Program Note: I will be on Matt Binder’s DOOMED podcast today (Saturday) at 1 PM eastern

Here are my questions that I will ask again, as when I asked them before they were drowned out by ad hominem and dog piling (which is banned by the comments guidelines, but oh well)

First, let me make this clear: the misogynistic behavior of the reddit/incels, MGTOW, etc are NOT defendable. I am NOT defending their attitudes and behavior and think that sort of thing is disgusting.

Also, yes, it is VERY difficult for women in society and they have issues that I as a man do not face. I am NOT denying that. I don’t have to worry about getting raped on my way to the car, and if a weirdo starts talking to me at the bus stop, I can walk away without fear of them turning pyshco. I don’t have people of the opposite gender trying to legislate my reproductive rights. I agree. Sexism in society is real.

I don’t like the term “male privilege” because being able to go through life without the fears women today face should NOT be a privilege.

And yes, the victims of those two buffoons who came out of reddit/incel did nothing wrong. My absolute sympathy is for their victims. Those “men” were horrible subhumans.

I am simple trying to ask three questions and would like honest answers and please, no name calling or cries of “trolly troll troll troll” that simply make YOU look foolish. With that, I will, against my better judgement, attempt to engage with you in actual constructive dialogue with no insults thrown at anyone who answers (from me at least)

Question 1:
What is the point of this blog? I mean, yes, people who post on those incel blogs act awful. But do you know who else acts awful? Gang bangers. They go out and commit the worst crimes and are a lot WORSE for women and society as a whole than 99.9% of incels who simply type hateful things about women.
Yet, people CORRECTLY point out that many people in the gang lifestyle were suckered in and found there way there because of many issues in their lives. So just having a blog dedicated to saying mean things about gangsters would probably not be a very good way of stopping or changing them, or even raising awareness about them. There is a complex set of issues that put their feet on the road to that lifestyle, even if they ultimately choose to walk it. But here, it is so simplistic and childish.
How is just making fun of incels going to do anything?

Question 2: What would you say to a male who didn’t hate women and did not post on those forums, but just felt absolutely inadequate about not being able to find love? I mean, if a man googles “I am depressed because I can’t find a girlfriend”, it would most likely lead him to a PUA site or a Incel board or something.
If they somehow ended up talking to YOU, what would you say? What would you say to a man who couldn’t find a date, felt he was unattractive, and was all around depressed and feeling like less than dirt?
Thing is, society pressures men to be “sexual conquerors,” and I don’t think anyone can deny that. Men who “can’t get laid” have no value in society and are mocked and ridiculed. Quiet, introverted men are scorned by men and women alike.
So, if not that awful Incel board…what alternative is there for such men? What would YOU tell such a man?

Question 3:
Names. If I had a nickle for every feminists who said “feminism is just about equality…just look it up in the dictionary!” I would be able to bribe Trump to leave office.
But the thing is, feminists themselves want to change the definition of everything.
Example: I got in contact with a Men’s Rights Organization called 1in6 for male survivors of childhood sexual abuse (link: https://1in6.org/ )…and the feminists on this board insist it is not a Men’s Rights Organization when it clearly is. It says in their mission statement: “The mission of 1in6 is to help men who have had unwanted or abusive sexual experiences live healthier, happier lives.”
By the same dictionary that feminists tell me to look up feminism in, we see that they clearly are a MEN’S RIGHTS ORGANIZATION. They are an ORGANIZATION working for the RIGHTS of MEN to get help from childhood sexual abuse.
Do they use that exact phrase in their description? No. But Trump never describes himself as a racist either. His actions speak louder than his works.
As for involuntary celibacy, it is the same issue: it means being CELIBATE INVOLUNTARILY. How is that, in and of itself, make someone a “woman hater”? Plenty of women are also involuntarily celibate.
If I can’t say “feminism is just hatred of men,” because of the dictionary, than you also have to concede that 1in6 is a men’s rights organization and that involuntarily celibacy, in and of itself, is not really an issue.

Also, I want to point this out:

Plenty of men have trouble with relationships, but they look at forums like reddit/incel with the same disgust that I do. I may have compassion for those people posting on reddit/incell for being trapped in their own hatred the same way I feel compassion for gangmembers and drug addicts, but that does not mean I excuse their behavior. Compassion is NOT THE SAME as making excuses.
I also feel compassion for the suicide bomber who grew up starving in Gaza and sees no future and hence would easily blow himself up, but I do not have any sympathy for the act of terrorism.
If someone is so messed up in their head that all they can do is post endlessly about hating women…that person is NOT happy and there is probably some underlining issue there.
And I also have compassion for my Mom who molested me. Yes, what she did was awful. However, I cannot overlook her issues with alcohol and mental health that ended up killing her.

But for the MAJORITY OF MEN WHO HAVE DIFFICULTY with socialization…they are not a problem, and they don’t post on those boards. Yet, I have yet to come across a single shred of compassion for those men who just have actual social issues (which goes back to question 2)
I have issues with intimacy as well…when ones first sexual experience is ones drunken mother forcing herself on you at age nine, that kinda is going to happen. I stumbled across reddit/incel years ago and found them to be awful and just absurd. I am NOT with them.

But does my “involuntary celibacy” or “involuntary loneliness” also mean I am less than dirt? Because this site does NOTHING to differentiate between men who are simply lonely and men who are on those awful forums, that is a conclusion that can and does easily get drawn.

Anyway, I have a distinct feeling I will just have insults thrown at me and no one will actually try any reasonable dialogue. But who knows?

@ Nequam

There are so called “Men’s Rights Activists” who do NOTHING for men but simply hate women and Women’s Liberation. You just gifted them with a perfect screen shot that makes their “points” for them.

Why say something like that? Why dehumanize someone who may disagree with you on some points but does agree on the larger issue that society treats women as second-class citizens and that treatment is wrong? If something as simple as meaningful dialogue with someone as close to many of your positions as I am is impossible, how do you expect to win real social justice for society as a whole?

And after that comment, who appears to be a “troll” here, me or you?
I say that as feedback to your words and NOT an insult to you personally. I believe in repaying scorn with kindness and I know you and most of the users of this board are indeed capable of real thoughtful conversation if they are so inclined.

@misophistry

Thank you for your reply.

First, I do not see anything on this site that differentiates between men with social issues and those who post on “reddit/incell”. Could you please provide a link to back up that statement? I will correct myself if that is proven wrong.

Second, “I would say nothing” is odd. So if a man in your life were to talk about his issues with feeling inadequate, you would answer with silence? If not, what would be the “feminist response” to such a question? (I use quote because I know not all feminists think alike.)

3, it was a simple question that was framed and had examples provided. If “feminism is simply the believe that women are equal because it says so in the dictionary,” then wouldn’t all groups working to help also be called “men’s rights organizations”?

And I do not see what I said in my questions that was sexist, mean-spirited, or hateful. I even made sure to make it clear I sympathize with a lot of what you are saying and I am not in favor or online misogyny.

I am here to see if I can have a dialogue with people I disagree with on a few issues in a polite, rational manner. But I admit, after hearing people call me “troll” and “insect” when I simply tried to be polite and ask a few questions, I am wondering if perhaps this board may have its own issues.

@Pug

1) You’re starting from a false premise here. This blog is not just about incels, it covers the whole manosphere and certain aspects of Trumpism as well. There is certainly a lot of mocking, but that’s after the deep digs into the manosphere that David does, finding and examining the beliefs of MRAs, PUAs, incels, MGTOW etc. So you’re asking what the point of the blog is, based on two faulty assumptions, firstly that it’s about incels and secondly that it’s only about mocking. If you’re going to argue that a blog is pointless, you need to demonstrate a solid understanding of its purpose.

Your concern about gang-related crime is admirable, but sounds like whataboutism. Maybe you are genuinely engaged with this issue, rather than using it as a rhetorical device to try to change the subject, but the onus is then on you to demonstrate your deep engagement with the issues of gang-related crime and its relevance to this blog.

As for your point about the value of mocking gang members for their beliefs, I’m not aware of a concerted online culture that attempts to mainstream gang thinking and radicalise gang members online. I’m sure there are videos and forums and Facebook groups that promote gang membership, but they are reflections of gang activity, not the core of it. The manosphere mostly gathers and develops online, so exposing it online makes perfect sense.

2) I talk to men like this quite a lot, actually. What I say to them depends on the individual, so I can’t give a simple prescription here. However, very often it starts off by pointing out the logical flaws in what they say about themselves and the world. I might then give advice that includes exercise, self-reflection, changing life circumstances, therapy, self-improvement, getting rid of unhelpful attitudes etc.

I would agree with you that men like this are ill-served for places to find help. One consequence of toxic masculinity is that men are expected to not express many normal feelings and that men do not learn to support each other emotionally. The rise in the incel movement can be partly explained by the fact that they address male depression – in a vile, dangerous and twisted way, of course, but they do provide a space where men can express strongly negative emotions about themselves and not be shamed for weakness.

3) Personally, I would concede that that ‘just look it up in the dictionary’ is not a great argument when it comes to judging a movement, so that’s not a line I would use myself when talking about feminism or anything else. When we refer to the Men’s Rights movement here, we are talking about a particular political approach, rather than any group which helps men. For example, a group devoted to stopping the practice of ‘stop and search’ which disproportionately affects men (young black men) would be fighting for Men’s Rights but it would not be helpful to call it a Men’s Rights group because that name refers to something else.

Finally, I can tell that you are hurting a great deal inside. However, I’m not sure this comment section is a great place for you to work through your issues. That’s not judgemental of you or comments here, they’re just not a good match. If you want to continue this discussion elsewhere, feel free to leave a throwaway email address or reddit username or some other way of getting in touch with you. I’d be happy to talk with you elsewhere.

@Pug

Furthering what Jo said regarding your question 1, and to correct a misapprehension you seem to be under:

– set aside a few hours.
– go to the sidebar and look for the drop down box called “Old Crap.”
– go as far back as you feel like and start reading. Far as I recall, incels don’t even get mentioned here much before yon Rodger asshole killed folk because he were an entitled little shit.

This will show you two things – the blog doesn’t exist to mock incels but to track and mock ALL forms of rampant misogyny, and that there is a need for these fools to be mocked. Nothing punctures pretension like laughter, and their “justifications” for their crap are often funny.

Regarding the compassion/excuses thing – while I do agree with you, I’m not being threatened with death by these tools for merely existing though. So I’m not going to disrespect the people here who don’t. Might want to think on that some, too. If someone says they want you dead – it’s wise to assume they mean it.

Pug
I was tempted to reply to you but I’m not a regular commenter here and others have said pretty much what I’d have said anyway.
After my husband cheated on me and left me ten years ago I was unable to find a partner for many years. I was depressed and miserable. Sure there were men on dating sites who wanted casual sex but I didn’t. I could write a book about the awful experiences with awful men on dating sites. I had nowhere really to go to look for support other than the awesome captain awkward who did actually help. Lucky I found her.

I did meet someone eventually but far from perfect: I had to significantly change my attitude and behaviour and my expectations. Maybe someone online CAN help men without all the nastiness. I found a couple of men who offer advice to women that is sensible: Evan Mark Katz and Matthew Hussey. All the rest take the harmful stereotypes about men and women and run with them and want to charge you for the privilege!

You really are in the wrong place imo. Try xyonline.net or somewhere similar. Or ask for advice from people who actually are in a happy relationship. I’d be happy to discuss things further with you elsewhere also, but I’m not sure here is the right place

@Dalillama

Yeah, I thought about addressing the racial issue there, but my comment was already too long. Gang-related violence is also rather specific to certain geographical areas, whereas misogyny is a problem almost everywhere, but if I had listed every way in which the comparison breaks down I’d never have got onto questions 2 and 3.

@ pug

insist it is not a Men’s Rights Organization when it clearly is.

You were asked to provide any examples of where 1 in 6 themselves have claimed to be a men’s rights organisation. You have failed to do so. You have also failed to provide any examples of where 1 in 6 even talk about men’s rights.

Instead, and contrary to all evidence, you merely state that it self-evidently is. I would however suggest you are wrong. It’s a fine organisation, and does much to help men. However support organisations are not necessarily rights organisations.

To give what might seem a trite, but hopefully clear, example. There are two particular organisations I support. One is a donkey sanctuary. It provides care and support for animals; but that’s it. The other is called SPANA. That’s an organisation concerned with the welfare of working animals. It facilitates practical support and help for animals. However it also campaigns for better conditions for working animals through education and legislation.

I think SPANA can justifiably be called an animal rights organisation, whereas the donkey sanctuary can’t. Do you see the distinction?

About PUGsquestions:
1. Making people aware of of problem that exist. Giving readers a sense that they aren’t alone. Point out horrible behavour of human beeings. Give people who are hurt of them a place where they can talk. Make people less likly to join because who wants to be among idiots. And last but not least to give people somethink to laugh at because that makes the villains less dangerous.
(Just on the top of my head, others can probably post more)

2. If they aren’t making a wrong first impresion:
“Welcome, have a cookie.”
Sorry, but I think there a quite a few regulars here that fit that discription. I disagree btw that a man has to be x or a woman has to be y, that is one of the big problems of society.

3. The problem here is that words can chance meanings and there is a lot of bad thinks that define themselve as Men’s Right Organisations. You are talking about a group that wants to help victims of a crime (here exspecially male victims). From what I get (from only reading coments here not doing any resarch) they are in good terms with groups that work for female victims.
What people here want is to difference between something like 1in6, who are doing somethink great and helpful and groups that are there to harm women.
To goal of the posters here is clear: Don’t get 1in6 in a pot with MRO, because that either harm the organisation that is helpful or gives some evil people cover.

About Feminism: Yepp, dictionarys are not a great way to define movements. But you were talking with people how the definite themselves. There is a difference.
Are there some people who discrip themselves as feminist and post stuff that is anti-men, yes. There is a danger there that people got into extrems.

MAJORITY OF MEN WHO HAVE DIFFICULTY with socialization…

are not the topic of this blog. On of the topics is that getting into incels or listening to Pickupartist won’t help them with their problems.
The incelcomunity only makes them worse.
The Pickupartist will help them only to get one-night-stands (and often only if they don’t care about consent)

A good lasting relationship or getting happy are not what one can get from this areas, they make the problem worse.

I apload you that you feel compesion for those people, will make one point:
Some of those post make that really difficult. Like in “I am happy, I have never meet you, I would be very afraid of you, and I not even one of the persons you hate.” kind of way.
It is also more easy to feel compesion to someone you know, we see only the posts, not the person.
Personally I am not feeling anythink for the milder posts. But anyone who has fantasys about killing people the don’t even know, makes me angry. I try to stay calm, but sorry those postings make them …

Sorry this post took a long time (had somethink else to do) so it will be ninjad a lot.

What Pug is doing is called “sea lioning”, asking seemingly simple questions. The problem is that Pug will then ask more questions, once his original questions are answered. He will want terms defined and will argue over the definitions. He will move goalposts. His goal ideally is to have the whole forum focused on him. Ignore him.

But does my “involuntary celibacy” or “involuntary loneliness” also mean I am less than dirt? Because this site does NOTHING to differentiate between men who are simply lonely and men who are on those awful forums, that is a conclusion that can and does easily get drawn.

Nobody owes you sex or companionship.

If you want to reclaims terms like “men’s rights” or “incel” from those who enthuse about misogyny, abuse, rape and murder of women, perhaps you should start by visiting the forums of the manosphere, and maybe asking them to tone it down a bit. If you’re not prepared to do that, then maybe you should distance yourself from those brands. 1in6 don’t call themselves a “men’s rights organisation” for a pretty good reason, I’d say.

And seriously, dude. This site quotes fucking awful people saying (and doing) fucking awful things. If you cannot be differentiated from those fucking awful people, then maybe you should perhaps be less fucking awful. If you’re not fucking awful, then there’s no danger of you being mistaken for the subject of this blog. Unless you go around loudly saying “I’m an incel”, which, y’know, nobody is making you do.

(also, it would behoove you to not come into a fairly feminist space and complain about how feminists aren’t doing enough for men. that seldom goes down well. have a think about why)

Oh, Pug’s post is just regurgitated from the last thread he joined in, presumably after he decided that he didn’t like any of the answers he got and thought he might do better the second time around.

Probably not worth engaging with even for fun; too self-absorbed. Trolly troll troll troll indeed.