoid all this, you know. There are good ones. You used some. Or you could stay up on that cross, I’m sure the view is lovely.
No you didn’t.
See, we can go back and read your first comment. You came here with the opinion that we’re a man-hater’s club, and what’s more, you came here with the opinion that we were so set in our misandristic ways that we couldn’t have our mind changed. But now that we’re actually having a discussion, you want to seem like you’re the reasonable one and we’re the ones being angry, so you edit that out.
You came in here already primed and ready to call us evil, irrational, and mean – of course we’re gonna call you a troll. ’cause you’re being a jerk.
I’ll have some questions for you shortly. I hope you answer them.
Shorter pug=
What about teh menz!!!
Pug likes to write but he doesn’t care to read. Cause if he did, he would know where to take his bullshit argument.
@Scild
Total, jaw dropped admiration.
#notallincels
Oh gosh yes, sure looks polite and rational to me. /s
Answer now my questions three, else the banhammer ye see
Question One
You’ve pointed out in great detail how much compassion you have, and how important it is to have compassion. How you empathize with the men trapped in the Incel world in the same way as you empathize with terrorists who feel trapped with violence being the only way out.
Why is it that your empathy doesn’t also extend to the people that the incels are targeting with their hate, abuse, and violence? You know, us? Because if you claim that you feel empathy for us, you sure as heck haven’t showed it, and compassion that isn’t visible isn’t compassion at all.
They wish murder and mutilation on us. We just point at the things they say and mock them. Why do you think the former deserves empathy and the latter deserves condemnation?
You showed up here, angry and full of opinions on how awful we are – an arrival you’ve tried to recast as “rational and polite” now that we’re talking. Why? Why did you assume that they deserved empathy and we didn’t?
Question Two
We’ve spent a lot of this argument on semantics- whether words mean their dictionary definition or whether they have more complexity to them. But you know you’re wrong here. You use the word “Incels” to refer to that misogynistic band of hatred, you know it’s the functional description for that group. You use the term “reddit/incel” in places as if to make some sort of greater clarity, but that makes it worse – “Incels Without Hate” is on reddit, and you’re throwing them in with the hateful group, even though the Incels have been thrown off of reddit! Calling them “reddit/incels” just muddies the water.
You know you’re wrong on this, your word choices give you away. The moment we stop talking about the semantics of the words, you use them in the common way.
Question two is: can we drop the stupid semantics argument already? You know we aren’t talking about all-people-who-aren’t-having-sex-but-would-like-to when we talk about Incels, you know we aren’t talking about all-groups-that-support-men when we talk about MRAs.
Question Three
I’m just gonna point you to WWTH’s excellent question for number three:
To clarify and save you having to dig through the old thread for context: Incels, the hate-group, are all men. Why haven’t women set up an equivalent group about hating men? Why’s Incel just for men, when women can be lonely too?
(Hint: Incel isn’t about not-having-sex)
Please consider answering these questions. They’re good questions, both for you and for the conversation in general.
awh thank you Shadowplay <3
General question – on topic too! –
How’d the podcast go? Or am I screw up time zones again?
Edit:
@Scild – I always get a mental image of you slowly and deliberately taking off a pair of gloves then cracking your knuckles before you type these answers. 🙂
Podcast is currently on!
And that’s probably an appropriate mental image 😉
from the live comment feed
Because all brown guys look alike?
Binder looks nothing like Roosh. Not even remotely.
@Pug
As a man I find you whiny and annoying. As others have said your questions were answered in the other thread but you pretend they weren’t, so I find you whiny and a discussion partner of poor quality. Relatedly I note you used the word misandry with things pointing to subsets of men in the previous post. You’re giving people no reason to want to respond beyond posts aimed at the audience instead of you.
But also as others have said this place role-moldels for others and spreads information which answers your #1. That’s the point. Like it or not incels are spreading awfulness and violence with respect to women and the site is about pointing it out and refusing to be respectful towards them. Don’t like it? Don’t want to feel associated with that?Pick a new name and organize with that. As a man it looks like you would rather tolerate shitty behavior in your social associations and want others to stop pointing them out which is a weakness I don’t let slide without shaming of people like you.
Per your #2 It’s not this David’s or the commentators job to #notalllonelymen when discussing incels that have awful behavior. If you don’t like people with such behavior associated with you that’s your problem to deal with and your work to organize a social space to deal with instead of trying to change this one to suit your needs so it comes up in a Google search of all things. I feel no desire associate with the label of incel as a man who wants sex and find your language sensitivity childish to say the least. Problematic political associations is a thing you should have the basic human maturity to recognize and deal with. Shunning of the worst elements of ones percieved in-group bto show disapproval is as rational and natural as women and female people shunning them out of a sense of self-preservation.
It is also not David’s or the commentators job to provide sympathy or help to #notalllonelymen and I say that as a man that could fit into a tangentally related category. This place supports a different part of the broader social problem and I choose to help it without feeling threatened by the bad associations that WE SHOULD FEEL AS MEN. Guess who the incels are more likely to respond to? Us, fellow men refusing to accept their bullshit. We have in-group advantage and it’s our job to work on them, not the people the they socially foment hate and violence towards (separate social component from social shunning of the group with bad behavior, done by separate men. I’m unapologetically in the shaming wing).
The people here don’t have to do shit for you and in fact making women and other female people do work for others is a part of the problem I refuse to enable.
Per your #3 it’s also not the job of people here to educate you on feminism 101 related things as such education is not part of this space. If people here choose to be nice and educate you be polite and actually interact with the substance of their replies (they’re still giving you a chance despite less politeness so you can turn this around if you choose to). If you continue to avoid substantive responses to them you get what you deserve and the men here won’t come to your rescue, we’re more likely to join in because that’s part of what this social space is all about.
listening now. so you guys bring up the fact that Elam isn’t biting the alt right/white nationalist bait like Molyneux. Elam and AVfM were the ones who, which I posted earlier elsewhere, were accusing white women feminists of racism for supposedly being the demographic least likely to date/marry outside of race, statistically. those posts and comments were head-scratchers. never quite got the point they were trying to make considering so much of their other rhetoric was about their “own women” rejecting them, doing them wrong, divorcing them, etc.
Yep! Here’s my recommends. Notice the Ted Bundy one. (!!!???)
LOL @ “Chad Thundercock”. I remember Dalrock and his posse had some pretty hilarious names for what they conceived were the “alpha f*cks” wives were cuckolding their “beta bucks” husbands with.
I think one was Chad McJock or McAlphacock or something. And then Obsidian had his Miss Ann and Tyrone. Ahhh the manosphere, the gift that keeps on giving.
from the comment feed;
And there are Indian incels saying the same thing despite that women had the vote in India from Day 1 of the formation of the country i.e. it was never up for debate. And its not like Indian women need any less right than they already have FFS! Consider the sex selective abortions (happened in my extended family, she was literally forced by her in-laws to get a sonogram to determine sex and then abort because female, happens all the time) and arranged marriages, forced living with in-laws and other factors that work against Indian women and in favor of men.
epitome of privilege
telling women, the targets of terrorist acts by incels, that we should be MORE COMPASSIONATE.
go
fuck
yourself
Pug
end of story.
And yes, if you are calling yourself incel, you’re a piece of shit for
intentionally aligning yourself with them. I don’t associate myself with the KKK because I’m interested in the history of my southern roots.
David, Matt just explained how white supremacists are out engaging in the world socially and it’s likely that most of us are working alongside at least one on the job. But with incels they don’t get out and interact, they remain isolated in their rooms, online with their incel communities only.
I don’t know where he’s getting this idea from? What makes him think incels aren’t also on the job and right alongside us in the social and work sphere? Ellen Pao recently tweeted
Just finished up the podcast and came here to post that and, yow, what happened? (Well, even without reading all of this I’m pretty sure what happened.) Anyway, you can see/hear a replay of the podcast by going to mattbinder.tv (which will get you to Matt’s youtube page).
And I’ll catch up on this thread as soon as I can.
Can someone please post some non-YouTube links – ideally something that I can put into podcast manager / podcatcher type software?
I’m in a rush right now or I’d do it myself.
Pug.
To your second question, if you’re actually interested in getting advice about dating and not just playing Gotcha, I would send you over to the Dr Nerdlove blog. He’s been writing this week about incels, as well, but you can look up advice in the archives, and you can send in your own questions, too.
http://www.doctornerdlove.com