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antifeminism men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny oppressed men white knights women's suffrage

The “White Knight” accusation against feminist men is as old as this anti-Suffrage postcard

What a white knight mangina cuck lol

By David Futrelle

Pretty much any time a dude says anything vaguely positive about feminism, or women, or a particular woman online, some idiot will pop up to accuse him of being a “white knight” who’s only pretending to be feminist in order to get laid.

And while, yes, there is a certain subset of skeezy dudes who do pull this crap (Lush’s Ladykillers video skewers them expertly) this accusation is mostly just a way for antifeminists to put feminist dudes on the defensive — and to keep from acknowledging that, yes, lots of people, including men, actually support feminism on its merits.

This early 20th century anti-Suffrage postcard reminds us again just how hackneyed the cries of “white knight” really are.

To put this postcard in a little context, here are some other anti-suffrage postcards from around the same time. You may notice that some of their “arguments” are similar to those of 21st century antifeminists as well.

 

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Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@amy
Nothing anyone says makes you any less deserving of life. You deserve to live, and you deserve to be heard. And we’re listening. And there are so many other people who’d love to listen too. Your words here have been powerful, words are always our most powerful tool. To reach each other, to understand. For expressing pain and emptiness and despair, but also for finding support and catharsis and, maybe someday soon, hope. You are deserving, you are supported, you are powerful. In the face of all this, you are strong. And that gives me hope. We’re listening <3

Imperator Kahlo
Imperator Kahlo
4 years ago

Amy,

from one depressive woman to another, please decide to hang on for now. Think of the friends and loved ones around you who would miss you dreadfully, and seek out media that celebrates all people, not just white men. I adore Mad Max: Fury Road for this. I’ve also found Jessica Jones on Netflix to be helpful, but it could be very triggering if you are a SA survivor or have issues with alcohol dependence. Just remember that the culture we live in harms us all. You are not alone in this. Just hang on a bit longer, then a bit longer. Eventually, we will grind them down.

Edit: you are so fucking valuable and precious.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ Amy

I can’t do any better than to endorse what people have already said. I can understand how a constant bombardment of messages like that can suggest a certain impression; but it’s not true. You do have worth and value. Might I suggest you stick around here for a bit and just chat. Tell us a little about yourself maybe, if you feel up to it. Remember, the people responsible for those messages don’t know you at all, but we’d like to.

Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
4 years ago

@Amy Please, please, please don’t hurt yourself. I know it can be overwhelming at times, but we’re all here for you. One of the things I love about this site is the way we help each other through the bad days.

I hope a bucket of sloths helps a bit.

Nequam
Nequam
4 years ago

Although I’ve wrestled with depression myself, it leaves me curiously at a loss for things to say that haven’t been said already. But do try and hang on. I wish I knew what might be a good anodyne for you. I know what is for me: classical music (Bach especially), and kittens– there are some pretty good live streams here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeL2LSl91k2VccR7XEh5IKg

Makroth - wild west firecracker window-smashing soap-averse unionized cowboy Jacobin from Hell
Makroth - wild west firecracker window-smashing soap-averse unionized cowboy Jacobin from Hell
4 years ago

I feel like the last one drops all pretenses. It perfectly illustrates how petty and frightened the artists of this propaganda are.

Mallir
Mallir
4 years ago

I find most of the things that are said today by these groups to just be rehashing in modern language things that have been said since at least the pamphlets of Swetnam in the early 1600s.

If you can unravel the old phrasing, what he writes is very little different than what you see today.

https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/objects/lse:sim568qag for the digitized version of his book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swetnam for a synopsis.

I always use the rebuttals to him when people say feminism is a modern thing. Rachel Spegt is the most well known of the respondents
http://www.luminarium.org/renascence-editions/rachel.html

Others wrote responses to him under pseudonyms
http://www.luminarium.org/renascence-editions/ester.htm

TLDR: There is nothing new in misogyny under the sun.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

@amy

I’ve been there. That’s why I won’t tell you to look for the things that give life meaning, because I don’t know your life and I don’t know if anything in it now gives it meaning for you. But I will say this: the future is bright with possibilities. There are a lot of things, amazing things, that I would have missed if I’d killed myself back when I felt like doing it.

Please call 1-800-273-8255 if you are in the US to talk to the suicide hotline. If calling someone intimidates you, they have a chat system now at

http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineChat.aspx

You need and deserve care for this disease. Borrow some hope from Future You, the you who survived this and lives a brilliant life, and reach out to someone who can help to make sure that you turn into Future You.

Ami
Ami
4 years ago

@ Amy:

I get how you feel, as a trans woman with anxiety, and a whole host of other disabilities. Shit’s tough out there right now, but this is why we have a community. Please, don’t kill yourself. Reposting above information if it helps.

Please call 1-800-273-8255 if you are in the US to talk to the suicide hotline. If calling someone intimidates you, they have a chat system now at

http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineChat.aspx

Violet the Vile, Possessor of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
Violet the Vile, Possessor of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
4 years ago

@amy

Please don’t hurt yourself.

I think a lot of other people on here have covered what I would like to say regarding depression. But I would like to add a couple of things about the opinions we read on here.

The thing that always strikes me about these guys is they act as if they have authority – as if their opinions are backed up by fact, by every right thinking person, by God and all the angels, etc etc blasé blah blah. When you hear that it is actually difficult not to internalise it. Someone who speaks with authority can sound as if they speak with power and as if they are laying down the law when they are, in fact, just expressing an opinion.

Please remember that their opinion is worth no more than yours. These people believe power is a force – it exists within people, ie a so called alpha male is innately powerful and strong. And because they have such certainty about that, they manage to convince other people too.

However, it’s not true. Power is not a force, it is a dynamic. The only reason anyone has any power is either because other people agree they do (the only reason I do what my manager says is because I have agreed to an arrangement where she tells me what to do. If I decided to stop obeying, she would stop having power. Of course, I would also be shortly out of a job, but that would be a consequence of my own decisions) or because they have resorted to violence.

Saying a thing – or even shouting it in caps on the internet – does not make it true. I could stand on a street corner and shout “The sky is pink!” at people, and then call them white knight manginas when they disagree. Would it be true?

These people are full of shit. They have no evidence for their claims, no capacity for a reasoned debate, fucking hell they don’t even have a sensible argument haha! Why should we listen? Come back with some logic, dick heads, and then we’ll talk. (SPOILER: the reason this never happens and they just resort to hurling abuse is because the moment you start applying actual logic the whole thing falls down and they know that as well as I do)

Don’t get me wrong. I know it’s hard, especially when you are feeling rough and you have internalised all this crap, but you do not have to pay attention when they shout at you. I know they keep telling you that you MUST LISTEN TO ALL OF THEIR OPINIONS. I know they use that lordly “setting the world to rights” tone, and they make flat statements like: “this is how women are,” and I know that we as women are conditioned by society from the fucking cradle, in a million subtle ways, to defer to the male opinion.

It’s crap. All of that is crap. It’s unsubstantiated opinions dressed up in a veneer of pseudo-authority.

There are only two types of people whose opinion you need to care about: 1) people who are directly in a position to make your life difficult (landlord, manager, police, doctor, general authorities) and 2) people you love, like, respect or otherwise care about. I don’t think these guys fall into either of those categories for you, so frankly they are irrelevant.

Please try and talk to someone. Your feelings deserve to be listened to, and I hope you can get this poison out of your system.

xx

latsot
latsot
4 years ago

@amy, I’ve been there too, so often that I have a parking permit. You are not alone. There are people here who wish you well and want to help.

This is true everywhere else, too. Those horrible hateful people are tiny dots in between vast swathes of people who care about other people. Their voices and reach are exaggerated. This blog distills those voices because that’s David’s job, but for every one of the horrible fucktangles there are still countless more people who care.

Most people don’t want others to suffer and will do what they can to help. It took me about 30 years to learn that. It took me even longer to learn to ask for help.

If you need help, *ask* for it. From people or organisations you trust. There are countless people who will put everything aside for a while to listen to you. You wouldn’t be putting them out, they want to help.

You are valued by more people than you think.

Violet the Vile, Possessor of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
Violet the Vile, Possessor of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
4 years ago

OMG I didn’t realise how long that was. Sorry everyone. I have never been particularly good at making a point in short form :/

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

@amy:

I’ve been there too. I remember how hard it is to slog out of bed when it doesn’t feel like there’s anything worth facing. It’s horrible and I would not wish it upon my worst enemy.

Here’s the thing: when you’re depressed, your brain is lying to you. The world isn’t awful, it’s just that your brain says it is, and you have no information about the world that isn’t coming from your brain.

This can be treated, whether that be via counselling or medication. Please consider seeking treatment, or calling the helplines that others have posted. You’re not alone, and you do not suffer alone.

What follows is just advice that worked for me. I’m not going to presume that it will work for you, but I feel that I should do whatever I can to help you, and that includes sharing how I got out.

Find an emotional constant, and use that to judge the extent to which your brain is lying to you.

For example, I used to have to walk past a group of Hare Krishnas every day on the way to work. Some days I would listen to them and be happy because they were obviously so joyful. Other days I would be very irritated by them. They didn’t change from day to day: what changed was my brain. They were an emotional constant. When they were annoying, it meant that my brain was telling me lies about the world. When they were uplifting, it meant that my brain was letting me see clearly. This let me begin to understand what the world is actually like beyond the brainlies.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@amy
I’ve also been there. You matter. I know it’s hard and you’re tired and hurting, or maybe you’re even numb. That’s all okay to feel. As was mentioned before, depression lies. I know getting through this might seem like an insurmountable task right now, but you can do it. You are incredibly strong.

I’m not saying that to bullshit you. And it’s not an empty platitude. I don’t know you, but I know what depression does and I know how much strength it takes to get through the day when you have it. Just getting up in the morning takes a lot. Hell, just lying in bed all day because you can’t do it takes strength. These dudes who push down women, who snivel about us being allowed in the workforce and constantly try to “proove” we don’t belong? They’re the weak ones. They couldn’t handle a day in your skin. You are strong and you can get through this. You already took the first step by sharing your thoughts with us instead of keeping them in.

We might have some additional resources if you share more details about yourself. For example, if you’re a woman in tech I’ve got a great Facebook group you can join. It’s full of women boosting each other, asking questions, sharing what they’re working on, etc.

One last thing, I wanted to share a blog that helps me when depression starts lying to me: http://positivedoodles.tumblr.com/

Anna
Anna
4 years ago

Amy, hope you feel better. Therapy has really helped me personally.

“only pretending to be feminist in order to get laid.” – how would that even work? Like, do they think a female feminist feels obligated to reward male feminists with casual sex? Or are they thinking of getting into a relationship with her where they perpetually pretend to be a feminist (and possibly to have other good qualities as well) so she’ll like them? That sounds pretty much impossible for a misogynist to pull off for years.

Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
4 years ago

@Anna

Like, do they think a female feminist feels obligated to reward male feminists with casual sex?

Yes, they do. This is a mindset that holds that women exist only as sex objects, and men need only find the behavior that a given woman likes to see, engage in it, and gleeful sex is certain to follow.

No, really, they actually believe that!

Yeah, it seems absurd to me, too.

ETA: Hasanyone heard from Amy? Hope they’re ok.

SinisterPigeon: Sombrero Golem
SinisterPigeon: Sombrero Golem
4 years ago

@Amy

Hey I really hope you are OK and I am sorry for missing you last night. I just wanted to echo what everyone else has been saying. I have been in that darkness too but I really hope you reach out to someone who can help you.

I don’t really know you yet, but I would like to. I want to meet future you too and if that means you need to borrow hope from them in order to make it please do. There are many ugly people in the world but you are a light Amy. Don’t let them snuff out your light with their ugliness because I have faith that you are stronger then them. I don’t have any resources other then the ones shared but we are here if you need us. Please be safe. And let us know how you are doing. I imagine we are all worried sick about you.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
4 years ago

@Amy, everyone has already said so much. I’ll be brief. Don’t feel guilty. It’s okay to feel your feelings. I’ve struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts too. Lots of people do, it’s incredibly common. These feelings distort how you see the world, making it seem dark and hopeless. That’ll pass.

You are not your depression. It isn’t a permanent part of you, even though it can feel like it is. Give that phone number a call – tell them you don’t know what to say or how to say it, if you aren’t sure. Give them a call. They”ll help you. And you’re worth the effort <3

Andreas
Andreas
4 years ago

@Amy

Stay with us. You are worthy.

Do not listen to your depression.
Do not listen to the vapid media who mistake cruelty for humor.
Do not listen to the horrible people who drown their own humanity in hate.
They are lying. All of them.

You enrich us. Just knowing that you exist and that you reject the hate and bigotry that consumes so much of the world, is like seeing a bright light in the darkness.

Please, be that light.

Stay with us. Please.

JS
JS
4 years ago

Amy (and anyone else having a bad time with this ridiculous political landscape)

If you’re in the US, there’s also a “text-message based” help line. Send a text to 741741. You’re not alone.

Falconer
Falconer
4 years ago

Amy, I can’t speak out of experience with depression, so I will second everyone saying you are valuable and you are loved. I hope you’re okay.

Citizen Rat
Citizen Rat
4 years ago

@Amy

You matter. This place would diminish without you. Please stay.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

@amy, n’thing what many of the others have said – I know what you mean about feeling too ground down – coming here can be great (sometimes I don’t even look at the quotes from the MRAs and suchlike if it’s not a good time; I just come straight down and read the brilliant/cool/interesting/funny and informative comments from David and the regulars first).
You know, if and only if you want to – maybe say a word or two about what you want, what might be helpful to you? Then maybe people could say more/more useful things. I have someone close to me struggling with depression and sometimes I would give an awful lot just to know how best to support them :-\

cornychips
cornychips
4 years ago

Amy, we care for you. please think about everything the commenters have written. They are serious in their concern.

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
4 years ago

@Amy

What everyone said x10000000000000. <3

-from a fellow depression sufferer

…and a bit of cuteness:
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