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no trolls allowed open thread

Politics Open Thread! Special Election O’Reilly Downfall Wandering Aircraft Carrier Edition

Woah!

There are so many amazing things going on politically at the moment — amazing good, amazing bad, just plain gobstopping — that I figured, hey, let’s do an open thread before we’re all blown up in World War III or something.

No trolls!

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Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
5 years ago

@Turtle

my view was that you did act as an apologist because your arguments aligned with those of the establishment of the Dem Party

Why is having similar arguments ‘apologism’ and not ‘agreement’? Food for thought

Frankly though I can see that my current knowledge of US politics is not strong enough to hold up my end of this argument

True, buy it’s not your lack of political knowledge that’s getting you into trouble…

I cede victory to you

I’ll assume you’re not meaning to be a jackass here. For future reference, ceding victory to someone online is considered tacky unless they explicitly seek a ‘win’. I’m not trying to beat you. Mostly, I’m just tryna figure out what you’re even talking about thru the buzzwords

Instead ill go read some more

Good idea. Come back when you think you’re better equipped to discuss this. I’ve got nowhere I need to be

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Turtle
You’re giving me a terrible headache, but since you’re going around trying to move people left, I’m gonna try to explain how you’re fucking up, k?

Dreemr, absolutely in the here and now claiming you can’t ‘see’ identity and the reality that identity does in fact shape the lived experience of people would be as foolish as denying the reality of class.

OK, this is a good start.

Where I think Eve is coming from is that capitalism is responsible for the oppression of many different identities, including the working class itself.

While capitalism reinforces systemic oppression, systemic oppression predates capitalism and exists in many non-capitalist societies, present and historical.

If the working class can overcome its oppression by defeating capitalism,

And then you take a turn straight into jackassery, because there is no unified working class. You know why? Systemic bigotry. If your revolution isn’t intersectional, it’s doomed from the get go. Before you’re gonna get a unified working class, men (especially revolutionary men) need to stop shitting on women, whites (especially revolutionary whites) need to stop shitting on PoCs, straights (you get the idea) on queers, etc. That needs to happen first, because until it does, there will be zero fucking trust on the part of oppressed groups, because the white working class has a long history of being utterly horrible to them. And I especially include the fucking unions in that.

we have laid the foundation to live our lives however we wish to, and eventually identity in that sense would cease to exist.

No it damn well wouldn’t. This is a seriously asinine thing to say, and you need badly to stop saying it. Even in the Worker’s Paradise where everyone has their material needs met and there are no bosses, I’m not gonna be any less trans or queer than I am now, and there’s nothing about universal income and no bosses that’s gonna stop people from giving me shit for that. A worker’s coop is perfectly capable of a culture of casual racism that functionally excludes black people. And even leaving active bigotry aside, identities are still gonna matter. I still need my hormones, regardless. Ethnic background isn’t just a check mark on a census form, it’s a way of cooking, a way of talking, a way of being a person that’s got its own unique characteristics, and those are very fucking important to people, and they’re not going anywhere anytime soon.

Weirwood asked whose identity do we assimilate with? None, we become human beings fully free of capitalism and the boxed in identities it demands.

I already kind of addressed this above, so, yeah, just knock this one off, wouldya?

Scented, absolutely, no one could reasonably expect anything less of any member of an attacked identity. I don’t claim homophobia would cease to exist the day capitalism was defeated, but it would sure be a great milestone to that goal.

Other way round; you gotta fight homophobia, racism, etc. first, then take on capitalism.

Policy, couldn’t agree more, identities are more imposed than adopted. You comment that society does the imposing, I think more specifically capitalism does.

Yes, but you’re fundamentally wrong.

This probably sounds like pie in the sky thinking given the actual reality of the world as it is now, but things can change quickly. 100 years ago one day there was a Russian monarchy that ruled with brutal impunity for centuries. The next day it was gone forever

Replaced by an autocracy that ruled with brutal impunity and ill-fitting suits. Such a dramatic change. First rule of discussing this kind of thing: NEVER, EVER cite the USSR as a positive example. Just fucking don’t.

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